Neutrinos measured traveling faster than light

**boriscleto** · 09-22-2011, 07:40 PM

UPDATE 1-Particles found to break speed of light | Reuters

CERN turns physics on it's head.

TomK · 09-22-2011, 08:03 PM

Whoa !
I see that the observers are being very cautious and are asking others to check
their findings and perhaps do other experiments.
I just mailed a friend and told him to throw out his Masters Degree
in Physics since it is no longer valid.

We'll see what unfolds in the next couple of years I guess.

hcarvalhoalves · 09-22-2011, 10:02 PM

Well... first, neutrinos apparently have no mass. Thus, they are not bound to the same limits of particles containing mass, which would require an infinite amount of energy to accelerate up to c (speed of light in vacuum). So nothing extraordinary about it reaching c.

For it to go superluminal is something else, though. In theory, anything traveling at c (a photon) wouldn't experience time - as c is the reference frame, it's like time doesn't pass - but faster than c would possibly mean going back in time! But because neutrinos have no mass, I don't know if that qualifies for faster than light communication (Faster-than-light - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). In other words, if it really means time travel.

Also, given they are detecting neutrinos traveling thru +700km of underground, I wouldn't be surprised if they travel faster than light in vacuum. Materials with different refraction indexes are known to cause some waves to travel faster than c, so maybe analog phenomena could happen for neutrinos while traveling thru mass.

jolepp · 09-23-2011, 12:32 AM

If neutrinos are massless this could just mean that the "cosmic speed limit" is slightly higher than previously thought: the speed of light in vacuum has so far been the fastest observed, if neutrinos have indeed traveled faster then there is a new benchmark. This is not a fundamental change as the speed limit for passing information would still be there and the absolute figure wouldn't have changed that much. However, if neutrinos have a mass, as some recent experiments have suggested and they manage to reach or surpass c, then things are getting really interesting

.

Last edited by jolepp; 09-23-2011 at 01:58 AM.

RioRico · 09-23-2011, 01:11 AM - **1 Like**

If no-thing can travel faster than c, and a neutrino is observed traveling faster than c, then (logically) a neutrino is not a thing. Or, yes, maybe there's a statistical error. Let's await confirmation.

But let's not expect time travel nor intergalactic travel to result from this. Well, intergalactic maybe, but not time travel. Why not? Because we exist. People screw-up stuff. If travel into the past was possible, some human would have traveled as far back as possible, back to The Big Bang. And being human, they would have screwed it up, and we wouldn't exist. Thus is travel into the past impossible, QED. Whew! I can stop worrying about the Grandfather Paradox.

jolepp · 09-23-2011, 01:46 AM

Nature's piece on the topic: Particles break light-speed limit : Nature News

jolepp · 09-23-2011, 08:22 AM

Quote:

"The scientists are right to be extremely cautious about interpreting these findings," said Jim Al-Khalili, a physicist from the University of Surrey, who said that a simple error in the measurement is probably the source of all the fuss.
But he has gone further.
"So let me put my money where my mouth is: if the Cern experiment proves to be correct and neutrinos have broken the speed of light, I will eat my boxer shorts on live TV."

BBC News - Light speed: Flying into fantasy

Parallax · 09-23-2011, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by hcarvalhoalves

For it to go superluminal is something else, though. In theory, anything traveling at c (a photon) wouldn't experience time - as c is the reference frame, it's like time doesn't pass - but faster than c would possibly mean going back in time! But because neutrinos have no mass, I don't know if that qualifies for faster than light communication (Faster-than-light - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). In other words, if it really means time travel.

I was doing fine until you brought that up.
Now my head hurts.............................

**boriscleto** · 09-23-2011, 09:03 AM

Too bad Fermilab doesn't have the funding to upgrade their instruments. They were onto this in 2007 but their instruments are less accurate than CERN's.

MRRiley · 09-23-2011, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by RioRico

But let's not expect time travel nor intergalactic travel to result from this. Well, intergalactic maybe, but not time travel. Why not? Because we exist. People screw-up stuff. If travel into the past was possible, some human would have traveled as far back as possible, back to The Big Bang. And being human, they would have screwed it up, and we wouldn't exist. Thus is travel into the past impossible, QED. Whew! I can stop worrying about the Grandfather Paradox.

