Against Democracy

Ratmagiclady · 11-09-2011, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by wizofoz

Thanks RML, but I preferred the Ella...

As an American, I'll say proudly that you rightly should. She's one of our all-time best. Yes, even when I was looking very urban-tribe punky, I would be singing along with the old standards on my Walkman. Which would also freak the mundanes, but in a way they found cheerful. Freaky, but cheerful.

It's one of my favorite stories, but I think I actually hung up my old punk rock jacket this one day my little tribe called up a fulll muster, cause I guess the FUndies were swarming the Pit that day, I'm there turning up in full fig and even with stuff pinned inside that jacket to protect the kidneys, And I've got Nat King Cole on my little cassette player. (And half that album was songs Ella did: I misremember which I was singing at the time, (Might have been 'Autumn Leaves,' that was....No, wait, it was 'These Foolish Things,' but I passed this sixty-odd year old couple and being, 'Aww, sweet, they're still in love, all part of the tableau, so I kept singing, and then I get the mother of all funny looks as I pass, and I'm like, 'What?' But what can you do but keep singing. )

I suppose the moral of the story is that even Americans go deeper than we may appear. When Ella passed, I was the Gothy-looking chick singing 'It's Only A Paper Moon. A lot.

That's actually as it should be. Identity politics will turn you into something besides what you thought you wanted an identity *for.*

You should *always* protect your kidneys if you expect trouble, but if you have an identity to politicize, you should be free to sing.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 11-09-2011 at 06:50 PM.

**wizofoz** · 11-09-2011, 06:54 PM

You are a wise woman RML.

There is often more depth to people than appearances (and even political allegiences) may conceal. Vive la difference`

pickles · 11-09-2011, 07:27 PM

Wiz..Like I said.....you've got your views.....I've got mine.....we ain't NEVER gonna agree (like the Grammar), so I ain't gonna waste any more of my time....or yours.
Mate, if you can't even understand how to give me a straight answer on a simple question as to who you voted for, when I'm quite happy, & proud, to say that I'm a Liberal voter....what hope have we got?
However, here's your chance......1...Once again....Who did you vote for? 2.....List the "achievments" & the "disasters" too, if you like, of the Krudd/Gillard "Govt"?
Cheers, Pickles.
PS...Unlike you....who to date, have been unable to even give a straight answer to question one....I do not "hide" any of my views, or what I say....SO, I'm quite happy to admit that yes, I have used the term JuLIAR.....simply because it's true......and hey, ...it could be said of many other Polies too..on both sides of the fence!......but it doesn't come close to the terminology you used to desribe Tony. There's plenty of people I'd call a liar, & there's plenty of people I don't like, but I'd NEVER describe them as you do, in that way.....but, like I said, you & I are, very certainly, "Poles Apart".

**wizofoz** · 11-09-2011, 07:58 PM

Its pretty simple pickles. I asked you to do something, then you asked me to do something. I was waiting for you to respond first. Still am.

For your information, and it will be of no surprise to you, that I tend to vote for the candidate that best reflects my personal more`s and beliefs. I am a left leaning person, so I try to find the person that best fits that bill. I find that Labor, and in particular the local candidate is not particularly of the left, so she didnt get my vote at the last election. I voted for the green candidate actually, but in the full knowlege that there was absolutely no chance that the Lib candidate wouldnt win. It's a protest vote of sorts, and the only one our democracy (remember when we were talking about democracy, rather than personalities?) allows me. Other than running myself, and that my friend will never happen...

It is my personal opinion that Australian politics has listed to the right ever since Hawke and Keating took the middle right ground from the Libs. Like a pendulum, it usually swings back the other way eventually, but thanks to the media bias of the Murdoch press and the TV barons, the fulcum has also shifted to the right. I vote for the leftist candidates wherever I find them in a vain attempt to restore the balance. I understand I am tilting at windmills, Qixote like, but nonetheless that is my right.

My personal beliefs would see a moderately left leaning, social democratic party in power. Neither too far to the left, nor the right. I'll bet that surprises you.

