[Ratmagiclady]

The Greens had a very simple but effective strategy. As people entered the polling booth the party workers just said 'greens in the senate" repeatedly like subliminal advertising. They managed 9 out of 75 which is a massive vote considering they are a pack of loonies. In case wizofoz has any delusions:-

Wow, I don't know much about Aussie politics, but it seems curious to me that there you are claiming that some Greens won seats, just by saying, 'Vote for our party,' a lot, which is ...something you'd tend to expect of campaign workers. As for what's loony, ...I think claiming that they only won by at the last moment subliminally-out-loud saying 'Vote for our guys' ...and all those people who'd presumably gone there intending to vote otherwise, suddenly became like hypnotized Green voters... Well, just from a more distant perspective, I'm not actually finding that terribly convincing on the question of relative sanity.

[wizofoz]

Wow, I don't know much about Aussie politics, but it seems curious to me that there you are claiming that some Greens won seats, just by saying, 'Vote for our party,' a lot, which is ...something you'd tend to expect of campaign workers. As for what's loony, ...I think claiming that they only won by at the last moment subliminally-out-loud saying 'Vote for our guys' ...and all those people who'd presumably gone there intending to vote otherwise, suddenly became like hypnotized Green voters... Well, just from a more distant perspective, I'm not actually finding that terribly convincing on the question of relative sanity.

Maybe they just had younger better looking Polling booth workers? I'd rather be told what to do by a young buxom blonde than some violet haired granny spewing rabid right propoganda, thats for sure....but thats another story.

Outlandish, unsubstantiated claims seem to be the run of the mill claim in this discussion RML. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story...

[wizofoz]

same old same old is see:




Qantas should be nationalised (again) | Bill Mitchell – billy blog

Geoff, Sorry for the delay, I had totally skipped over this post in the heat of my discussion about local politics.

What the Irish CEO of QANTAS did was reprehensible at best, treacherous at worst and not in the best interest of the company, its brand or this nation, in my opinion.

He was negotiating with the Unions (Two of which had suspended any industrial action the day before. The 3rd, the pilots union, had taken the RADICAL steps of telling passengers they were in dispute with the company and WEARING RED TIES. Outrageous!!) when he basically took the company out on strike. An action that is against the provisions of the act. He should have given notice of a lock out, just the same way the unions have to give notice of a strike.

QANTAS declined to inform the government of their impending decision, (QANTAS, being a former national airline, is still governed by the provisions of the so-called QANTAS act). They declined to use the self same provision of the industrial relations act which the government invoked to end the chaos, before stranding people all over the world, trashing the brand and casuing irreperable damage to the reputation of what is (was) arguably the worlds finest airline.

This is a prime example of where corporate greed and jingoism overcomes reality and common sense. QANTAS management are hell bent on sacking all their Australian staff and replacing them with low skilled, low cost Asian labor in the never ending pursuit of 'returns' for the shareholder'. Never mind quality of service, safety assuredness, national pride.

This clown got a 71% pay rise the day before, to reward him for the wonderful job he has done in driving the share price through the floor. Where do I get a job like that?

[Ratmagiclady]

Maybe they just had younger better looking Polling booth workers? I'd rather be told what to do by a young buxom blonde than some violet haired granny spewing rabid right propoganda, thats for sure....but thats another story.

Outlandish, unsubstantiated claims seem to be the run of the mill claim in this discussion RML. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story...

Well, if you let your Right dominate the dialogue of your governance just cause it's amusing, you might end up just like we 'Merkans' you like to mock so much.

I used to want to run around the world to Oz when I was a kid, ... Why flee from one hemisphere when you can flee from two. (Admittedly this was before I realized sunlight was actually kinda toxic in a butterfly-rash sort of way to me anyway, ) But. Y'know? Ugh. Your politics, are getting the stank. Of American ugly.


When I was like twelve I thought it was the land of Men At Work and people being less stupid-for-no-good-reason. Also with dreamscape. And emus.

If you'd do those, you'll still be able to laugh at Yanks. If you don't, that'll be just sad.
So be smarter than this. Cause this is bullshit whatever way you slice it, you do better *there* and I'll see if I can help un**** this scenario. *here.* K?

---

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 11-07-2011 at 09:09 PM.

[wizofoz]

Well, if you let your Right dominate the dialogue of your governance just cause it's amusing, you might end up just like we 'Merkans' you like to mock so much.

