[fisheye freak]

I doubt that Tony Abbott actually said that he would do anything for power. He knew he had a problem with a very hostile senate. The Greens had a very simple but effective strategy. As people entered the polling booth the party workers just said 'greens in the senate" repeatedly like subliminal advertising. They managed 9 out of 75 which is a massive vote considering they are a pack of loonies. In case wizofoz has any delusions:- they are sacrificing the Murray-Darling irrigation area, Australia's bread bowl, to allow environmental flows, despite a series of floods heading the river's way; if they have their way, coal mining will end in Australia in 10 years (more loss of export income and jobs); they hate cars- if they had their way, cars and trucks would go and we would all be "on our bikes"- how would farm produce get to cities?- most of us urbanites which includes both wizofoz and myself would starve or have to go out bush and live on the land subsistence style. The list of their looniness goes on.If they had their way, we would go back to being cave persons and vegan at that. Labor have basically "gone to bed " with these loonies.
Getting back to the democratically elected aspect- had the PM not lied about the carbon tax, she would most likely have lost the election. Are you not in the least bit suspicious that they are in such haste to ram through a bill that could have such vast implications for our country that have not been run by the people at election ? Are you not suspicious that the PM claims that the Carbon Tax bill is to appease the Greens, but where is Bob Brown ? Why the ramming through with such haste??? Some essential reading for you wizofoz is The Delinquent Teenager.... If you continue to believe in the carbon tax after reading this, we will have to declare you a terminal die-hard fool who would even vote this mob WHEN it is revealed that they are actually Fabial Socialist/communists who wish to overturn democracy. Time to look at the W I D E picture, fisheye style.

[pickles]

You have conveniently forgotten the "there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead" blatant lie. If the circumstances have changed, then why was the carbon tax bill rammed through parliament? The justification for ramming through the bills is that there had been enough discussion on climate in the past. So it looks like our PM had already made up her mind when she LIED to get elected. Who knows what deals were made with the independents, but the primary votes for Gillard in 2 of those seats were among the LOWEST in the country. Those independents are NOT representing the views of those who elected them.Remember, House of Representatives means they represent the views of their electorates. How would you feel if the politicians you elected turned around and supported the other side? The government was not elected in good faith. I think you have rose coloured filters over all of your lenses.

SPOT ON MATE.
Cheers, Pickles.

[pickles]

I doubt that Tony Abbott actually said that he would do anything for power. He knew he had a problem with a very hostile senate. The Greens had a very simple but effective strategy. As people entered the polling booth the party workers just said 'greens in the senate" repeatedly like subliminal advertising. They managed 9 out of 75 which is a massive vote considering they are a pack of loonies. In case wizofoz has any delusions:- they are sacrificing the Murray-Darling irrigation area, Australia's bread bowl, to allow environmental flows, despite a series of floods heading the river's way; if they have their way, coal mining will end in Australia in 10 years (more loss of export income and jobs); they hate cars- if they had their way, cars and trucks would go and we would all be "on our bikes"- how would farm produce get to cities?- most of us urbanites which includes both wizofoz and myself would starve or have to go out bush and live on the land subsistence style. The list of their looniness goes on.If they had their way, we would go back to being cave persons and vegan at that. Labor have basically "gone to bed " with these loonies.
Getting back to the democratically elected aspect- had the PM not lied about the carbon tax, she would most likely have lost the election. Are you not in the least bit suspicious that they are in such haste to ram through a bill that could have such vast implications for our country that have not been run by the people at election ? Are you not suspicious that the PM claims that the Carbon Tax bill is to appease the Greens, but where is Bob Brown ? Why the ramming through with such haste??? Some essential reading for you wizofoz is The Delinquent Teenager.... If you continue to believe in the carbon tax after reading this, we will have to declare you a terminal die-hard fool who would even vote this mob WHEN it is revealed that they are actually Fabial Socialist/communists who wish to overturn democracy. Time to look at the W I D E picture, fisheye style.

SPOT ON AGAIN.....I am afraid, VERY afraid, that that by the time Tony is elected (he will be), this country will be almost out of control.....It will be VERY interesting to compare the books (if there are any), with what Tony "inherits", to the "beautiful set of numbers" left by Howard/Costello to Krudd & co.
Cheers, Pickles.

