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08-19-2011, 10:37 PM   #16
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That's the moral / personal ethics argument.

There's a resouce / cost argument that goes something like this: it costs extra to deport everyone + even working illegally these people are a net plus to the economy = we are better off letting them stay, and putting them through the legal application process


If you watched your nieghborhood go to shit , had your house broken into5 times in 3 years , dealt with local gun fights on a semi regular basis and knife fights on a very regular basis and had 15 people move into the 2 bedroom house next door to yours your attitude towards illegal immegrants might be different.

Big difference between between people who want to better their lives and do it the right way and pendejo illegals.
BTW does this amnesty apply to illegals from all countries or just Mexico?


Last edited by seacapt; 08-19-2011 at 10:47 PM.
08-19-2011, 10:52 PM   #17
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Just a bit of history.
The same kind of things happened during immigration from Europe, in the first half of the 20th century. Same kind of complaints too.
The weaponry and communications have improved. I guess that's progress for you.
08-20-2011, 04:08 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
"Many illegal immigrants who were facing deportation despite having no criminal record will be allowed to stay in the country and apply for a work permit under new rules from the Homeland Security Department. Republicans are balking at the change."

Uh, I'm balking too. Excuse me? I can't just go to another country illegally, work under the table for a while and then get amnesty and a work permit to stay, so why in heck should illegal immigrants here get to? I have no problem with people coming here legally and getting citizenship the right way but this just plain ridiculous. Why not just open the gates and tell the whole world to come and we'll just grant them all citizenship in one fell swoop. We might as well have....

I've actually looked into emigration to several countries besides the USA. Short of marrying some guy, which I am not too keen on, it would be very hard indeed for me to move away from the USA, period. My work skills just aren't that needed, nor do I have a grandparent that was an immigrant. I am one generation away from that unfortunately. Great-grandparents, yes, but even then I don't have much by way of paperwork and you do need that to prove descent.

If I tried that stunt in most countries in Europe, simply showing up and staying illegally, they'd catch my arse, probably fine me or jail me for a while, then deport me forthwith. Yet, any immigrant who comes here, unless he or she is a convicted felon, can now make a grab for American citizenship regardless of how legal his or her entry into this country was?

This new law makes a total mockery of the whole process of legal immigration, and I am totally opposed to it.
You are against easy immigration for others coming into the USA, but it's something you would like for yourself going to Europe?

You're all immigrants anyway... What made the colonisation of the USA 'legal' in the eyes of native Americans?

08-20-2011, 05:29 AM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by shooz Quote
I hear what you are going through magkelly.


I also recall complaints about Mexicans during that recession too, so it's just cyclical.
What it is, is when times get a bit tough, people look externally to pin the blame on someone.
Instead of blaming the people who should be being blamed (politicians selling out your country to corporate interests, Wall St buying politicians to sell the country back to them at pennies on the dollar, etc), it is much easier to blame Mexicans, especially since your politicians wrap themselves in the flag, and no good American would ever question the motives of someone who would do that.

08-20-2011, 05:30 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
You are against easy immigration for others coming into the USA, but it's something you would like for yourself going to Europe?

You're all immigrants anyway... What made the colonisation of the USA 'legal' in the eyes of native Americans?

How to Solve Illegal Immigration - YouTube
Some more inconvenient questions:

Why are these illegals in the USA - what is the history behind this phenomenon?

Who is hiring all these illegals?

Why are they hiring illegals in lieu of Americans OR why aren't unemployed Americans taking back these jobs?

What would happen to the US economy if ALL illegals were rounded up and sent back?

Who would do the jobs that they have been doing - and at those salaries - and let us have some actual names and volunteers instead of those comfortable, brush the problem away "Americans would come rushing in to take those jobs......." type of answer - which we all know intuitively is a lie.
08-20-2011, 07:55 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The problem I have is that illegal immigration tends to suppress wages. A "living wage" for an immigrant often isn't really a living wage, hence the reason why US citizens aren't running to take these jobs.
Bringing the benefits of outsourcing to our doorsteps.
08-20-2011, 08:02 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevewig Quote
Some more inconvenient questions:

Why are these illegals in the USA - what is the history behind this phenomenon?

Who is hiring all these illegals?

Why are they hiring illegals in lieu of Americans OR why aren't unemployed Americans taking back these jobs?

What would happen to the US economy if ALL illegals were rounded up and sent back?

Who would do the jobs that they have been doing - and at those salaries - and let us have some actual names and volunteers instead of those comfortable, brush the problem away "Americans would come rushing in to take those jobs......." type of answer - which we all know intuitively is a lie.
Or as Rondec noted, the jobs would pay more and there might be citizens who would take them. Trouble is, once this starts, demand just grows. If one restaurant hires only undocumented workers and pays them next to nothing to wash the dishes, all of them feel they have to do it to compete, and we get our race to the bottom.