I used to want to run around the world to Oz when I was a kid, ... Why flee from one hemisphere when you can flee from two. (Admittedly this was before I realized sunlight was actually kinda toxic in a butterfly-rash sort of way to me anyway, ) But. Y'know? Ugh. Your politics, are getting the stank. Of American ugly.

You got that right RML, it gets worse day by day. Like boiling a frog. One day the sleepy populace will wake up to find they are the main course. By then of course it is too late...

When I was like twelve I thought it was the land of Men At Work and people being less stupid-for-no-good-reason. Also with dreamscape. And emus.

If you'd do those, you'll still be able to laugh at Yanks. If you don't, that'll be just sad.
So be smarter than this. Cause this is bullshit whatever way you slice it, you do better *there* and I'll see if I can help un**** this scenario. *here.* K?

Yep it is getting sadder, but most dont realise it because most have the "soma' of TV to dull their senses into consumer units rather than citizens. Gee, we even had a royal visit by one of the Kardashians...(whatever the hell a Kardashian is) and the brain dead went ballistic.

I try my best to do my version of Paul Revere (The corporates are coming, the corporates are coming!) but very few heed the call.

You will be very welcome down under when the stank gets too much for you there, up over. Anti bullshitters are very welcome in my world.

Good luck with your un ****ing

[Ratmagiclady]

You got that right RML, it gets worse day by day. Like boiling a frog. One day the sleepy populace will wake up to find they are the main course. By then of course it is too late...

This may be an apt metaphor, but one of those things it's entirely unsatisfying to be *right* about. It's getting more like ....lobster.

Yep it is getting sadder, but most dont realise it because most have the "soma' of TV to dull their senses into consumer units rather than citizens. Gee, we even had a royal visit by one of the Kardashians...(whatever the hell a Kardashian is) and the brain dead went ballistic.

I try my best to do my version of Paul Revere (The corporates are coming, the corporates are coming!) but very few heed the call.

You will be very welcome down under when the stank gets too much for you there, up over. Anti bullshitters are very welcome in my world.

Good luck with your un ****ing

Hey, I hear they can walk a songline like you read about there... Here's how we used to un@&#&$ it in old Cambridge.

You Tube

You Tube

I do appreciate the invitation, though I will require shade and probably have to ship myself freight. (Wouldn't that make a great band name, though: Cranky Yankee. ')

Really was my idea of a future as a kid, That's it, I'm going to New Zealand or Alaska to be a b....float plane operator.



Actually , I miss Boston ...Or Holyoke. Or...Home. Fine girl I am, apparently, according to some really embarrassing acclamation. Well, not even embarrassing. Just home. Messed-up as the place was:

You Tube

You Tube

You know. Oz doesn't sound so bad, especially with a welcome, but there's no place like home... *tap tap*

[pickles]

Geoff, Sorry for the delay, I had totally skipped over this post in the heat of my discussion about local politics.

What the Irish CEO of QANTAS did was reprehensible at best, treacherous at worst and not in the best interest of the company, its brand or this nation, in my opinion.

He was negotiating with the Unions (Two of which had suspended any industrial action the day before. The 3rd, the pilots union, had taken the RADICAL steps of telling passengers they were in dispute with the company and WEARING RED TIES. Outrageous!!) when he basically took the company out on strike. An action that is against the provisions of the act. He should have given notice of a lock out, just the same way the unions have to give notice of a strike.

QANTAS declined to inform the government of their impending decision, (QANTAS, being a former national airline, is still governed by the provisions of the so-called QANTAS act). They declined to use the self same provision of the industrial relations act which the government invoked to end the chaos, before stranding people all over the world, trashing the brand and casuing irreperable damage to the reputation of what is (was) arguably the worlds finest airline.

This is a prime example of where corporate greed and jingoism overcomes reality and common sense. QANTAS management are hell bent on sacking all their Australian staff and replacing them with low skilled, low cost Asian labor in the never ending pursuit of 'returns' for the shareholder'. Never mind quality of service, safety assuredness, national pride.

This clown got a 71% pay rise the day before, to reward him for the wonderful job he has done in driving the share price through the floor. Where do I get a job like that?