[fisheye freak]

Good to see others have seen the light(other than their cameras.) More and more people are realizing that the current government is behaving more like a dictatorship. The rhetoric sounds like 1984(George Orwell)- how many people actually believe all that drivel that comes out of their mouths to be shoved down our throats? Rather disturbing as well is that here they are with(I think their first-correct me if I am wrong) tenuous sniff of a majority in both houses of parliament and just look at how they are abusing it.I reckon wizofoz actually has red or deep infra red filters on all his lenses.

[wizofoz]

I doubt that Tony Abbott actually said that he would do anything for power. He knew he had a problem with a very hostile senate.

I doubt not. Other than my opinion that the man is walking slime, that is what all three independents reported was the thrust of abbots deal. "I'll do anything you want. Need $20 Mill for a Tassy Hospital Mr Wilkie? Sure thing. Need a pokies deal? No probs. Etc, Etc. Don't forget that Abbot was a vehement proponent of a carbon tax only a very short time before the hung parliament. It was his stated public policy that a carbon tax was the only way forward. heres an example for you.

You Tube

You Tube

The Greens had a very simple but effective strategy. As people entered the polling booth the party workers just said 'greens in the senate" repeatedly like subliminal advertising.

And? I dunno about you, but I have never taken a 'how to vote' card from any party, have never voted 'above the line' for the senate and never used a parties preferences when forming my opinion about the local candidates. Polling booth workers have zero impact on the way people vote in my experience. Even if they did, are you saying that the libs and labour didn't do the exact same thing? I can just hear the lib booth workers whispering 'Reds under the beds' to all and sundry.

They managed 9 out of 75 which is a massive vote considering they are a pack of loonies.

Only in your opinion Mr Fish. You have had Katter, Tuckey, Bronnie Bishop, et al for decades, how anyone ever voted for these crackpots is beyond me, but they did, and I do not deny them their right to wield whatever power our DEMOCRATIC system allows them. Your position, if you were me, would be to rail against their right to weild said power becasue you don't agree with their nutcase policies.

In case wizofoz has any delusions:- they are sacrificing the Murray-Darling irrigation area, Australia's bread bowl, to allow environmental flows, despite a series of floods heading the river's way; if they have their way, coal mining will end in Australia in 10 years (more loss of export income and jobs); they hate cars- if they had their way, cars and trucks would go and we would all be "on our bikes"- how would farm produce get to cities?- most of us urbanites which includes both wizofoz and myself would starve or have to go out bush and live on the land subsistence style. The list of their looniness goes on.If they had their way, we would go back to being cave persons and vegan at that. Labor have basically "gone to bed " with these loonies.

I won't bother with this drivel, talk about delusions...sheesh. Biased speculative crap. If I wanted to hear crap like this I could just read the Murdoch press or listen to Lana and his mates on Sydney radio. (strange, isnt it that these dingbats only get a run in sydney. They cant BUY airtime in Melbourne... most interesting.)

Getting back to the democratically elected aspect-

Yes lets do that. I notice you have not addressed the core of the argument. That just becasue you and your rabid right mates don't like the election result you consider it nul and void. Thats where we differ FE. As I said last time, I had to put up with 12 years of lies and division uder Howard (sorry, not lies... non-core promises) but I do not deny the legitimacy of the election results. The libs had the majority on the floor and had the right to form government, even though they had less of the primary vote. Once they gained control of the upper house, all sorts of heinous legislation was 'rammed through' talk about unseemly haste... You seem to have a very short memory Mr E.

had the PM not lied about the carbon tax, she would most likely have lost the election.

Or she may have had an even larger Majority. Again, pure speculation. I have no doubt tshe was forced into saying things she didnt believe in by the right of the Labor Party. I wish she had stood firm, but she didn't. It reflects her in a very bad light. I have no issue with that critisism. No-one, not even Nostradamus could have forseen the result of the election and the position both Abbot and Gillard faced with negotiating to form government. Gillard did a better job of the wheeler dealing. Even Abbot admitted that 'She won the negotiation'.

Are you not in the least bit suspicious that they are in such haste to ram through a bill that could have such vast implications for our country that have not been run by the people at election ?