If I were to be given a choice of all the current pollies to be in my 'fantasy team' I would select quite a few of the Libs to be on the front bench. and I would have Turnbull as either leader or treasurer. Swan, Gillard, Smith, Macklin, Rudd and Wong would get a gurnsey. Garret would not. Bob Brown would be a shoe in. Morrison and Dutton would be in the team, Hockey would be in the sin bin, carrying the drinks for now. Abbot would not be allowed to play until he stops wrecking the playing fields, and agrees to stop changing the rules. Chris Pyne could be the spuiker and cheer leader (cause he would look the best of them in a short skirt?) Julie Bishop could be employed to use the 'death look' stare like a hukka to intimidate our opponents, but she wouldnt be in the A team. Barnaby Joyce would be restricted to the circus side show where his talents could be best used.

I'd have the independents, Wilkie, Oakshot and Windsor would get a run for the courage and, well, independence, thy have shown.

Last edited by wizofoz; 11-09-2011 at 08:05 PM.

pickles · 11-09-2011, 08:54 PM

Wiz....Thank You....I now know where you stand.....Of course I have no problem with it, because that's your democratic right, as is mine, thanks to the great country we live in.
And, of course, I would have different people in my Govt of choice....as you're probably aware...Howard, Costello, Hockey, Abbott, Kennett etc etc would all be there.....and of course Bob Brown, Penny Wong, etc would not.
But that's all OK....I guess we shall see what we will see.
Variety is the spice of life, is it not?
Cheers, Pickles.

**wizofoz** · 11-09-2011, 09:14 PM

No probs pickles, but tell me ..would Hawke and Keating get a run in your fantay team?

It has been well nigh four years since the end of the Howard years, and despite having a one seat majority in the current parliament, the GFC, and other storms to deal with, the sky has not actually fallen in, despite predictions to the contrary.

Yes the current mob have made some mistakes, I think they panicked a little with the GFC spending on insulation packages, (but the school bulding programme seems to have been a far biggere succes - I'm not saying its perfect, just better.) and yet the sun rises every morning and as far as I can tell from here, fortress Oz still has the best accom on the planet.

They seem to be doing a better job than you give them credit for.

In an effort to find something to agree on, what do you think of this initiative? Do you think that the lowly paid should get a pay rise? Seems fair enough to me.

Julia Gillard pledges $2 billion to cover pay rises for 150,000 lowest paid | Herald Sun

Ratmagiclady · 11-09-2011, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by wizofoz

You are a wise woman RML.

There is often more depth to people than appearances (and even political allegiences) may conceal. Vive la difference`

So they've accused at times. Possibly I've just been kicked in the kidneys. A lot.

(Ever wonder why I'm always with the smiley, btw? Possibly, despite it all, it's not as bad as it sounds I mean, look around. . Brilliant. .

Where's my aqua-net.

You Tube

Oi!

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 11-09-2011 at 10:57 PM.

pickles · 11-09-2011, 11:38 PM

Wiz.....Hawke & Keating?.....well "probably" not....but I'm not saying they didn't have good points....of course they did......just that I'd probably pick others from "my" side.
"Wage increase".....I'm really never in favour of them......because at the end of the day.....no-one ever wins.....In Vic, we've got the Police who just got a massive rise.....now the Nurses & also the Teachers want similar or more increases, because they're "more important"??
EVERYBODY wants pay increases...at the end of the day.....EVERYBODY eventually gets one too.....prices then go up, costs go up, no-one really is any better off.....in the long term.
But hey, I'll tell you one thing Wiz.....and here we will agree.....before I retired I was in the Banking Industry....nothing special.....just an ordinary middle manager (I was in the Union too.....unlike a lot of younger staff!), & I can tell you that I reckon that a Bank C.E.O. taking home $15M, is obscene.
Cheers, Pickles.

**wizofoz** · 11-10-2011, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by pickles

Wiz.....Hawke & Keating?.....well "probably" not....but I'm not saying they didn't have good points....of course they did......just that I'd probably pick others from "my" side.
"Wage increase".....I'm really never in favour of them......because at the end of the day.....no-one ever wins.....In Vic, we've got the Police who just got a massive rise.....now the Nurses & also the Teachers want similar or more increases, because they're "more important"??
EVERYBODY wants pay increases...at the end of the day.....EVERYBODY eventually gets one too.....prices then go up, costs go up, no-one really is any better off.....in the long term.
But hey, I'll tell you one thing Wiz.....and here we will agree.....before I retired I was in the Banking Industry....nothing special.....just an ordinary middle manager (I was in the Union too.....unlike a lot of younger staff!), & I can tell you that I reckon that a Bank C.E.O. taking home $15M, is obscene.
Cheers, Pickles.

