[newarts]

.... A "living wage" for an immigrant often isn't really a living wage, hence the reason why US citizens aren't running to take these jobs.

You are certainly correct that illegal immigrants tend to reduce wages.

But that is no surprise; it just means that the wages they will work for are sufficient for them to survive. In fact it defines what is truly the "minimum wage" in our system.

If they could not survive on these wages such situations could not exist.

[GeneV]

That would be true if they weren't the most commonly accepted form of ID.
When travelling to the Bahamas or Canada a valid state drivers license is considered as an accepted form of proof of US citizenship. 48 states have a different type of driving permit for non citizens vs US citizens.
Martinez just wants your state license to have legitimacy.

It has legitimacy already.

In no way is a license proof of citizenship. Identification is not proof of citizenship. It never has been.

[seacapt]

Gene , unless the law has changed in the past few years, you can go down to Port Everglades in Ft. Lauderdale with $80.00 and a valid Fl. drivers jump on a passenger carrying high speed catamaran and be drinking rum punches in Freeport Bahamas in 2 hours.
I used to travel to the Bahamas regularly on small boats , I brought my captains license as proof of US citizenship because it helped if I got boarded by Bahamian Defense Comand. The folks going on the cruise ships and those high speed "catle ships" were advised to bring birth certificates or passports to expedite Bahamian Customs but a FL drivers licence would surfice if other forms of ID were not available.

[GeneV]

Gene , unless the law has changed in the past few years, you can go down to Port Everglades in Ft. Lauderdale with $80.00 and a valid Fl. drivers jump on a passenger carrying high speed catamaran and be drinking rum punches in Freeport Bahamas in 2 hours.
I used to travel to the Bahamas regularly on small boats , I brought my captains license as proof of US citizenship because it helped if I got boarded by Bahamian Defense Comand. The folks going on the cruise ships and those high speed "catle ships" were advised to bring birth certificates or passports to expedite Bahamian Customs but a FL drivers licence would surfice if other forms of ID were not available.

I wonder if that still works. It used to get you into Canada, but no more. It is really not a good use of a DL.

[eddie1960]

That would be true if they weren't the most commonly accepted form of ID.
When travelling to the Bahamas or Canada a valid state drivers license is considered as an accepted form of proof of US citizenship. 48 states have a different type of driving permit for non citizens vs US citizens.
Martinez just wants your state license to have legitimacy.

You need a passport to come to Canada now and we need one to go to the US. thank you Homeland security (there is a frequent crosser card that can be issued as well) Or an Enhanced drivers license. Therefore no need for this legislation as a regular drivers license isn't valid for borders

Since June 2009, everyone from every country arriving in Canada by air, land and sea has needed a passport or equivalent travel document. (Some exceptions apply to children's passport requirements). Besides an up-to-date passport, visitors may instead have an equivalent travel document, such as a NEXUS Card.

NEXUS Card: A partnership between the Canada and U.S. border services that pre-approves entry for travellers by land, sea or air between Canada and U.S. An added benefit is designated and faster lanes at border crossings and airports. Application process involves interview and fingerprinting. Both U.S. and Canadian citizens apply through U.S. Customs and Border Protection.
U.S. Passport Card: This U.S. Department of State-issued ID is valid for entry into Canada by land or sea, though not valid for international air travel.
Enhanced Driver's License (EDL): EDLs indicate both citizenship and identity. Valid for entry into Canada by land or sea, though not valid for international air travel. As of January 2009, only available in Washington and New York states, but coming to Vermont. See individual state licensing departments for more info.
FAST/Express card: This U.S. Customs and Border Protection program pre-approves commercial truck drivers for travel between the U.S. and Canada.

[cardinal43]

Enhanced Driver's License (EDL): EDLs indicate both citizenship and identity. Valid for entry into Canada by land or sea, though not valid for international air travel. As of January 2009, only available in Washington and New York states, but coming to Vermont. See individual state licensing departments for more info.

My son lives in WA and he recently got the EDL when he renewed his license. It came with a "sleeve" to keep it in and he was told to always keep it there as the sleeve also had anti-scanning protection built into it. This supposedly keeps people from "scanning" information with the EDL in his wallet. Don't know if this is actually true, but I hope it is.

[magkelly]

I'll be smashing that chip to pieces if my state ever hands me one, seriously. I am not a dog to be ID'd and tracked via microchip and those darned things are dangerous. You can't always keep it in there. You have to show ID sometimes at the store etc and that gives ample time for someone with a scanner to capture data they don't need to be having.