Maybe someone else did go back in time and screwed up the big bang and we were the result... paradoxes are lovely... LOL

**boriscleto** · 09-23-2011, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by MRRiley

Maybe someone else did go back in time and screwed up the big bang and we were the result... paradoxes are lovely... LOL

No, someone went back in time and allowed a space ship loaded with all the most useless members of society to crash into Earth causing the ape-decended lifeform native to the planet to become so depressed they allowed themselves to die off.

RioRico · 09-23-2011, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by jolepp

Nature's piece on the topic: Particles break light-speed limit : Nature News

Excellent comments in there. I like the suggestion that since photons interact with externals more than do neutrinos, it's photons that DON'T reach c, while neutrinos DO. Thus actual c is the speed of neutrinos, not the speed of photons|light. So what would then be non-Einsteinian would be travel FTN not FTL. Oh FTW!!

300 km/sec:
It's not just a good idea
IT'S THE LAW!

Ratmagiclady · 09-23-2011, 02:53 PM

Well, lads, that could be my ride.

Parallax · 09-23-2011, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Ratmagiclady

Well, lads, that could be my ride.

I wouldn't "phone home" just yet.

Ratmagiclady · 09-23-2011, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

I wouldn't "phone home" just yet.

Already did that later.

Keep trying to say that velocity C isn't a number writ in 'law,' ...it's a shape. Neutrinos... Are pretty weakly-dragged-upon, right? (Well, by our standards of matter, right?) Either there's been a couple of progressively-big instrument failures, we're increasingly-able to see the ones not-dragged the way we're used to/expecting, or something's been starting to drag them that way a while now....

Self-deprecating jokes aside, seems to me either someone's learning something, or something new is happening.

If it's making neutrinos start backwards, could be the wake of something. Hence the joke.

09-22-2011, 07:40 PM	#1
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Neutrinos measured traveling faster than light UPDATE 1-Particles found to break speed of light \| Reuters CERN turns physics on it's head.

09-23-2011, 10:27 AM	#12
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by jolepp Nature's piece on the topic: Particles break light-speed limit : Nature News Excellent comments in there. I like the suggestion that since photons interact with externals more than do neutrinos, it's photons that DON'T reach c, while neutrinos DO. Thus actual c is the speed of neutrinos, not the speed of photons\|light. So what would then be non-Einsteinian would be travel FTN not FTL. Oh FTW!! 300 km/sec: It's not just a good idea IT'S THE LAW!

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09-22-2011, 08:03 PM	#2
TomK Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: NJ USA Posts: 281	Whoa ! I see that the observers are being very cautious and are asking others to check their findings and perhaps do other experiments. I just mailed a friend and told him to throw out his Masters Degree in Physics since it is no longer valid. We'll see what unfolds in the next couple of years I guess.

09-22-2011, 10:02 PM	#3
hcarvalhoalves Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: São Paulo, Brazil Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,019	Well... first, neutrinos apparently have no mass. Thus, they are not bound to the same limits of particles containing mass, which would require an infinite amount of energy to accelerate up to c (speed of light in vacuum). So nothing extraordinary about it reaching c. For it to go superluminal is something else, though. In theory, anything traveling at c (a photon) wouldn't experience time - as c is the reference frame, it's like time doesn't pass - but faster than c would possibly mean going back in time! But because neutrinos have no mass, I don't know if that qualifies for faster than light communication (Faster-than-light - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). In other words, if it really means time travel. Also, given they are detecting neutrinos traveling thru +700km of underground, I wouldn't be surprised if they travel faster than light in vacuum. Materials with different refraction indexes are known to cause some waves to travel faster than c, so maybe analog phenomena could happen for neutrinos while traveling thru mass.