Pickels, me ol' china. We are definately, 110% agreed about that last bit! Might even buy you a beer one day on the strength of it. (finally finding agreement...)

**wizofoz** · 11-10-2011, 06:03 AM

and pickles, that was the point of my post about the 'fantasy team'. It takes out dogma, it takes out the 'team' focus, and helps to focus on that fact that the vast majority of people who enter politics do it for the same reason; to help others. It does'nt really matter which side of the pendulum they find themselves on, by and large, Australain politics nibbles at the edges of right v left. If you cant bring yourself to find good qualities in people who have obvious talent from the 'other team', then I guess our conversation is at an end.

You have no room for the most far seeing, far reaching leaders we have had post Menzies? Thats not just sad, it is silly and biased.

Allow yourself the indulgence of seeing that people from the other side can play the game too. Even as a Carlton man I can agree that Daicos was a good player.

jeffkrol · 11-10-2011, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Bank C.E.O. taking home $15M, is obscene

Bwhahahahahaha .............. peanuts w/ them pickles???

pickles · 11-10-2011, 03:13 PM

Wiz...."Far Reaching, Far Seeing".....Of course we need those sorts of people, but our perception of who those people really are, is where we differ mate....because as I've said, we have different views.
Also, anyone that doesn't listen to "the other side" is a goose, but having done that, we all make our decision accordingly.....I'm certain that although you & I will never agree on who should run the country & how it should be done, what the priorities are etc etc, & all that sort of stuff, I'm damn sure I do listen to Bob Brown, &Penny Wong, same as you probably listen to Tony Abbott & John Howard......but at the end of the day, "I" decide what I'm going to do....same as you do.
Daicos/Collingwood....Not a fan of either, not really into Footy, Motorsport is my go......BUT, the footballer of the modern era that I most admired was actually a Collingwood player...... Nathan Buckley...the way he carried himself, even when he was injured, is a real example to the youth of today.
Cheers, Pickles.

11-09-2011, 09:14 PM	#66
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	No probs pickles, but tell me ..would Hawke and Keating get a run in your fantay team? It has been well nigh four years since the end of the Howard years, and despite having a one seat majority in the current parliament, the GFC, and other storms to deal with, the sky has not actually fallen in, despite predictions to the contrary. Yes the current mob have made some mistakes, I think they panicked a little with the GFC spending on insulation packages, (but the school bulding programme seems to have been a far biggere succes - I'm not saying its perfect, just better.) and yet the sun rises every morning and as far as I can tell from here, fortress Oz still has the best accom on the planet. They seem to be doing a better job than you give them credit for. In an effort to find something to agree on, what do you think of this initiative? Do you think that the lowly paid should get a pay rise? Seems fair enough to me. Julia Gillard pledges $2 billion to cover pay rises for 150,000 lowest paid \| Herald Sun Last edited by wizofoz; 11-09-2011 at 10:53 PM.

11-10-2011, 06:03 AM	#70
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	and pickles, that was the point of my post about the 'fantasy team'. It takes out dogma, it takes out the 'team' focus, and helps to focus on that fact that the vast majority of people who enter politics do it for the same reason; to help others. It does'nt really matter which side of the pendulum they find themselves on, by and large, Australain politics nibbles at the edges of right v left. If you cant bring yourself to find good qualities in people who have obvious talent from the 'other team', then I guess our conversation is at an end. You have no room for the most far seeing, far reaching leaders we have had post Menzies? Thats not just sad, it is silly and biased. Allow yourself the indulgence of seeing that people from the other side can play the game too. Even as a Carlton man I can agree that Daicos was a good player. Last edited by wizofoz; 11-10-2011 at 03:54 PM.