I dont get this 'ram through' claim. They have the majority in the lower house. They have every right to set the agenda. No, I have no suspicion at all. If Rudd had had the balls to call a double dissolution election when the Libs renegged on a carbon tax deal, Labour would have won in a landslide and had a majority in both houses. The reform was well overdue.

Are you not suspicious that the PM claims that the Carbon Tax bill is to appease the Greens, but where is Bob Brown ?

Huh?

Why the ramming through with such haste???

see above

Some essential reading for you wizofoz is The Delinquent Teenager.... If you continue to believe in the carbon tax after reading this, we will have to declare you a terminal die-hard fool who would even vote this mob WHEN it is revealed that they are actually Fabial Socialist/communists who wish to overturn democracy.

Some essential reading for YOU my friend. The Maquarie dictionary. Go and learn what a Fabian is before you attach the lable. As to your suggested reading matter, I may get around to it in a decade or two. For now I'm too busy hiding my money and camera gear under my bed, because the sky is about to fall in, and the end of the world in nigh. Oh, bugger, I cant hide it under the bed, thats where all the Reds are.....

Laurie Oakes had a very interesting article around this past weekend where he put to the lie all of Abbots claims that he will 'undo' the carbon tax, related business tax breaks, superannuation increases, pension increases, etc. You should look it up. Its the very first article I have seen in the Murdoch press critical of Abbot since he stabbed Turnbull in the back. Maybe the tide is turning? Who knows.

Time to look at the W I D E picture, fisheye style.

Time to take the Lana Jones for PM blinkers off and clean your lenses Mr Eye.

The core of the argument is about democracy, not about how much you hate people who lean to the left of you. Any chance you can address the issue? Play the ball, not the man, Mr Fisheye.

Cheers!

[wizofoz]

"beautiful set of numbers"

Good to see you quoting the Worlds Greatest Treasurer, Pickles. I'm sure Keating would be chuffed.

For your info it was he and Hawke that made the reforms that set Aust. up for what is now a prosperous time. Costello and Howard blew the bank on 'billions for babies' schemes, and other pork barrelling to shore up their political position, not to do things in the best interests of the nation. They wasted the biggest mining boom in the history of mankind. They did not advance our nation one iota (except if you are a Mining Magnate or happen to be CEO of BHP perhaps) A total waste of twelve long years.

Straight out political pragmatism, the very same pragmatism that Gillard is accused of

I smell hypocrisy in the air somewhere.

[pickles]

Wizofoz....not worth quoting the one sided nonsense you have written.......it is very easy to see that you have never voted for the Coalition in your life.....which is of course, your right.
You omit to mention the absolute CHAOS created by the Krudd/Gillard "Mob", the financial wastage, the stuff ups, total inability to handle the illegal immigrant disaster, and also the BRILLIANT financial management under Howard/Costello......I see you also sink to the usual Labor habit of "Name Calling".
"Laurie Oakes"?......Once an established journo.....now "Labor's Friend"....Like you, he doesn't like Tony, so unfortunately he plays the man, not the Team.....and conveniently, like you, chooses to ignore the continual, daily stuff ups & MASSIVE unprofessionalism of Gillard & Co.
Oh, & by the way, I suppose you were a massive supporter of "Fuel Watch" & "Grocery Watch" etc etc etc.
Cheers, Pickles.

[wizofoz]

Wizofoz....not worth quoting the one sided nonsense you have written.......it is very easy to see that you have never voted for the Coalition in your life.....which is of course, your right.

Incorrect. I actually once handed out 'how to vote' cards for a local Lib candidate, as a matter of fact.

You omit to mention the absolute CHAOS created by the Krudd/Gillard "Mob", the financial wastage, the stuff ups, total inability to handle the illegal immigrant disaster, and also the BRILLIANT financial management under Howard/Costello

Care to point out anything that sopporific managenment team did to advance the commonWEALTH of Australia? I cant recall anything off hand. I do recall dogs on wharves though, I recall Ministers lying about Children overboard, I remember huge stuff ups (billions, wasn't it?) with 'silent' Submarines that arent silent, nor it seems, servicible submarines... just a couple of things off the top of my head. Oh, and 'non-core promises' the greatest piece of bald face lying in the history of Australain politics. Finacial waste? See above. Illegal immigration? You mean those few poor downtrodden souls that risk their lives for the only chance of peace and freedom that is open to them? Not sure how we stop the Mujahadin and Taliban attacking the Huzzara minority in Afghanistan. (which is what has driven the recent increase in 'boat people'- I detest that pejorative term-) Maybe we should have a war against them..... oh wait....