09-23-2011, 12:32 AM	#4
jolepp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Finland Photos: Albums Posts: 3,196	If neutrinos are massless this could just mean that the "cosmic speed limit" is slightly higher than previously thought: the speed of light in vacuum has so far been the fastest observed, if neutrinos have indeed traveled faster then there is a new benchmark. This is not a fundamental change as the speed limit for passing information would still be there and the absolute figure wouldn't have changed that much. However, if neutrinos have a mass, as some recent experiments have suggested and they manage to reach or surpass c, then things are getting really interesting . Last edited by jolepp; 09-23-2011 at 01:58 AM.

09-23-2011, 01:11 AM - 1 Like	#5
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	If no-thing can travel faster than c, and a neutrino is observed traveling faster than c, then (logically) a neutrino is not a thing. Or, yes, maybe there's a statistical error. Let's await confirmation. But let's not expect time travel nor intergalactic travel to result from this. Well, intergalactic maybe, but not time travel. Why not? Because we exist. People screw-up stuff. If travel into the past was possible, some human would have traveled as far back as possible, back to The Big Bang. And being human, they would have screwed it up, and we wouldn't exist. Thus is travel into the past impossible, QED. Whew! I can stop worrying about the Grandfather Paradox.

09-23-2011, 01:46 AM	#6
jolepp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Finland Photos: Albums Posts: 3,196	Nature's piece on the topic: Particles break light-speed limit : Nature News

09-23-2011, 08:22 AM	#7
jolepp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Finland Photos: Albums Posts: 3,196	Quote: "The scientists are right to be extremely cautious about interpreting these findings," said Jim Al-Khalili, a physicist from the University of Surrey, who said that a simple error in the measurement is probably the source of all the fuss. But he has gone further. "So let me put my money where my mouth is: if the Cern experiment proves to be correct and neutrinos have broken the speed of light, I will eat my boxer shorts on live TV." BBC News - Light speed: Flying into fantasy

09-23-2011, 08:35 AM	#8
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by hcarvalhoalves For it to go superluminal is something else, though. In theory, anything traveling at c (a photon) wouldn't experience time - as c is the reference frame, it's like time doesn't pass - but faster than c would possibly mean going back in time! But because neutrinos have no mass, I don't know if that qualifies for faster than light communication (Faster-than-light - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). In other words, if it really means time travel. I was doing fine until you brought that up. Now my head hurts.............................

09-23-2011, 09:03 AM	#9
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475 Original Poster	Too bad Fermilab doesn't have the funding to upgrade their instruments. They were onto this in 2007 but their instruments are less accurate than CERN's.

09-23-2011, 09:04 AM	#10
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by RioRico But let's not expect time travel nor intergalactic travel to result from this. Well, intergalactic maybe, but not time travel. Why not? Because we exist. People screw-up stuff. If travel into the past was possible, some human would have traveled as far back as possible, back to The Big Bang. And being human, they would have screwed it up, and we wouldn't exist. Thus is travel into the past impossible, QED. Whew! I can stop worrying about the Grandfather Paradox. Maybe someone else did go back in time and screwed up the big bang and we were the result... paradoxes are lovely... LOL

09-23-2011, 09:08 AM	#11
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475 Original Poster	Originally posted by MRRiley Maybe someone else did go back in time and screwed up the big bang and we were the result... paradoxes are lovely... LOL No, someone went back in time and allowed a space ship loaded with all the most useless members of society to crash into Earth causing the ape-decended lifeform native to the planet to become so depressed they allowed themselves to die off.

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09-23-2011, 02:53 PM	#13
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Well, lads, that could be my ride.

09-23-2011, 03:06 PM	#14
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by Ratmagiclady Well, lads, that could be my ride. I wouldn't "phone home" just yet.

09-23-2011, 04:37 PM	#15
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Originally posted by Parallax I wouldn't "phone home" just yet. Already did that later. Keep trying to say that velocity C isn't a number writ in 'law,' ...it's a shape. Neutrinos... Are pretty weakly-dragged-upon, right? (Well, by our standards of matter, right?) Either there's been a couple of progressively-big instrument failures, we're increasingly-able to see the ones not-dragged the way we're used to/expecting, or something's been starting to drag them that way a while now.... Self-deprecating jokes aside, seems to me either someone's learning something, or something new is happening. If it's making neutrinos start backwards, could be the wake of something. Hence the joke.