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11-09-2011, 06:44 PM	#61
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Originally posted by wizofoz Thanks RML, but I preferred the Ella... As an American, I'll say proudly that you rightly should. She's one of our all-time best. Yes, even when I was looking very urban-tribe punky, I would be singing along with the old standards on my Walkman. Which would also freak the mundanes, but in a way they found cheerful. Freaky, but cheerful. It's one of my favorite stories, but I think I actually hung up my old punk rock jacket this one day my little tribe called up a fulll muster, cause I guess the FUndies were swarming the Pit that day, I'm there turning up in full fig and even with stuff pinned inside that jacket to protect the kidneys, And I've got Nat King Cole on my little cassette player. (And half that album was songs Ella did: I misremember which I was singing at the time, (Might have been 'Autumn Leaves,' that was....No, wait, it was 'These Foolish Things,' but I passed this sixty-odd year old couple and being, 'Aww, sweet, they're still in love, all part of the tableau, so I kept singing, and then I get the mother of all funny looks as I pass, and I'm like, 'What?' But what can you do but keep singing. ) I suppose the moral of the story is that even Americans go deeper than we may appear. When Ella passed, I was the Gothy-looking chick singing 'It's Only A Paper Moon. A lot. That's actually as it should be. Identity politics will turn you into something besides what you thought you wanted an identity for. You should always protect your kidneys if you expect trouble, but if you have an identity to politicize, you should be free to sing. Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 11-09-2011 at 06:50 PM.

11-09-2011, 06:54 PM	#62
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	You are a wise woman RML. There is often more depth to people than appearances (and even political allegiences) may conceal. Vive la difference`

11-09-2011, 07:27 PM	#63
pickles Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: melbourne Posts: 937	Wiz..Like I said.....you've got your views.....I've got mine.....we ain't NEVER gonna agree (like the Grammar), so I ain't gonna waste any more of my time....or yours. Mate, if you can't even understand how to give me a straight answer on a simple question as to who you voted for, when I'm quite happy, & proud, to say that I'm a Liberal voter....what hope have we got? However, here's your chance......1...Once again....Who did you vote for? 2.....List the "achievments" & the "disasters" too, if you like, of the Krudd/Gillard "Govt"? Cheers, Pickles. PS...Unlike you....who to date, have been unable to even give a straight answer to question one....I do not "hide" any of my views, or what I say....SO, I'm quite happy to admit that yes, I have used the term JuLIAR.....simply because it's true......and hey, ...it could be said of many other Polies too..on both sides of the fence!......but it doesn't come close to the terminology you used to desribe Tony. There's plenty of people I'd call a liar, & there's plenty of people I don't like, but I'd NEVER describe them as you do, in that way.....but, like I said, you & I are, very certainly, "Poles Apart".

11-09-2011, 07:58 PM	#64
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	Its pretty simple pickles. I asked you to do something, then you asked me to do something. I was waiting for you to respond first. Still am. For your information, and it will be of no surprise to you, that I tend to vote for the candidate that best reflects my personal more`s and beliefs. I am a left leaning person, so I try to find the person that best fits that bill. I find that Labor, and in particular the local candidate is not particularly of the left, so she didnt get my vote at the last election. I voted for the green candidate actually, but in the full knowlege that there was absolutely no chance that the Lib candidate wouldnt win. It's a protest vote of sorts, and the only one our democracy (remember when we were talking about democracy, rather than personalities?) allows me. Other than running myself, and that my friend will never happen... It is my personal opinion that Australian politics has listed to the right ever since Hawke and Keating took the middle right ground from the Libs. Like a pendulum, it usually swings back the other way eventually, but thanks to the media bias of the Murdoch press and the TV barons, the fulcum has also shifted to the right. I vote for the leftist candidates wherever I find them in a vain attempt to restore the balance. I understand I am tilting at windmills, Qixote like, but nonetheless that is my right. My personal beliefs would see a moderately left leaning, social democratic party in power. Neither too far to the left, nor the right. I'll bet that surprises you. If I were to be given a choice of all the current pollies to be in my 'fantasy team' I would select quite a few of the Libs to be on the front bench. and I would have Turnbull as either leader or treasurer. Swan, Gillard, Smith, Macklin, Rudd and Wong would get a gurnsey. Garret would not. Bob Brown would be a shoe in. Morrison and Dutton would be in the team, Hockey would be in the sin bin, carrying the drinks for now. Abbot would not be allowed to play until he stops wrecking the playing fields, and agrees to stop changing the rules. Chris Pyne could be the spuiker and cheer leader (cause he would look the best of them in a short skirt?) Julie Bishop could be employed to use the 'death look' stare like a hukka to intimidate our opponents, but she wouldnt be in the A team. Barnaby Joyce would be restricted to the circus side show where his talents could be best used. I'd have the independents, Wilkie, Oakshot and Windsor would get a run for the courage and, well, independence, thy have shown. Last edited by wizofoz; 11-09-2011 at 08:05 PM.