08-20-2011, 08:53 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Or as Rondec noted, the jobs would pay more and there might be citizens who would take them. Trouble is, once this starts, demand just grows. If one restaurant hires only undocumented workers and pays them next to nothing to wash the dishes, all of them feel they have to do it to compete, and we get our race to the bottom.
In a sentence, do not blame the undocumented workers they are the poor of the earth trying to stay alive and improve their lives by any and all means available.

Blame the system and the people who take advantage of the illegal to improve their own profitability and by doing so make the illegal an important and vital element of the American economy.
08-20-2011, 10:55 AM   #24
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Sometimes, they just do the right thing and tell the truth.
There is a lesson here for the teabaggers.

Man who saved girl says he's illegal immigrant - US news - Life - msnbc.com
08-20-2011, 12:41 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by shooz Quote
Sometimes, they just do the right thing and tell the truth.
There is a lesson here for the teabaggers.

Man who saved girl says he's illegal immigrant - US news - Life - msnbc.com
Watch.. no good deed goes unpunished...........
08-20-2011, 01:47 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
You are against easy immigration for others coming into the USA, but it's something you would like for yourself going to Europe?
I'd just like it to be fair. I'd like it to be the same all over. I sometimes feel like I can't go anywhere but that anyone can come here, legally or not. I don't like that the USA is as lenient as it is when everywhere else almost is not. It seems like we get more people than many other countries do as a result.

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of emigration to other countries, there is, but America's policies on immigration to date have really led to some major problems with jobs, crime, and with people who don't give a hoot about honoring the system that's in place to make them citizens coming here. We have more "teaming masses" than this country can handle and our way of life is suffering a great deal for it.

As for the people that were here before half of Europe decided to colonize this country, no one today thinks that was done to them back then was fair or right, certainly not me, but it's not very likely that the people of this country will just hand the land back over to the native tribes and leave, now is it? Besides, they're actually immigrants too if you want to get technical. You go back far enough and everyone is an immigrant of some sort.
08-20-2011, 11:54 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevewig Quote
In a sentence, do not blame the undocumented
workers they are the poor of the earth trying to stay alive and improve
their lives by any and all means available.
I think we may be using quaint obsolete terms from the 19th century.

Many of these folks are no longer immigrants but refugees. Refugees from failed
States and economies, refugees from failed societies and cultures and
environmental refugees from regions where the natural systems can no
longer sustain such high densities of population. At least some of these
conditions are common all over the third world. Come to think about it
perhaps all these conditions are present in the horn of Africa now.

An immigrant is someone who hopes for a better life a refugee is someone
who hopes to simply survive.

I don't blame these folks for doing what they think is necessary just to
survive nor do I blame the countries of Europe and N. America for having
a siege mentality due to this mass migration.

I don't think that national immigration policy should be thought of as a sort of
welfare program for the poor of the earth. Any given society has
practical limits to how many people it can absorb at any given time.
Immigration policy, in my opinion, should primarily reflect the
parochial interests of the host country out of practical necessity.
Immigration should be at the pleasure and convenience of the host
country no more no less.

It may be that the most practical solution right now is to grandfather
in the 13 million illegals we now have in the States but if so it's just
a realistic admission of a failure to protect our own borders in the first place.

Last edited by wildman; 08-21-2011 at 01:41 AM.
08-21-2011, 05:59 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
.........I don't think that national immigration policy should be thought of as a sort of
welfare program for the poor of the earth. Any given society has
practical limits to how many people it can absorb at any given time.
Immigration policy, in my opinion, should primarily reflect the
parochial interests of the host country out of practical necessity.
Immigration should be at the pleasure and convenience of the host
country no more no less.

It may be that the most practical solution right now is to grandfather
in the 13 million illegals we now have in the States but if so it's just
a realistic admission of a failure to protect our own borders in the first place.
Wildman, I can agree with almost everything you say but you failed to grab at the central point that I was making (or trying to make).

"Blame the system and the people who take advantage of the illegal to improve their own profitability and by doing so make the illegal an important and vital element of the American economy."

No talk here about welfare, obligations to feed the hungry or resentment about border protection failures!

And NO 19th Century thinking!
08-21-2011, 09:52 AM   #29
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Nor any mention that Obama has deported more folks that Bush.
Truth is he will NEVER do enough to please the far right talkers.
08-21-2011, 08:44 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevewig Quote
"Blame the system and the people who take advantage of the illegal to improve their own profitability and by doing so make the illegal an important and vital element of the American economy."
I wasn't thinking in terms of blame. I was thinking in terms of, what I think are first causes.

Of course you will always have predators taking advantage of the weak and vulnerable - that's a given. I was questioning what are the historical economic and social forces at work in the third world now that is causing these mass folk migrations in the first place.

I think, for instance, that what caused my Grandfather to come to the States from Germany in the 1870s is fundamentally different in kind from what is causing illegal immigration into the States from Mexico now. The two are not comparable in my opinion.

In my awkward way I was just trying to point out this difference.

Take care,
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