Ebay woes, spleen venting

**LaurenOE** · 08-16-2011, 11:18 AM

When I sold my K7 and the buyer was not happy, I did a few emails back and forth via the eBay mail system to try and work things out. When I realized that my buyer was trying to twist the transaction in his favor, I put an end to it and said that I was sorry and that our emails should cease and he should seek out resolution through the official channels.

He tried to reverse the PayPal amount and everything. He even lied that we had no contact before he opened an official complaint.

Good thing I kept all our correspondence in eBay and not through personal email!

It is against eBay policy for a buyer/seller to threaten negative feedback or work the details of a transaction outside of the resolution center or eBay.

So, my recommendation is don't sweat your reputation since eBay will see if the buyer is trying to extort you or take advantage.

The cool thing is that eBay does have real people working to resolve things. The eBay folks know what buyer's remorse is and shut it down pretty quick.

Everything comes down to the description of the item you sold. The more details you put in the description, the more you have to back them up.

If you have followed your part of the bargain, then eBay will side with you.

Stop letting a buyer push you around. If you have honored your end of the bargain, stop the games. If he leaves negative feedback, have eBay remove it.

JeffJS · 08-16-2011, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by hoojammyflip

The guy has come back telling me he has bought two of the same, and that neither are what he expected. There is no knowing the expectations of a buyer. No doubt I end up selling my stuff for more by offering a returns policy, but it won't cover the cost of postage if buyers are going to do this to me. He has also come back saying he wants some time to think about it!

Anyone know at what time frame I can reject a request for a return? I think its two weeks for a normal sale in the UK, but in this case, as its an auction, and as I have offered a return, it might be different. I had never thought I would encounter a situation where a buyer is unsure whether they want to return an item...either you do or you don't, right? So I haven't put a drop dead date in the returns terms.

I would tell him to go pound sand right now. Either he wants the lens or he doesn't. 2 or 3 days is more than a reasonable inspection time. He Bought a used Lens, had Opportunity to ask questions before doing so, and now wants you to sit and wait while he 'makes up his mind'? F him. Technically, I believe he has 45 days to make a claim with paypal. If you delivered what was pictured and described and did so in a timely manor, he has nothing to bitch about.

**LaurenOE** · 08-16-2011, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by JeffJS

I would tell him to go pound sand right now. Either he wants the lens or he doesn't. 2 or 3 days is more than a reasonable inspection time. He Bought a used Lens, had Opportunity to ask questions before doing so, and now wants you to sit and wait while he 'makes up his mind'? F him. Technically, I believe he has 45 days to make a claim with paypal. If you delivered what was pictured and described and did so in a timely manor, he has nothing to bitch about.

I agree 100%.

magkelly · 08-16-2011, 08:10 PM

You know I wish there was a way to know which lens was which. This guy, he's admitted he's bought two copies. He could just switch out a bad copy for your good one, and claim it's defective. I bet that's what he's trying to do. Be careful, and when you get that lens back inspect it carefully. Make sure he isn't trying to pull a fast one...

whojammyflip · 08-16-2011, 11:08 PM

I had a look at his feedback and the other seller has already left feedback for him...maybe I should contact that seller and find out what the score is for him. The odd thing is that the second lens is a Minolta mount!

Maybe I contact ebay with my concerns.

JeffJS · 08-16-2011, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by hoojammyflip

I had a look at his feedback and the other seller has already left feedback for him...maybe I should contact that seller and find out what the score is for him. The odd thing is that the second lens is a Minolta mount!

Maybe I contact ebay with my concerns.

Let him do it. You've done your job. Not what He expected. Well, WTF did he expect? I don't know what this lens cost but I'll guarantee you're spending more time getting your drawers in a bunch over this guy than he's worth. Of course, my advice here may have the exact value to you of what you are paying for it.

People like this guy are the reason I don't offer refunds.

whojammyflip · 08-17-2011, 12:00 AM

Thanks Jeff. I wrote the following to him, and will leave it at that. I think I need to move off the 35mm kit and into 645 territory soon anyway!

Please can you let me know what you are doing with the Vivitar 28/2 lens. You have had the lens for more than a week now.