......I see you also sink to the usual Labor habit of "Name Calling".

Where? And why do you think its one sided? JuLIAR, for example....'lying rodent' was a quote from Liberal senator Brandis of his much loved leader, Howard. Seems to me that both sides have descended to name calling, sometimes even of their own side......

Perhaps that is the problem. We get sucked into 'sides'. Rather like Collingwood V Carlton. The answers are rarely that 'black and white' (pardon the pun). There should be no blind adherence to one 'team' or the other. We should be looking to the best interests of our children and the Nation. Whichever particular set of politicians represents that which best matches our own personal more's and philosophies should get our vote. I'm a Carlton man, but I'd vote for Collingwood if I thought they were the best match for my personal position.

I get very tired of the one sided bashing of only one 'side' of politics by the vociferous mouthpieces of the other. I try to get my information from places that are more varied and non partisan than the likes of the Daily Telegraph, The Oz and Jones et al in Sydney. Fair enough?

(Personally I would have charged Jones with sedition for his comments about putting the PM of this country in a chaff bag and dumping her out to sea. Isn't that sedition? Isn't that incitement to violence? What a buffoon the man is. The sadness is that he influences the democratic process with his bile.)

"Laurie Oakes"?......Once an established journo.....now "Labor's Friend"....Like you, he doesn't like Tony, so unfortunately he plays the man, not the Team.....and conveniently, like you, chooses to ignore the continual, daily stuff ups & MASSIVE unprofessionalism of Gillard & Co.
Oh, & by the way, I suppose you were a massive supporter of "Fuel Watch" & "Grocery Watch" etc etc etc.
Cheers, Pickles.

Interesting. I have not paid any attention to Oakes for some time. I happened to stumble across this articale in the 'Hun' on Saturday morning and read it as I was watching a junior cricket match. I was under the impression that he was still very much an advocate of the mid right of Aus politics, and was surprised by the clarity of thought and 'emperor has no clothes' points he was making. Thanks for your perspective. Is it fact or merely your opinion that he is "Labour's friend? Care to show some quote from him that illustrates this point? Perhaps a stament of position? Any proof at all?

Perhaps Laurie is just good at pointing out the bleeding obvious, that Abbot will not be able to rescind these reforms without committing political suicide. And Abbot, after having spent all his life with only one selfish goal in mind, will never do that, will he? I wonder if you and Mr FE will be as scathing of him when he goes back on his 'blood oath' as you are of Gillard?

Nope, I'm no supporter of 'today tonight' policies like grocery watch, fuel watch etc. These are baubles for the brain dead. They are peripheral issues. Far more impotant is the threat to democracy that I percieve as very real and comes in the form of overwheming weight of media bias, overwhelming media power in the hands of too few. Far too little critical thought, far too much mere parroting of the rabid opinions of others - those highly paid to be seditionists and banner carriers for only one outcome; the advancement of the business interests of their bosses.

[wizofoz]

Wizofoz....not worth quoting the one sided nonsense you have written.......
Cheers, Pickles.

You mean this part?

I have no doubt tshe was forced into saying things she didnt believe in by the right of the Labor Party. I wish she had stood firm, but she didn't. It reflects her in a very bad light. I have no issue with that critisism

[pickles]

Of course, we will not agree.....but that's ok...I guess that's "Democracy".
I am thankful though (you won't be!) that Tony will absolutely cream you guys at the next Election....and as I like to think that I am "reasonably" realistic, I am prepared to admit that a large part of the reason for that will be the fact that the current Labor/Green "Govt" have shown, by their record, that they are incapable of proper Government......mate, it's there (their "record")for all (except perhaps you!) to see.
Oakes?.....read his last couple of articles in the Melbourne Herald.
Cheers, Pickles.

[jeffkrol]

same old same old is see:

The company did not inform government of the decision until just before the announcement was made and the Commonwealth Heads of Government leaders were stuck in Perth. There is evidence emerging, however, that the conservative Opposition was briefed by the company some time ago and were “in the know” as to the company’s plan.