Wiz....as usual, we do not agree....we are certainly on the opposite side of the "Political Spectrum"....BIG TIME. I make no secret of the fact that Iwas, & am, a BIG fan of John Howard, and another Politician you may have heard of..Jeff Kennett, both of whom saved the Country & State respectively from the financial ruin created by their ALP political predecessors.
Who do you vote for...who did you vote for in the last two federal Elections?
As far as Quantas is concerned...EVERYONE, except the ALP & the Unions, agreed with what Joyce did...a real gutsy move...He could not possibly negotiate any longer with the Unions who were severely disrupting his airline. What the Unions, & obviously you, fail to realize, or don't want to know, is that to accede to the Union's demands would be to see the end of Quantas, they would be unable to compete, & fade away, like so many other Aussie companies who have no longer been able to compete owing to higher & higher wages, & ridiculous Union demands.
So, we'll NEVER agree....you'd be better off playing Veteran's Cricket, & I'd be better off mucking around with my car!
Cheers, Pickles.

[Ratmagiclady]

OK, kids, if you want to listen to rich people, listen to *both* Roosevelts. (I think if we could like *fuse* them* we'd have America in one President. ) We cannot do this, but maybe, this would provide perspective?



(As for anyone blaming unions for what airlines do to cut corners and make more money.....eeeeeeh. It's been many a year since I hung out with aircraft maintenance people, (non-union) but when it came to my dear one, *I'd* have flown her if I could. )

[wizofoz]

Wiz....as usual, we do not agree....we are certainly on the opposite side of the "Political Spectrum"....BIG TIME. I make no secret of the fact that Iwas, & am, a BIG fan of John Howard, and another Politician you may have heard of..Jeff Kennett, both of whom saved the Country & State respectively from the financial ruin created by their ALP political predecessors.
Who do you vote for...who did you vote for in the last two federal Elections?
As far as Quantas is concerned...EVERYONE, except the ALP & the Unions, agreed with what Joyce did...a real gutsy move...He could not possibly negotiate any longer with the Unions who were severely disrupting his airline. What the Unions, & obviously you, fail to realize, or don't want to know, is that to accede to the Union's demands would be to see the end of Quantas, they would be unable to compete, & fade away, like so many other Aussie companies who have no longer been able to compete owing to higher & higher wages, & ridiculous Union demands.
So, we'll NEVER agree....you'd be better off playing Veteran's Cricket, & I'd be better off mucking around with my car!
Cheers, Pickles.

My friend, you may have noticed the disclaimer 'IN MY OPINION' that I was careful to attach to my posting about Queensland and Northern Territory Air Service (no U required), but like your mate fisheye, you confuse statement of fact with opinion. It is not true that 'everyone but the ALP and the unions' agreed with Joyce. You should broaden your method of information collection, or at least qualify what you are saying to something like 'everything I have heard points to...' If you cannot be accurate, at least make sure that we realise this is your opinion, not dyed in the wool, 100% guaranteed, cast iron fact. You make it too easy. All I have to do is say 'Did you watch Q and A last night? Did you see what Ray Martin had to say about QANTAS?' to disprove what you are asserting. He is neither Union, nor ALP. QED your statement is erroneous. I have asked both of you, several times, to come up with anything that backs up your postings, neither of you have. Please be so kind as to make sure you append your OPINIONS with relevent quotations, facts, assertation, whatever you can find, as empirical evidence, or call it for what it is, merely opinion. OK Mate?

It's a bit like the ad neuseum claim of the Liberal party 'Labor will never return a budget surplus'. Exactly which crystal ball are they peering in to and how can we know that they know how to operate it correctly? Have they RTFM? These slogans get repeated over and over, untill they lose their veracity, but become folklaw. It may be true that Labour has not returned a surplus in the federal budget since the 90's, but that does not make it true in the future, nor does it mean that a deficit is a bad thing. Anyone who repeats this mindless crap is not worth listening to. (I'm thinking mainly of Joe Hockey, because everyone knows that Abbot will say anything and everything he can for short term gain. [go on, pick me up for using my opinion as fact ]) This has made the ALP determined to return even the most insignificant surplus, regardless of the public benefit, just so they they can shut the monkey gallery the F*** up. There is no basis to the claim, no proof, no evidence,but it becomes taken as gospel becasue it it repeated over and over. Bullshit is bullshit however it is packaged.