To summarise the events to date:
a) you contact me after the sale asking for the lens to be posted the same day as the auction closes, for delivery the following day, which is a Saturday
b) I note that I cannot deliver on the same day as the sale, and from the terms in the listing, delivery cannot be expected sooner than Tuesday, as postage is within one business day
c) I post the lens, in a sealed freezer bag, with silica gel and sufficient foam padding to ensure safe transit, with a leather pouch included in a padded envelope
d) you contact me telling me the lens has dust in it, and I immediately offer a refund, irrespective of whether there is dust in the lens, including postage out of goodwill
e) you contact me again, telling me that you have in fact purchased two of these lenses and you are still making your mind up about what you want to do

Step e) is taking advantage of me. I tolerated your odd initial emails, but this is now unreasonable behaviour. I will no longer pay for your postage and stand by my postage terms, in the original auction for the lens. A small amount of dust is expected in a lens which was made in 1979; 32 years ago. I described the glass as being clean, not clear of any dust at all. Due to the relatively fast f2 aperture (this is particularly fast for 28mm), contrast appears low when wide open, but sharpens up rapidly at f4. Here is a review on the web, noting this aspect of this lens. theatre of noise: Vivitar K11 On Test.

Typically this lens sells for in excess of GBP 50, so you managed to buy it about GBP 10 cheaper than normal, getting lucky on the day. I have found dealing with you to be very difficult, so future communication is to be done through the resolution centre.

JeffJS · 08-17-2011, 12:29 AM

Someone earlier said he may be looking for a partial/full refund and to keep the lens by complaining about the condition 'not meeting expectations'. Based on all you've written in this thread, I think the guy is giving you the run around. If you wouldn't mind forwarding his ebay ID to me in a PM, I would like to add him to my blocked bidder list so that he may keep company with the rest of the a-holes on ebay.

whojammyflip · 08-17-2011, 02:46 AM

The guy just wrote back, saying he was keeping the lens. No note apologising for the trouble. One for the banned buyers list.

Ebay should track buyer's counts of being placed on banned buyers lists. Would give them an indication of who the trouble makers are. Maybe they already do.

xjjohnno · 08-17-2011, 03:30 AM

Ebay need buyers to get their revenue so don't expect them to compile too large a bad buyers list. They don't seem to get too fussed about dodgy sellers either as that reduces the commissions as well.

whojammyflip · 08-17-2011, 04:05 AM

Not so sure about this at all, xjjohno. If trust falls away in a market, buyers bid less aggressively, fewer people use the service, sellers become more likely to seek alternative markets etc etc. I bet Ebay's revenues have increased dramatically since their introduction of the "resolution centre" which means that disputes are officially arbitrated. I am pretty certain that Ebay try to balance red tape with ensuring market transparency and fairness. One issue though, which I think they could do more to resolve is shill bidding.

xjjohnno · 08-17-2011, 05:28 AM

Perhaps I'm too cynical. When I see some of the not so reputable traders still there after a few years I have my reservations about the integrity of Ebay.
For me the last 30 second bidding frenzy gets annoying but I can't see Ebay doing anuthing about that either. As for shill bidding, a rule I use for bidding is not going beyond what I would consider a fair price. If someone wants to pay more for the item then good on them and it is all theirs. One thing I did find hilarious was when items like mobile phones were selling over their retail price as BINs for identical items. Was that bidding frenzy ofr shill bidding, I don't know, but the end result is decide on the worth of the product and forget the win/lose mentallity and you will get what you want at a fair price.

K-9 · 08-17-2011, 08:24 AM

When selling used lenses, there will always be a speck or two of dust inside, so I would always list them with "may have dust specks inside". This way, the buyer can't return it for a not as described reason.

whojammyflip · 08-17-2011, 09:51 AM

yeah, maybe I should stick something a little sarcastic in, like please no morons

Maybe its something to do with K mount lenses...I am starting to think I should have gone with Olympus simply because the old Zuiko lenses dont fit on modern cameras...ha! Unlikely. I guess Ebay just attracts an unusually high proportion of a-holes.

Its not been my week on Ebay, as a buyer of a ME Super was insistent I send it to a different address to that listed with his Paypal. he had me running around in circles, rearranging my auctions so he could bid on the lot etc. Then he paid way over the odds for the ME Super, about USD 45. When I told him "no, update your Paypal account", he started getting obstreperous, and in the end it went to the resolution centre...I had been offering him a refund all along, and that's how the thing was resolved. In the resolution centre claim, he started bad mouthing me, saying I was in effect trying to get a free reserve price in my listing. Its almost like my auctions have a virtual "kick me" sign attached.

whojammyflip · 08-17-2011, 09:56 AM

oh no, I've relisted it and the same dude is trying to buy it off me, after having behaved like a muppet. i give in. I should have added him into the BBL prior to hitting relist. ARRRRHGHHHH!!