Qantas said they only made the decision that day but leaked E-mails etc suggest it was a well-planned strategy to force the government to refer the dispute to the industrial conciliation and arbitration process – Fair Work Australia – which ultimately will enforce a decision on both parties (unions and company). The expectation is that FWA will side with the company – this institution (and its forebears) has a record of allowing companies to trash working conditions etc.

The timing was also significant.

The day before Qantas held their annual meeting in Sydney and shareholders voted to increase the CEO’s annual pay by 70 per cent (to $A5 million). This was despite the fact that Qantas are claiming the industrial dispute is related to increasing costs (labour) which they allege are making the airline non-competitive.

It is also despite the fact that Qantas has not paid a dividend for the last several years and the management has overseen a dramatic decline in the share price of the company.

The following graph is taken from data available HERE and shows the closing price for Qantas shares since 2003.

So another case of management being rewarded for demonstrated poor performance.

The dispute is not about pay and conditions although that is what the company is claiming it is about.

The current dispute is about the Qantas management strategy to re-create the airline as an Asian company with diminished considerations for its workforce, which arguably, have been the airline’s greatest asset.

The wage demands of the unions are very modest (barely keeping pace with inflation) and stand in stark contrast to the 70 per cent pay rise (meaning millions) that the CEO was awarded last week despite overseeing a plunging share price.

Qantas should be nationalised (again) | Bill Mitchell – billy blog

[wizofoz]

Of course, we will not agree.....but that's ok...I guess that's "Democracy".
I am thankful though (you won't be!) that Tony will absolutely cream you guys at the next Election....and as I like to think that I am "reasonably" realistic, I am prepared to admit that a large part of the reason for that will be the fact that the current Labor/Green "Govt" have shown, by their record, that they are incapable of proper Government......mate, it's there (their "record")for all (except perhaps you!) to see.
Oakes?.....read his last couple of articles in the Melbourne Herald.
Cheers, Pickles.

Mate, if we all agreed the world would be a very boring place.

I agree that the Libs will win the next election, but I'm not as sure as you that it will be a 'creaming'. The Australian voting public, by and large, congregate in the middle ground. If we take out the rusted on Liberal voters and Labor voters (I'm not one of them BTW) there is a very small percentage of votes that actually shapes the formation of government. Perhaps 20%? It is this 20% that is the target for all political parties. The concentration of political power in the hands of Murdoch et al will always mean that it is harder for those of the 'left' (I dont think labor is of the left, but I assume you do) or even the centre to have the wherewithal to influence public opinion.

- Thats what I call undemocratic and what I joined this thread to discuss. Things got a little heated and out of hand after that, as they oftentimes do when people with passion have things to say. - but I digress -

I dont think that it will be the total landslide that some right wing commentators are predicting. I think once the benefits of the reforms become evident, once the tax cuts and pension increases kick in, things will begin to change around. (I guess I pounced on the Oakes article as another who was starting to see things the way I do.)

Abbot will be the next PM (but for how long can Turnbull hold back his own ambition and revenge?) and that will be a terrible day for political leadership and social equity in this country in my opinion. Sad for political leadership becasue of Abbots 'sack it and rule whats left' philosophy, his attack dog style, and his renowned 'adeptness' at not actually believing in anything, but saying whatever it is that will win short term political gain. (what was that quote to Kerry O'Brien? Don't pay any attention to what I say. Only accept what is a written policy? [paraphrasing] sheesh, what a leader of substance)

Sad for social equity because the big miners will bully the Libs into scrapping any mining tax and leave the Australian populace bereft of any benefits that actually belong to the PEOPLE. Too much of the wealth in the hands of too few. I object to this notion.

I will rail against the unfairness of having almost the entirety of the media system in this country on one side, but I will accept it, because I believe in democracy. My point all along in this thread is that those who only believe in power, and/or the rightness of their point of view will hijack democracy and belittle high office in this country for their own personal/financial ends. (I'm thinking shock jocks, mining magnates and media owners here) I belive the umpires decision is final. The Australian populace voted for the Parliament we have, that is the decision of the Umpire. It is up to the players to play the game as best they can given that decision. I object to people who percieve themselves as 'losers' trying to tear down democracy for the short term gain of their own narrow views. (See? I'm a conservative after all!!)