For what it's worth, I agree that Joyces actions were gutsy, but I think they were treacherous, misguided and just plain wrong. Not in the interest of the airline, and certainly not in the national interest, gutsy nonetheless.

You may be happy to work for Asian wages and conditions and have a 3rd class way of life, go ahead, back the libs ..err, sorry, I mean the H.R.Nichol Society and their IR policies. Me, I'd rather fight for the survival of fairness and equity for my children (and yours).

Personally I'd rather see us take up the challenge to find new ways to use our resources and talents and natural advantages to invest in new and innovative industries, new ways of doing things for the 21st century rather than having this age old capital v labour dispute, but thats the fight that Joyce and his cheer sqaud (Like Peter Reith...gee there's a surprise!) want to have. The unions, naturally enough, want to preserve thier wages against COL rises. That seems fair enough to me. They also want to uphold QANTAS's reputation as the worlds safest airline; this also seems fair enough to me. I understand the argument that QANTAS needs to remain competative. How much of a $500million PA profit does it take to remain competative?

Tell me pickles. If you had so stuffed up your job, and your companies share price to the extent that Joyce has; betrayed the people that work for the company, betrayed and deliberately embarrased the government, stranded customers in the four corners of the globe, and so trashed the standing of the company as to being almost worthless in the future (I dare not say 'going forward!), would you expect a pay rise, or the sack? Be honest.

My friend, you need to look past dogma and the narrowcast views of the Murdoch press for you information. You seem like a nice guy, and I enjoy the discussion, but really.... don't spew the view from company HQ.

Like I said to you once before, I am not rusted on to any party, or polital dogma. I belive in fairness, equity and a meritocracy. I also belive a fair and just society stands up for those who cannot defend themselves from the predators amongst us. I also said that I detested Howard, for I believe he is the antithesis of these, my core beliefs. Kennet is pretty much in the same bracket (though, interestingly, they famously hate each other...) Kennet inherited a government from an inept Labor government that had been sold a pup by investment bankers. Do you remember the Tricontinental bank? Thats what stuffed Victoria, bankers, not political beliefs. Cain's Labor government were too wet behind the ears to ask the hard questions of those that were supposed to know. It's easy to get the trains running on time if you use a jackboot, or to sack the conductors on the tramways, (much to the disgust and detriment of all Melbournians, to this day.) if you have no conscience, or thought for the future, if your only 'pass mark' is the financial bottom line. Far harder to be a leader and visionary and espouse great social and moral policy. No Liberal leader in my time (I'm post Menzies) has had those qualities, in my opinion, with the possible exception of John Gorton, and he was stabbed in the back by another spineless, gormless twitt, hellbent on power at any cost. (that reminds me of someone current... but I can't quite put my finger on it....) Fraser in his latter years has seen the error of his halcyon days, (he even apologised to Whitlam, as I understand it) but whn PM he was a hard bastard, to my memory. Towing the Tory line.

Oh, and BTW, can you explain to me how Howard 'saved the Country' from the privations of the Keating Government. Keating being the treasurer and PM who gave us such things as indexed superannuation, disposed of tarrifs (and thus created the dispute about QANTAS we see today...but thats another discussion), floated the dollar, steered us through a phase where the Australian economy was in danger of being a 'banana republic', among other things, and wanted to bring in, but was thwarted in doing so, the GST. (And these are only the economic policies, never mind the far reaching social policies.) Other than that latter Keating initiative of GST, exactly what did Howard do? I mean, other than baby bonuses.

I've never been in to cars. They are just a tool to get me and my stuff from A to B. I hope you enjoy your time with them though. As for me, I took three catches at first slip in the vets game...unheard of apperently, and I'm pretty happy about that

[wizofoz]

As It happens RML, I was reading about both Roosevelts only recently, and I'd have to agree pretty much with your assesment. In my reading, Teddy wasy (roughly) what would be known now as a republican libertarian (a fusion of both ?), a self made man (even though he wasn't), a go getter. FDR was more like a benevolent dictator. (my preferred method of government, even if it is impossible to achieve) Noblese Oblige. He tried to make it as good as possible for ALL Americans. It seems to me, the current crop of Republicans (Like most but not all of the Liberal party members here) believe only in making it best for the greedy and wealthy. Shame isnt it?