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08-16-2011, 11:18 AM	#16
LaurenOE Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Back in Florida, but worldwide gigs! Photos: Albums Posts: 3,690	When I sold my K7 and the buyer was not happy, I did a few emails back and forth via the eBay mail system to try and work things out. When I realized that my buyer was trying to twist the transaction in his favor, I put an end to it and said that I was sorry and that our emails should cease and he should seek out resolution through the official channels. He tried to reverse the PayPal amount and everything. He even lied that we had no contact before he opened an official complaint. Good thing I kept all our correspondence in eBay and not through personal email! It is against eBay policy for a buyer/seller to threaten negative feedback or work the details of a transaction outside of the resolution center or eBay. So, my recommendation is don't sweat your reputation since eBay will see if the buyer is trying to extort you or take advantage. The cool thing is that eBay does have real people working to resolve things. The eBay folks know what buyer's remorse is and shut it down pretty quick. Everything comes down to the description of the item you sold. The more details you put in the description, the more you have to back them up. If you have followed your part of the bargain, then eBay will side with you. Stop letting a buyer push you around. If you have honored your end of the bargain, stop the games. If he leaves negative feedback, have eBay remove it.

08-16-2011, 02:03 PM	#17
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by hoojammyflip The guy has come back telling me he has bought two of the same, and that neither are what he expected. There is no knowing the expectations of a buyer. No doubt I end up selling my stuff for more by offering a returns policy, but it won't cover the cost of postage if buyers are going to do this to me. He has also come back saying he wants some time to think about it! Anyone know at what time frame I can reject a request for a return? I think its two weeks for a normal sale in the UK, but in this case, as its an auction, and as I have offered a return, it might be different. I had never thought I would encounter a situation where a buyer is unsure whether they want to return an item...either you do or you don't, right? So I haven't put a drop dead date in the returns terms. I would tell him to go pound sand right now. Either he wants the lens or he doesn't. 2 or 3 days is more than a reasonable inspection time. He Bought a used Lens, had Opportunity to ask questions before doing so, and now wants you to sit and wait while he 'makes up his mind'? F him. Technically, I believe he has 45 days to make a claim with paypal. If you delivered what was pictured and described and did so in a timely manor, he has nothing to bitch about.

08-16-2011, 05:21 PM	#18
LaurenOE Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Back in Florida, but worldwide gigs! Photos: Albums Posts: 3,690	Originally posted by JeffJS I would tell him to go pound sand right now. Either he wants the lens or he doesn't. 2 or 3 days is more than a reasonable inspection time. He Bought a used Lens, had Opportunity to ask questions before doing so, and now wants you to sit and wait while he 'makes up his mind'? F him. Technically, I believe he has 45 days to make a claim with paypal. If you delivered what was pictured and described and did so in a timely manor, he has nothing to bitch about. I agree 100%.

08-16-2011, 08:10 PM	#19
magkelly Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,901	You know I wish there was a way to know which lens was which. This guy, he's admitted he's bought two copies. He could just switch out a bad copy for your good one, and claim it's defective. I bet that's what he's trying to do. Be careful, and when you get that lens back inspect it carefully. Make sure he isn't trying to pull a fast one...

08-16-2011, 11:08 PM	#20
whojammyflip Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 417 Original Poster	I had a look at his feedback and the other seller has already left feedback for him...maybe I should contact that seller and find out what the score is for him. The odd thing is that the second lens is a Minolta mount! Maybe I contact ebay with my concerns.

08-16-2011, 11:44 PM	#21
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by hoojammyflip I had a look at his feedback and the other seller has already left feedback for him...maybe I should contact that seller and find out what the score is for him. The odd thing is that the second lens is a Minolta mount! Maybe I contact ebay with my concerns. Let him do it. You've done your job. Not what He expected. Well, WTF did he expect? I don't know what this lens cost but I'll guarantee you're spending more time getting your drawers in a bunch over this guy than he's worth. Of course, my advice here may have the exact value to you of what you are paying for it. People like this guy are the reason I don't offer refunds.