I made a few points in repost to your last thread. I'd appreciate it if you could address those directly at some time.

I'm off to make a fool of myself playing Veterens cricket. Hopefully we can continue this discussion later this evening.

Cheers!

[fisheye freak]

The Fabians were established shortly after the death of Marx to further his work. They have maintained close links with the Soviet state. The Webbs were regarded as practically royalty when they visited in 1931. Surely wizofoz you have to agree that Fabianism has an uncomfortably close relationship with communists.The whole modus operandi of the Fabians is a slow and steady undermining of existing values. Just look at the rubbish taught in schools these days. The exam questions tend to be "how does this make you feel?" rather than testing your actual knowledge of specific uses of formulae etc. LESS actual factual content is taught in class than when I was young-yes, educational standards have gone backwards. No wonder living standards are dropping.Do take note of the logo of the Fabians, a wolf in sheep's clothing - smells of treachery. Their other mascot is a turtle(for the slow ,plodding technique) with a fist (for striking hard when the time comes.) The carbon tax is the first of their big punches-no wonder Gillard and Rudd were so openly celebrating(once again, where was Bob Brown?)
We do not have to be wary of reds under the bed, they are well and truly in bed and in power. Looks like conservative jibes over the decades that the left-of-centre parties are closet socialists/communists are turning out to be true, despite the reassurances of the left. Obviously, these lies were necessary to avoid their treachery being exposed, but they still are BIG LIES. All politicians lie- they do not like media frenzies, so they say what they think the public want to hear. Howard was the consumate performer of towing the Politically Correct line in the PC heyday. This, along with the crazy baby bonus and selling off Telstra are my gripes with Howard. Mind you, this is just a handful of big red marks against his name over a long stewardship. The Rudd/Gillard administration seems to get those 3 big red marks against them every year. The conservatives initially supported action on CO2 because of the widespread belief early on that AGW was true.I initially believed there might be something in it, but being the inquiring type that I am and not one for blind trust, soon realized that there was something fishy going on. More and more people are getting over believing the first thing they are told and taking it on trust and seeing the light.The tide is mercifully slowly turning, despite all the blatant lies about CO2 from supposedly reputable sources.Once people "see the light" they are not going back to believing the lies.
What makes the carbon tax issue so "special' is that Labor know the real motives behind it, but are ramming it through regardless. This makes them, nothing more, nothing less, guilty of HIGH TREASON. Wizofoz-read that book- waiting 20 years to read it is 20 more years of ignorance, 20 more years of treason.
You are right in saying that Gillard may have won the election outright if she had come out of the carbon closet, but even you have to admit that it is unlikely this would have been the case. Do you not agree that the Australian public have a right to be consulted over such an important issue ? We supposedly live in a democracy-government for the people.
Getting back to political tactics, it is interesting that Rudd did not call a fresh election at the height of his popularity(after giving away billions of borrowed dollars for a stimulus for GFC), a crisis that Australia was largely immune to since we had more rigid banking controls that did not allow such reckless lending practices.
You sneer at the likes of Bob Katter. Sure, he comes across as a redneck, but he has a better grasp on reality than the Greens and Labor. You complain about the likes of Tuckey and Bishop, but conveniently ignore the acid tongues and endless streams of rhetoric from Doug Cameron and JG herself. If you are up against acid tongues and mountains of BS, then parliament will tend to degenerate in to the same sort responses.
Abbott is not in the league of great Prime Ministerial material - he is distinctly lacking in charisma, but he could not do worse than this current bunch of incompetents. There is a distinct lack of talent in Australian politics at present across all the parties. The exception is Bob Brown- he is a stand out performer as a politician, pity his policies are insane. Just because someone performs well on the floor of parliament does not mean they should be receiving one's vote and does not mean they are competent to run the country. Seems to be at the moment "vote for the mob who are least bad."

[yucatanPentax]

Jussi, I think that gets to the heart of the issue with our economy since the late '80s. It is all short term--next quarter. The derivative products make it even worse.