I'm no expert, but it seems the current crop of Democrats have lost their way in the morass of 'the beltway' and few know what they believe in any more. The GOP is much the same, but it is less of an error for them, as it is a more natural fit for them to think of individualism over collectivism. Shame once again

[wizofoz]

Oh and BTW RML. Thanks for the Ella...

I used to have a mate we called Lobster... head full of shite and tail full of meat...

[redrockcoulee]

Wizofoz

It is common belief or common sense that left of centre governments always run deficits and right of centre run surpluses. If you look at both Canada and the US for examples in the last twenty years it has been mostly what are called in their respective countries (not sure if there is such a thing as left of centre in the US) left wing govenemnts that have run balanced or surplus budgets and right of centre that have run deficits. Not every year but if you look at Canada the Conservatives ran deficits, then came in the Liberals and ran surpluses then the Conservatives and soon after power came the recession and therefore deficits (cannot blame them for doing so it was the right thing to do). But the dogma says otherwise. I have said before that both right and left leaning governments have and can have either surpluses or deficits but it seems that the jargon of the right is that only they can do so and the other side never has and never can. This is not a statement of fact as you argued against (not sure if my wording is right but we do agree on this is what I mean). In my own province in the last 40 years we have had goverments running large surpluses and socking away into investment accounts and also running huge deficits and piling up the debt. Which was right wing and which was left? Wrong answer, we have had the same party in power for the entire period. Dogma is always wrong, ideas are not.

[wizofoz]

redrock, thanks for reading my diatribe, I do tend to get a bit wordy and carried away at times...

Down here the mainstream conservatives are called 'Liberals' , even though they have not had a liberal policy in decades, they are basically Tories, even though I do embelish and called them fascists, only a few of them are in reality that hard line. The mainstream 'leftists' are called the Australian Labor Party -ALP- (with an American spelling, as one of the founders was an American, back in the gold rush days, and thats how it became spelled) even if they are in reality a right of centre party with a few token lefties tacked on who have no-where else to go.

It is a harping critisism of the right that the Labor party wil NEVER return a surplus, based on the evidence of the past 30 odd years (about half of which has been controlled by the Tories) as if a surplus is the be all and end all of economic policy. It is a simple mantra designed to fool the uneducated, the unsophisticated, who do not understand good fiscal and monetary policy. Basically they repeat ad nauseum 'its like your household budget, if you spend more than you earn, you will go broke'. They ignore all economic theory, stimulus packages, taxation regimins, etc. It is a deciet based on a lie, a trap for the unknowing, and they get away with it because the media is on their side and no-one ever points out the truth. Government level finances are NOT the same as household finances.

They by and large ignore that fact that it was a visionary LABOR prime minister and treasurer who performed major and radical restructuring of our economy during the 80's and 90's that leave us as probably the most enviable economy in the world today. (yeah I know it's because of a giant mining boom and we are just as F***ed as the rest of the western world without it, but hey, lets enjoy it for a while). This was the last Labor govt to return a surplus. The Libs just carry on talking to the monkeys in the audience, over and over and over. No-one ever asks what proof they have of how things will be in the future. Quite frankly it gives me the S**ts.

As a consequence this current administration, having avoided the worst of the GFC by using the miniscule surplus the former Tory admin left as stimulus , (not always wisely spent, but that is a different topic) have vowed and declared they will return the budget to surplus in the next FY. It doesnt matter if this is the wrong time in the cycle to do so, it doesnt matter if the money is better spent on infrastructure or social policy. They just want the bastards to SHUT UP ABOUT IT. That is the level to which erudite, reasoned political debate has fallen in this country in the past 20 or so years. Never mind the substance, the 24hr news cycle is all important.

Sad innit?

Wayne

[pickles]

More nonsense Wiz.
Did you forget to tell me who you voted for in the last two Federal Elections?....You can include State too if you like.
Cheers,Pickles.

[wizofoz]

More nonsense Wiz.
Did you forget to tell me who you voted for in the last two Federal Elections?....You can include State too if you like.
Cheers,Pickles.

Pickes, I'll tell you who I voted for after you answer all the rebuttles I have taken the time to put to you.

Now, here is the challenge for you. Use facts, not opinion. Do you think your up to the challenge big fella?

Single line answers are getting rather boring mate. Do you have anything but other peoples' opinions to put forth, or should we end the discussion here, and remain convinced that analysis and clear thinking are a thing of the past for most people?