An article about the internal division of Israel

jolepp · 09-24-2011, 10:47 PM

... which sounds pretty bad (or at least much worse than I ever realized).

Quote:

If you think Israelis and Palestinians don't see eye to eye, the gulf between secular Israelis and the ultra-orthodox religious is probably just as wide.
Go to Tel Aviv on a Saturday morning, and you'll see one version of Israel – secular, middle-class sun-worshippers, sitting in trendy beachside cafes, munching on bacon and eggs, or hummus and salad.
Then, on the same Saturday morning, drive 40 minutes up the highway to Jerusalem, where you'll visit an entirely different country. Here, there are no cars, and streets are closed off with police barriers – as ultra-orthodox Jews in black overcoats and fur hats walk to the Western Wall to pray.
And no, the two groups don't get along.
Secular Israelis work, pay taxes, and serve in the army. Ultra-orthodox, or Haredi Jews, don't.
Secular Israelis are prepared to die for their country in battle, but have to travel outside it to get married in a civil ceremony.
Not surprisingly, it's a pretty sore point. Especially as the demographic balance is shifting fast.

Make no mistake, Israel's existence is under threat - The Drum (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

adr1an · 09-24-2011, 10:49 PM

Ben writes some interesting stuff.. but it can be a little, ahhhh, overstated occasionally....

wildman · 09-24-2011, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by jolepp

Especially as the demographic balance is shifting fast.

In what direction?

adr1an · 09-24-2011, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by wildman

In what direction?

From Secular (Bacon and Hummus eating Jews

) that work and pay taxes to Ultra-Orthodox (don't work, don't pay tax, just study bible and have kids) ...

Read the article....

Last edited by adr1an; 09-24-2011 at 11:21 PM.

Chwisch87 · 09-25-2011, 01:12 AM

These ultra-orthodox idiots are basically a fast growing parasite that will soon pretty much be a cancer.

I would imagine more secular minded members of society are going to head this off pretty quick and at least cut or reduce state funding to their schools.

adr1an · 09-25-2011, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by Chwisch87

These ultra-orthodox idiots are basically a fast growing parasite that will soon pretty much be a cancer.

I would imagine more secular minded members of society are going to head this off pretty quick and at least cut or reduce state funding to their schools.

Setting aside the opening statement that shows little respect either way and a great example of intolerance in some sections of society....

It's not possible to form government without the ultra orthodox support - they already are very powerful politically. To change the status quo will be political suicide. so no, there will be no easy solution here. It would be like saying you can just discount the Latin culture in US politics..

Perhaps read the article - all that is explained..

**boriscleto** · 09-25-2011, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by jolepp

Secular Israelis work, pay taxes, and serve in the army. Ultra-orthodox, or Haredi Jews, don't.

So Israel has its own Tea Party.

Last edited by boriscleto; 09-25-2011 at 07:23 AM.

GeneV · 09-25-2011, 07:02 AM

We got a little taste of where the orthodox groups are going with the election in NY9 earlier this month. Much like the Christian Right, single issues trump.

shooz · 09-25-2011, 07:26 AM

Take a look at states with a strongly orthodox evangelical base.
They are among the poorest and least educated, and are the most likely to get fired up over a single issue.

**boriscleto** · 09-25-2011, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

We got a little taste of where the orthodox groups are going with the election in NY9 earlier this month. Much like the Christian Right, single issues trump.

NY loses 2 seats next year, NY9 will be one of them.

GeneV · 09-25-2011, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

NY loses 2 seats next year, NY9 will be one of them.

True. I posted a map in another thread, but that is the most ridiculous district I've seen. It consists of 4 separate "islands" enclosed by other districts and bodies of water.

**boriscleto** · 09-26-2011, 09:41 AM

After seeing that interview with the NYPD commissioner on 60 Minutes last night where he laid out all the extraconstitutional stuff he is doing I had a thought. Why not give NYC and Long Island to the secular Jews to be their homeland (they own most of it already)? Leave the Ultra-orthodox to fend for themselves.

You Tube

Chwisch87 · 09-27-2011, 01:57 AM

I mean these Ultra-Orthodox groups refuse to work, their schools only teach the bible, all day, every day. No science. They don't pay taxes, and the refuse to join the military (because they need to reread the bible for the 1000th time). They live off the israeli welfare state that allows them to be able to afford to have 8 to 9 kids without starving. Not paying any taxes, or joining the military, by god they vote!

And its true that in the current coalition, the secular conservatives would have find ~17 votes, I think, in the knesset from a centre party to form a weak coalition if they wanted to kick the orthodox parties out.

You cut back their welfare and end their religious schools, they won't be having 8-9 kids anymore.

Jodokast96 · 09-27-2011, 02:19 AM

Oh the hipocrisy, lol. Funny how all those that have no desire to remove drug users here from welfare have no problem telling another country they need to cut off their bible thumping recipients.

GeneV · 09-27-2011, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Jodokast96

Oh the hipocrisy, lol. Funny how all those that have no desire to remove drug users here from welfare have no problem telling another country they need to cut off their bible thumping recipients.

I don't think you will find much support here for government payments to people who make an overt choice not to work, regardless of the reason.