11-09-2011, 08:54 PM	#65
pickles Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: melbourne Posts: 937	Wiz....Thank You....I now know where you stand.....Of course I have no problem with it, because that's your democratic right, as is mine, thanks to the great country we live in. And, of course, I would have different people in my Govt of choice....as you're probably aware...Howard, Costello, Hockey, Abbott, Kennett etc etc would all be there.....and of course Bob Brown, Penny Wong, etc would not. But that's all OK....I guess we shall see what we will see. Variety is the spice of life, is it not? Cheers, Pickles.

11-09-2011, 11:38 PM	#68
pickles Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: melbourne Posts: 937	Wiz.....Hawke & Keating?.....well "probably" not....but I'm not saying they didn't have good points....of course they did......just that I'd probably pick others from "my" side. "Wage increase".....I'm really never in favour of them......because at the end of the day.....no-one ever wins.....In Vic, we've got the Police who just got a massive rise.....now the Nurses & also the Teachers want similar or more increases, because they're "more important"?? EVERYBODY wants pay increases...at the end of the day.....EVERYBODY eventually gets one too.....prices then go up, costs go up, no-one really is any better off.....in the long term. But hey, I'll tell you one thing Wiz.....and here we will agree.....before I retired I was in the Banking Industry....nothing special.....just an ordinary middle manager (I was in the Union too.....unlike a lot of younger staff!), & I can tell you that I reckon that a Bank C.E.O. taking home $15M, is obscene. Cheers, Pickles.

11-10-2011, 03:47 AM	#69
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	Originally posted by pickles Wiz.....Hawke & Keating?.....well "probably" not....but I'm not saying they didn't have good points....of course they did......just that I'd probably pick others from "my" side. "Wage increase".....I'm really never in favour of them......because at the end of the day.....no-one ever wins.....In Vic, we've got the Police who just got a massive rise.....now the Nurses & also the Teachers want similar or more increases, because they're "more important"?? EVERYBODY wants pay increases...at the end of the day.....EVERYBODY eventually gets one too.....prices then go up, costs go up, no-one really is any better off.....in the long term. But hey, I'll tell you one thing Wiz.....and here we will agree.....before I retired I was in the Banking Industry....nothing special.....just an ordinary middle manager (I was in the Union too.....unlike a lot of younger staff!), & I can tell you that I reckon that a Bank C.E.O. taking home $15M, is obscene. Cheers, Pickles. Pickels, me ol' china. We are definately, 110% agreed about that last bit! Might even buy you a beer one day on the strength of it. (finally finding agreement...)

11-10-2011, 06:04 AM	#71
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Quote: Bank C.E.O. taking home $15M, is obscene Bwhahahahahaha .............. peanuts w/ them pickles???

11-10-2011, 03:13 PM	#72
pickles Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: melbourne Posts: 937	Wiz...."Far Reaching, Far Seeing".....Of course we need those sorts of people, but our perception of who those people really are, is where we differ mate....because as I've said, we have different views. Also, anyone that doesn't listen to "the other side" is a goose, but having done that, we all make our decision accordingly.....I'm certain that although you & I will never agree on who should run the country & how it should be done, what the priorities are etc etc, & all that sort of stuff, I'm damn sure I do listen to Bob Brown, &Penny Wong, same as you probably listen to Tony Abbott & John Howard......but at the end of the day, "I" decide what I'm going to do....same as you do. Daicos/Collingwood....Not a fan of either, not really into Footy, Motorsport is my go......BUT, the footballer of the modern era that I most admired was actually a Collingwood player...... Nathan Buckley...the way he carried himself, even when he was injured, is a real example to the youth of today. Cheers, Pickles.