The 1980s did mark the departure from long-range planning for corporations to quarterly profit statements. With the advent of junk bonds and leveraged buyouts with stock swaps, etc, the "new financial reality" shifted attention from long range profitability and survival to short range turn quick, increasing profits, install golden parachutes so executives and directors always win, and "the hell if we ruin the company we just earned $100 million bonus!" attitudes.

Prior to the 1980s, both new and old wealth seemed to recognize and respect the concept that a large, strong middle class was the long term prescription for the continued success of everyone, particularly the rich. A large middle class consumes a healthy amount of products and their success raises all boats. Shrink the middle class by diverting productivity gains to the ownership rentiers, demand falls, and everyone is in rough straits. There is currently an illusion among the wealthy that they are immune to this Great Recession, but as the middle class falls further, they'll suffer as well.



As far as the comments about empirical evidence, we also have historical evidence staring us in the face. We know, for a fact, what worked and didn't during the Great Depression. We know, for a fact, what Japan did wrong that caused their 'lost decade' more recently. And there are numerous other examples around the world of which policies will work and which are blowing smoke in a strong wind.

That makes no difference. Since the facts do not fit the philosophy of our parties -- both are Money Parties, with one being slightly less harsh social than the other -- the facts are conveniently discarded.

Things have become so bad that the solution is not readily evident. "Voting" for a false choice between bad and worse isn't enough any more.

Maybe OWS, or just "Occupy," will lead to enough shifting of the discussion that it will raise a new dynamic. There don't seem to be any other means by which things will change.

At a minimum, it seems "corporate personhood" has to die, or the oligarchy will be complete and democracy will vanish. This is not a new concept. It was behind Teddy Roosevelt's trust busting as president and his concern with corporate influence over politics 100 years ago!

[wizofoz]

The Fabians were established shortly after the death of Marx to further his work. They have maintained close links with the Soviet state. The Webbs were regarded as practically royalty when they visited in 1931. Surely wizofoz you have to agree that Fabianism has an uncomfortably close relationship with communists.The whole modus operandi of the Fabians is a slow and steady undermining of existing values. Just look at the rubbish taught in schools these days. The exam questions tend to be "how does this make you feel?" rather than testing your actual knowledge of specific uses of formulae etc. LESS actual factual content is taught in class than when I was young-yes, educational standards have gone backwards. No wonder living standards are dropping.Do take note of the logo of the Fabians, a wolf in sheep's clothing - smells of treachery. Their other mascot is a turtle(for the slow ,plodding technique) with a fist (for striking hard when the time comes.)

Great work. You have discovered that the fabians are outright socialists.
Modern labor is roughly in agreement with modern Liberals in almost all aspects of policy. You see it as a Socialist agenda, I see the Libs as having a Fascist agenda. I think mine is more likely to be true. I acknowledge (when are you going to so this?) that this is only my opinion when reading the information before me.

The carbon tax is the first of their big punches-no wonder Gillard and Rudd were so openly celebrating(once again, where was Bob Brown?)

Would you say that Workchoices was the first of the Fascists big punches in the same vein? I doubt you will, but that remains as true to me as what you are trying to assert is true.

We do not have to be wary of reds under the bed, they are well and truly in bed and in power. Looks like conservative jibes over the decades that the left-of-centre parties are closet socialists/communists are turning out to be true, despite the reassurances of the left. Obviously, these lies were necessary to avoid their treachery being exposed, but they still are BIG LIES.

Show me your proof. Don't just make assetions based on the brain washing you recieve from the Murdoch press and Lana Jones' of this world. I have rebutted many of your points in this discussion so far, You have yet to come back to address the rebuttals. You simply make ever more specious assertions.

All politicians lie- they do not like media frenzies, so they say what they think the public want to hear. Howard was the consumate performer of towing the Politically Correct line in the PC heyday. This, along with the crazy baby bonus and selling off Telstra are my gripes with Howard.

Finally we agree on something. All politicians lie, but you hold Gillard more reprehensible than any previous politician becasue you don't happen to agree with her. The baby bonus was the worst case of political porkbarreling this country has seen. Talk about a policy for the brain dead...

Mind you, this is just a handful of big red marks against his name over a long stewardship. The Rudd/Gillard administration seems to get those 3 big red marks against them every year.

Your source please? Not just your opinion. You have to couch your assertions as either fact or opinion. You seem to think that in your case they are the same thing.

