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10-14-2011, 11:41 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
I take the train and walk the rest to and from work everyday, I buy energy efficient products, cloth diapers and I recycle. There are so many things we could do to dramatically reduce our carbon footprint with minimal effort. The combustion engine needs to die, it's a century old technology that's day is long over, but so long as the powers that be are making record profits we're never going to be free of it.
And in the meantime continue to do what you can, we will eventually all change and then so will the corporations (and in some cases the corporations and then us) We must all do what we can and there is nothing wrong about pointing out what you see as wrong. Many Albertans feel a personal attack if the oil sands are attacked. Personally I see the rate of expansion of the explotiation an economic nightmare on top of its effect on the environment

10-14-2011, 01:10 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
it requires people to actually do something themselves
At the end of the day it requires people to see the environment in ethical and moral terms.
I think its fair to say that man, with respect to the environment, still sees nature much as our hunter-gatherer ancestors did.
10-14-2011, 01:41 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
And in the meantime continue to do what you can, we will eventually all change and then so will the corporations (and in some cases the corporations and then us) We must all do what we can and there is nothing wrong about pointing out what you see as wrong. Many Albertans feel a personal attack if the oil sands are attacked. Personally I see the rate of expansion of the explotiation an economic nightmare on top of its effect on the environment
It's not 'attacking' 'the oil sands' to value what's on top of them, even from a distance, over the machine that claims they're 'economically-viable.'


Even to, as was pointed out, level forests and not even consider it 'worthwhile' to harvest the wood. I don't think anyone's even *looking* at a way to try and get the methane out of the sorry-we-probably-can't-stop-it permafrost. And at this point, that methane's going to be released. While probably making swamp and morass out of a lot of Canadian real estate. While making the rest even worse. I can't do the math at this point, but at *least* instead of selling that to *burn* it, why not use the long-chain polymers to collect the *methane? * I think we might be at that point, sad to say. Better to burn it than just release it, while burning more fossil fuels to create more fossil fuels, ...the scale may boggle, but as a world what we're burning isn't just any old hydrocarbons, it's also *exceptionally-useful long-chain polymers * And we're scrabbling over oil on thinnish margins while ignoring the fact that 'natural gas' is fixing to *really* screw us. If we *don't* use it.


(And I really don't know if we can. But if we can fill ocean gyres with plastic, maybe we can catch some methane. The scale is of course, big. Big like some people don't grok. But things have been bigger than us before.)


(And I don't *particularly* like the idea of trying to Saran-wrap Nunavut, but it may be better than stripping out forests to burn more oil to make it more of a stinking morass up there, making even worse climate feedbacks, either. If you think CO2's a problem, try methane releases from melted taiga. )
10-14-2011, 01:58 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
It's not 'attacking' 'the oil sands' to value what's on top of them, even from a distance, over the machine that claims they're 'economically-viable.'


Even to, as was pointed out, level forests and not even consider it 'worthwhile' to harvest the wood. I don't think anyone's even *looking* at a way to try and get the methane out of the sorry-we-probably-can't-stop-it permafrost. And at this point, that methane's going to be released. While probably making swamp and morass out of a lot of Canadian real estate. While making the rest even worse. I can't do the math at this point, but at *least* instead of selling that to *burn* it, why not use the long-chain polymers to collect the *methane? * I think we might be at that point, sad to say. Better to burn it than just release it, while burning more fossil fuels to create more fossil fuels, ...the scale may boggle, but as a world what we're burning isn't just any old hydrocarbons, it's also *exceptionally-useful long-chain polymers * And we're scrabbling over oil on thinnish margins while ignoring the fact that 'natural gas' is fixing to *really* screw us. If we *don't* use it.


(And I really don't know if we can. But if we can fill ocean gyres with plastic, maybe we can catch some methane. The scale is of course, big. Big like some people don't grok. But things have been bigger than us before.)


(And I don't *particularly* like the idea of trying to Saran-wrap Nunavut, but it may be better than stripping out forests to burn more oil to make it more of a stinking morass up there, making even worse climate feedbacks, either. If you think CO2's a problem, try methane releases from melted taiga. )
You're right, methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas. My biggest complaint here is the climate change for the whole world. We first world nations pollute as much as we like and the rest of the world has to pay for it. Even doing my best to reduce my footprint, just by virtue of living in a first world (or emerging nation) I am causing much more destruction to the planet than the rest of the world population, and they just have to take it. That's not fair. We need to put our resources towards saving this planet and finding the cleanest energy sources we can.

10-14-2011, 03:14 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
You're right, methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas. My biggest complaint here is the climate change for the whole world. We first world nations pollute as much as we like and the rest of the world has to pay for it. Even doing my best to reduce my footprint, just by virtue of living in a first world (or emerging nation) I am causing much more destruction to the planet than the rest of the world population, and they just have to take it. That's not fair. We need to put our resources towards saving this planet and finding the cleanest energy sources we can.

The time to not-export the unfairness was twenty years ago, but, yes, I agree with you. But it's not even about comparison at this point. We find a way to un**** this, or it just doesn't matter who does more of it.

And what keeps me up nights is that probably sooner or later someone's going to do the math and decide the only way to preserve their 'values' on a planet they're already finding is *not* infinitely-abuseable... is to kill a lot of people. And I assure you I say this as someone downwind of a prime target. (And what's *really* scary is, I have more faith in people than the entire GOP Presidential field)

Call me crazy, and you'd be right to, but while people preach' We need infinite capitalism till 'the end of the world' which has nothing to do with our actions and demands...'


I don't hold to that, but I've sure spent a lot of my life fighting for a future less bleak and sad than I seem to remember it as. But I do know that 'ends of the world' are never so tidy as they're cracked up to be, and people really do have to live in the consequences.

We're smarter than this.

Of course, messed-up systems as they are, I think we only get a couple of choices in life:

Freak out and hurt someone

Or, freak out and help someone.

(And Gods help us if we confuse the two.)

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 10-14-2011 at 03:44 PM.
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