08-17-2011, 12:00 AM	#22
whojammyflip Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 417 Original Poster	Thanks Jeff. I wrote the following to him, and will leave it at that. I think I need to move off the 35mm kit and into 645 territory soon anyway! Please can you let me know what you are doing with the Vivitar 28/2 lens. You have had the lens for more than a week now. To summarise the events to date: a) you contact me after the sale asking for the lens to be posted the same day as the auction closes, for delivery the following day, which is a Saturday b) I note that I cannot deliver on the same day as the sale, and from the terms in the listing, delivery cannot be expected sooner than Tuesday, as postage is within one business day c) I post the lens, in a sealed freezer bag, with silica gel and sufficient foam padding to ensure safe transit, with a leather pouch included in a padded envelope d) you contact me telling me the lens has dust in it, and I immediately offer a refund, irrespective of whether there is dust in the lens, including postage out of goodwill e) you contact me again, telling me that you have in fact purchased two of these lenses and you are still making your mind up about what you want to do Step e) is taking advantage of me. I tolerated your odd initial emails, but this is now unreasonable behaviour. I will no longer pay for your postage and stand by my postage terms, in the original auction for the lens. A small amount of dust is expected in a lens which was made in 1979; 32 years ago. I described the glass as being clean, not clear of any dust at all. Due to the relatively fast f2 aperture (this is particularly fast for 28mm), contrast appears low when wide open, but sharpens up rapidly at f4. Here is a review on the web, noting this aspect of this lens. theatre of noise: Vivitar K11 On Test. Typically this lens sells for in excess of GBP 50, so you managed to buy it about GBP 10 cheaper than normal, getting lucky on the day. I have found dealing with you to be very difficult, so future communication is to be done through the resolution centre.

08-17-2011, 12:29 AM	#23
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Someone earlier said he may be looking for a partial/full refund and to keep the lens by complaining about the condition 'not meeting expectations'. Based on all you've written in this thread, I think the guy is giving you the run around. If you wouldn't mind forwarding his ebay ID to me in a PM, I would like to add him to my blocked bidder list so that he may keep company with the rest of the a-holes on ebay.

08-17-2011, 02:46 AM	#24
whojammyflip Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 417 Original Poster	The guy just wrote back, saying he was keeping the lens. No note apologising for the trouble. One for the banned buyers list. Ebay should track buyer's counts of being placed on banned buyers lists. Would give them an indication of who the trouble makers are. Maybe they already do.

08-17-2011, 03:30 AM	#25
xjjohnno Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,115	Ebay need buyers to get their revenue so don't expect them to compile too large a bad buyers list. They don't seem to get too fussed about dodgy sellers either as that reduces the commissions as well.

08-17-2011, 04:05 AM	#26
whojammyflip Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 417 Original Poster	Not so sure about this at all, xjjohno. If trust falls away in a market, buyers bid less aggressively, fewer people use the service, sellers become more likely to seek alternative markets etc etc. I bet Ebay's revenues have increased dramatically since their introduction of the "resolution centre" which means that disputes are officially arbitrated. I am pretty certain that Ebay try to balance red tape with ensuring market transparency and fairness. One issue though, which I think they could do more to resolve is shill bidding.

08-17-2011, 05:28 AM	#27
xjjohnno Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,115	Perhaps I'm too cynical. When I see some of the not so reputable traders still there after a few years I have my reservations about the integrity of Ebay. For me the last 30 second bidding frenzy gets annoying but I can't see Ebay doing anuthing about that either. As for shill bidding, a rule I use for bidding is not going beyond what I would consider a fair price. If someone wants to pay more for the item then good on them and it is all theirs. One thing I did find hilarious was when items like mobile phones were selling over their retail price as BINs for identical items. Was that bidding frenzy ofr shill bidding, I don't know, but the end result is decide on the worth of the product and forget the win/lose mentallity and you will get what you want at a fair price.

08-17-2011, 08:24 AM	#28
K-9 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: USA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,971	When selling used lenses, there will always be a speck or two of dust inside, so I would always list them with "may have dust specks inside". This way, the buyer can't return it for a not as described reason.

08-17-2011, 09:51 AM	#29
whojammyflip Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 417 Original Poster	yeah, maybe I should stick something a little sarcastic in, like please no morons Maybe its something to do with K mount lenses...I am starting to think I should have gone with Olympus simply because the old Zuiko lenses dont fit on modern cameras...ha! Unlikely. I guess Ebay just attracts an unusually high proportion of a-holes. Its not been my week on Ebay, as a buyer of a ME Super was insistent I send it to a different address to that listed with his Paypal. he had me running around in circles, rearranging my auctions so he could bid on the lot etc. Then he paid way over the odds for the ME Super, about USD 45. When I told him "no, update your Paypal account", he started getting obstreperous, and in the end it went to the resolution centre...I had been offering him a refund all along, and that's how the thing was resolved. In the resolution centre claim, he started bad mouthing me, saying I was in effect trying to get a free reserve price in my listing. Its almost like my auctions have a virtual "kick me" sign attached.

08-17-2011, 09:56 AM	#30
whojammyflip Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 417 Original Poster	oh no, I've relisted it and the same dude is trying to buy it off me, after having behaved like a muppet. i give in. I should have added him into the BBL prior to hitting relist. ARRRRHGHHHH!!