The conservatives initially supported action on CO2 because of the widespread belief early on that AGW was true.I initially believed there might be something in it, but being the inquiring type that I am and not one for blind trust, soon realized that there was something fishy going on. More and more people are getting over believing the first thing they are told and taking it on trust and seeing the light.The tide is mercifully slowly turning, despite all the blatant lies about CO2 from supposedly reputable sources.Once people "see the light" they are not going back to believing the lies.

Sorry mate but this just smacks of paranoia and swallowing the right wing propoganda hook line and sinker. Me I see it as a circuit breaker. I count the vast majority of scientific opinion across the world as having more weight than the rantings of a few less than qualified proponents. I see no harm in taking measures to reduce pollution. I see great potential harm in doing nothing.

What makes the carbon tax issue so "special' is that Labor know the real motives behind it,

opinion again

but are ramming it through regardless. This makes them, nothing more, nothing less, guilty of HIGH TREASON. Wizofoz-read that book- waiting 20 years to read it is 20 more years of ignorance, 20 more years of treason.

Dont look now, your paranoia is showing.

You are right in saying that Gillard may have won the election outright if she had come out of the carbon closet,

YAY! I'm rigth about something!

but even you have to admit that it is unlikely this would have been the case.

why do I? Becasue you don't agree with the policy? I dont think you are that persuasive Mr fish

Do you not agree that the Australian public have a right to be consulted over such an important issue ?

Here you have a point. But like the last election, when more people disagreed with the Libs staying in power than returning them . (Were you barking conspiracy theory and 'UNDEMOCRATIC!' then? No? I thought as much. ) The political system we have delivers power to certain individuals and groups. The greens have a valid right to persue their policy, just as the Libs had the right to persue any of their more odious schemes. You my friend just have to come to the realisation that what you are watching is Democracy at work. Flawed as it is, it is the best sytem of government I know of. To my reading, what is happening at the moment is the libs and their corporate bosses are having a hissy fit because they didnt get their trojan horse across the line. Suck it up.

We supposedly live in a democracy-government for the people.

I believe we do. Except some less than honourable people are trying to rabble rouse a 'tea party lite' movement in Australia. How is that democracy?

Getting back to political tactics, it is interesting that Rudd did not call a fresh election at the height of his popularity(after giving away billions of borrowed dollars for a stimulus for GFC), a crisis that Australia was largely immune to since we had more rigid banking controls that did not allow such reckless lending practices.

Not so much interesting, but gutless in my reading. I do not agree that we were inured to the ravages of the GFC just becasue of tighter banking controls, but this is another topic. Lets try to stick with 'democracy' for now. Ok?

You sneer at the likes of Bob Katter.

but you dont sneer at the greens? Kettle and pot Mr FE?

Sure, he comes across as a redneck, but he has a better grasp on reality than the Greens and Labor.

In your learned opinion, of course.

You complain about the likes of Tuckey and Bishop, but conveniently ignore the acid tongues and endless streams of rhetoric from Doug Cameron and JG herself. If you are up against acid tongues and mountains of BS, then parliament will tend to degenerate in to the same sort responses.

Mate are you seriously asserting that only one side is guilty of taking parliamentry behaviour into the pit in which it now resides? You are in need of a serious look in the mirror.

Abbott is not in the league of great Prime Ministerial material - he is distinctly lacking in charisma,

once again we are in furious agreement.

but he could not do worse than this current bunch of incompetents.

In your humble opinion. I beg to differ, the man scares the bejesus out of me.

There is a distinct lack of talent in Australian politics at present across all the parties. The exception is Bob Brown- he is a stand out performer as a politician,

I tend to agree, but I think Turnbull would make a great PM, and I think Steve Smith has a firm hand on the tiller of the defence department. Joe Hockey would be OK if he just made a stand on something and didnt constantly play the 'suck up to Tony routine. He has lost me as a man of integrity to be trusted.

pity his policies are insane.

Is it possible for you to separate fact from your erudite opinions please?

Just because someone performs well on the floor of parliament does not mean they should be receiving one's vote and does not mean they are competent to run the country. Seems to be at the moment "vote for the mob who are least bad."

I totally agree. It works for both sides of the house though.