09-24-2011, 10:47 PM	#1
jolepp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Finland Photos: Albums Posts: 3,196	An article about the internal division of Israel ... which sounds pretty bad (or at least much worse than I ever realized). Quote: If you think Israelis and Palestinians don't see eye to eye, the gulf between secular Israelis and the ultra-orthodox religious is probably just as wide. Go to Tel Aviv on a Saturday morning, and you'll see one version of Israel – secular, middle-class sun-worshippers, sitting in trendy beachside cafes, munching on bacon and eggs, or hummus and salad. Then, on the same Saturday morning, drive 40 minutes up the highway to Jerusalem, where you'll visit an entirely different country. Here, there are no cars, and streets are closed off with police barriers – as ultra-orthodox Jews in black overcoats and fur hats walk to the Western Wall to pray. And no, the two groups don't get along. Secular Israelis work, pay taxes, and serve in the army. Ultra-orthodox, or Haredi Jews, don't. Secular Israelis are prepared to die for their country in battle, but have to travel outside it to get married in a civil ceremony. Not surprisingly, it's a pretty sore point. Especially as the demographic balance is shifting fast. Make no mistake, Israel's existence is under threat - The Drum (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

09-25-2011, 01:25 AM	#6
adr1an Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canberra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 739	Originally posted by Chwisch87 These ultra-orthodox idiots are basically a fast growing parasite that will soon pretty much be a cancer. I would imagine more secular minded members of society are going to head this off pretty quick and at least cut or reduce state funding to their schools. Setting aside the opening statement that shows little respect either way and a great example of intolerance in some sections of society.... It's not possible to form government without the ultra orthodox support - they already are very powerful politically. To change the status quo will be political suicide. so no, there will be no easy solution here. It would be like saying you can just discount the Latin culture in US politics.. Perhaps read the article - all that is explained.. Last edited by adr1an; 09-25-2011 at 02:37 AM.

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09-24-2011, 10:49 PM	#2
adr1an Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canberra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 739	Ben writes some interesting stuff.. but it can be a little, ahhhh, overstated occasionally....

09-24-2011, 10:59 PM	#3
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469	Originally posted by jolepp Especially as the demographic balance is shifting fast. In what direction?

09-24-2011, 11:02 PM	#4
adr1an Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canberra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 739	Originally posted by wildman In what direction? From Secular (Bacon and Hummus eating Jews ) that work and pay taxes to Ultra-Orthodox (don't work, don't pay tax, just study bible and have kids) ... Read the article.... Last edited by adr1an; 09-24-2011 at 11:21 PM.

09-25-2011, 01:12 AM	#5
Chwisch87 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Atlanta, GA Photos: Gallery Posts: 317	These ultra-orthodox idiots are basically a fast growing parasite that will soon pretty much be a cancer. I would imagine more secular minded members of society are going to head this off pretty quick and at least cut or reduce state funding to their schools.

09-25-2011, 06:20 AM	#7
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,476	Originally posted by jolepp Secular Israelis work, pay taxes, and serve in the army. Ultra-orthodox, or Haredi Jews, don't. So Israel has its own Tea Party. Last edited by boriscleto; 09-25-2011 at 07:23 AM.

09-25-2011, 07:02 AM	#8
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	We got a little taste of where the orthodox groups are going with the election in NY9 earlier this month. Much like the Christian Right, single issues trump.

09-25-2011, 07:26 AM	#9
shooz Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Detroit Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,491	Take a look at states with a strongly orthodox evangelical base. They are among the poorest and least educated, and are the most likely to get fired up over a single issue.

09-25-2011, 07:31 AM	#10
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,476	Originally posted by GeneV We got a little taste of where the orthodox groups are going with the election in NY9 earlier this month. Much like the Christian Right, single issues trump. NY loses 2 seats next year, NY9 will be one of them.

09-25-2011, 08:01 AM	#11
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by boriscleto NY loses 2 seats next year, NY9 will be one of them. True. I posted a map in another thread, but that is the most ridiculous district I've seen. It consists of 4 separate "islands" enclosed by other districts and bodies of water.

09-27-2011, 01:57 AM	#13
Chwisch87 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Atlanta, GA Photos: Gallery Posts: 317	I mean these Ultra-Orthodox groups refuse to work, their schools only teach the bible, all day, every day. No science. They don't pay taxes, and the refuse to join the military (because they need to reread the bible for the 1000th time). They live off the israeli welfare state that allows them to be able to afford to have 8 to 9 kids without starving. Not paying any taxes, or joining the military, by god they vote! And its true that in the current coalition, the secular conservatives would have find ~17 votes, I think, in the knesset from a centre party to form a weak coalition if they wanted to kick the orthodox parties out. You cut back their welfare and end their religious schools, they won't be having 8-9 kids anymore.

09-27-2011, 02:19 AM	#14
Jodokast96 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Erial, NJ USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,134	Oh the hipocrisy, lol. Funny how all those that have no desire to remove drug users here from welfare have no problem telling another country they need to cut off their bible thumping recipients.

09-27-2011, 07:13 AM	#15
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Jodokast96 Oh the hipocrisy, lol. Funny how all those that have no desire to remove drug users here from welfare have no problem telling another country they need to cut off their bible thumping recipients. I don't think you will find much support here for government payments to people who make an overt choice not to work, regardless of the reason.