[RoxnDox]

My son lives in WA and he recently got the EDL when he renewed his license. It came with a "sleeve" to keep it in and he was told to always keep it there as the sleeve also had anti-scanning protection built into it. This supposedly keeps people from "scanning" information with the EDL in his wallet. Don't know if this is actually true, but I hope it is.

Since my wife and I opted for the EDL when we moved here last year, we hope it's true too :-)

I'll be smashing that chip to pieces if my state ever hands me one, seriously. I am not a dog to be ID'd and tracked via microchip and those darned things are dangerous. You can't always keep it in there. You have to show ID sometimes at the store etc and that gives ample time for someone with a scanner to capture data they don't need to be having.

The odds of your state handing you one, rather than making it an option, is pretty slim for the foreseeable future... If you want to do certain things, like cross the border, you need something accepted by the people running the show. Passports, too, are becoming electronic and will give you the same issues.

As far as the risk of being scanned while the DL is out of the holder, well, I guess the level of risk is low enough it doesn't bother me. YMMV of course. I don't think having one puts me in the canine category either - I get tracked every day in a multitude of ways already, one more miniscule thing isn't going to kill me.


Jim

[cardinal43]

I'll be smashing that chip to pieces if my state ever hands me one, seriously. I am not a dog to be ID'd and tracked via microchip and those darned things are dangerous. You can't always keep it in there. You have to show ID sometimes at the store etc and that gives ample time for someone with a scanner to capture data they don't need to be having.

Well, since you don't like to be ID'd and tracked then I take it you don't have a passport. Also, are you aware that people (supposedly) can scan your wallet while it is in your purse? There has recently been a couple of programs (Date Line, 20/20, etc.) that discussed this. Personnaly, I have never met anyone that has lost data via this type of scanning. My understanding is only WA and NY have the EDL. My son has used it twice visiting Canada, and he didn't have to carry his passport. YMMV.

[magkelly]

I don't currently have a passport and when I do, same applies. The chip goes if I can get away with it without going to jail, but at least with a passport I wouldn't be using it all the time. Traveling where I need one isn't something I am likely to do very often in my lifetime. The risk would be pretty low on that score. My driver's license I use a lot for ID probably so it makes me squirm a bit knowing that it could be scanned like that. I don't like that we can be tracked so easily actually.

One of the reasons I use a no-name pay as you go cell, besides the fact that no contract is cheaper for me given my low cell use, is that I don't want my real name and phone number popping up on caller ID for everyone I call. I deal with people on CL quite a bit. Most of them are fine, but I've met a few people I wouldn't trust to cross my threshold. They don't get our land line phone or my real name. If they get that they get our address and who all lives here. Or they would if we had not changed the number recently from the one that was ours for years.

I've looked up what info I can get via the old phone number and even though our old phone number was supposedly unlisted it still linked back to our address and it's occupants, ages and all. In this town lately that is a bad thing. There have been a number of robberies and home invasions here lately. The less people know about who or what they might encounter when they try to break in, the better.

The way things are going maintaining any personal privacy in this world is getting harder and harder and I don't think that's a good thing, personally. Look at Google suddenly insisting on having your real name just so you can sign up for their version of Facebook. They say they want to become an identity service, but my question is who is getting my info, and what are they going to do with it? Think about it. How many times has a website been hacked and all the personal info lost to people who shouldn't have had it? How many pedophiles would love to know a child's real name is not just their online moniker? How many robbers would love to be able to link someone with their real name, so they can find out where you live, watch that account, and know exactly when you're on vacation? How many stalkers are going to use those real names to find their victims? Think about it. Forget the marketing and spam aspect. There are a lot of ways that allowing that info to become public can be abused.

I'm all for being very careful about who has access to my personal info. If I want them to have it, I want to be able to decide that, control who gets it. But some random person being able to scan everything about me via a chip in my ID? That makes me a little nervous. I don't even like using my SS# outside the job and yet you're pretty much forced to use it as ID all the time now. You can't even use a CC at a store at a restaurant these days without wondering if someone is capturing data off it when they go to pay the bill. Locally some guy captured a number of ATM cards this past week. He got a lot from people and they still haven't found him.

My state is already debating mandatory chips for licenses and ID's. Next time I get a new one likely I will be walking around with a driver's license that has a chip with some very personal info on it. Not good, IMHO. I really don't want one. I am not happy they they are even considering it. I think it's dangerous and shortsighted, to be blunt, rather stupid.

[jeffkrol]

Ahh the old It's OK for others not me" syndrome..

Don't worry that little mag strip on your cred card has PLENTY of info on you.......................

Track 2, "American Banking Association," (ABA) is most commonly used. This
is the track that is read by ATMs and credit card checkers. The ABA designed
the specifications of this track and all world banks must abide by it. It
contains the cardholder's account, encrypted PIN, plus other discretionary
data.

Track 1, named after the "International Air Transport Association," contains
the cardholder's name as well as account and other discretionary data. This
track is sometimes used by the airlines when securing reservations with a
credit card; your name just "pops up" on their machine when they swipe your
card!

Since Track 1 can store MUCH more information, credit card companies are trying
to urge retailers to buy card readers that read Track 1. The *problem* is that
most card readers read either Track 1 or Track 2, but NOT BOTH! And the
installed base of readers currently is biased towards Track 2. VISA USA is at
the front of this 'exodus' to Track 1, to the point where they are offering
Track 1 readers at reduced prices thru participating banks. A spokesperson for
VISA commented:

"We think that Track 1 represents more flexibility and the potential
to deliver more information, and we intend to build new services
around the increased information."

What new services? We can only wait and see.

http://www.gae.ucm.es/~padilla/extrawork/card-o-rama.txt

[RoxnDox]

My state is already debating mandatory chips for licenses and ID's. Next time I get a new one likely I will be walking around with a driver's license that has a chip with some very personal info on it.

I agree with much of what you say and feel. If my EDL actually had personal info on the chip, I'd be more worried. But it doesn't... From the Washington Dept of Licensing's FAQ page on EDLs (WA State Licensing: Frequently asked questions - EDL/EID) (tried to replicate their bullet formatting, not exactly how it looks there...)

• What about data security?

We work hard to keep your personal information secure by:

• Encrypting personal identifying information transmitted between Washington State and the border agent.
• Using a dedicated and secure circuit to transmit the unique reference number embedded in your EDL/ID to the Customs and Border Protection network.
• Using a closed and secure network design, including firewalls.
• Limiting and controlling access to the network, network equipment, and data centers.
• Recognizing the network address of an information query as a legitimate requestor and rejecting requests from all unrecognized network addresses.

• Does the EDL/EID card transmit my personal information?

No. The RFID tag embedded in your card doesn’t contain any personal identifying information, just a unique reference number. Plus, the tag doesn’t have a power source and cannot transmit data. An RFID reader at the border crossing station sends radio waves to the tag in your card and collects the reference number so it can be matched to our records to verify the information printed on the front of your card.

• I heard the EDL/EID has a computer chip embedded in it. Can someone use the chip to get my personal information?

No. The radio frequency identification (RFID) tag embedded in an EDL/EID doesn’t contain any personal identifying information, just a reference number. Your card also comes with a security sleeve which prevents the RFID tag in your card from being read when it isn’t being used at a border crossing station.

• Can I turn off the radio frequency identification (RFID) tag?

No, tampering with or deactivating the RFID tag embedded in your EDL/EID will invalidate the card so it cannot be used for border crossing.

• How does it work?

The RFID tag embedded in your EDL/EID contains a unique reference number. At the border crossing station, an RFID reader uses electromagnetic waves like the waves coming to your car radio to energize the tag and collect this reference number.
The reader converts the radio waves reflected back from the RFID tag into digital information and transmits it to the Customs and Border Protection network. Data encryption, secure networks, and firewalls protect the information while it is being transmitted.
The reference number is compared to our records to verify that your identity matches the information printed on the front of your EDL/EID card.

• Does the EDL/EID use a special kind of RFID tag?

• Why does my EDL/EID card need an RFID tag?

• Can someone use the RFID tag in my EDL/EID to get my personal information?

No. The passive RFID tag embedded in your EDL/EID doesn’t contain any personal identifying information, just a unique reference number. In addition, the tag doesn’t have a power source and cannot transmit data unless it is activated by an RFID reader. When you get an EDL/EID, we will give you a security sleeve to protect the RFID tag from being activated when you are not at a border crossing station.


So, for me at least, somebody at the grocery store would have to (a) scan my card and get my refernce number from it, and (b) hack the WA DoL system or the Border Patrol system, transmit my reference number to it, and get my personal info. Does not seem like a likely scenario when there are so many other ways of getting such info that would be far easier.

Obviously, your state might do things differently in the future. In that case, they do make transparent RFID shields you can put the card into (which is what I do with my work ID card, incidentally - because that one DOES have some personal info loaded on it).

And I am *not* one of those who insists or accepts that they're lying about what they put on the chips, or how their systems operate, just because "they're the Gummint so they is EEEVVVVVIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLL" (you may not be one, but there ARE people like that...)

Jim