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10-14-2011, 07:50 AM   #1
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Tar Sands Deathblow for the Environment

So it's Canada up to something nefarious this time(say it ain't so), but of course, if there's some good old fashioned climate destruction going on, we have to get involved. Tar sands are an inefficient, but abundant, source of petroleum. For every 3 gallons of oil produced we burn up 1 gallon of fossil fuels. The emissions are likely to increase 33% from this production, and we're allowing them to build the pipeline.

QuoteQuote:
It projects that Canada will double its current tar sands production over the next decade to more than 1.8 million barrels a day. That rate will mean cutting down some 740,000 acres of boreal forest — a natural carbon reservoir. Extracting oil from tar sands is also much more complicated than pumping conventional crude oil out of the ground. It requires steam-heating the sands to produce a petroleum slurry, then further dilution.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/opinion/tar-sands-and-the-carbon-numbers.html

Tar Sands Action

10-14-2011, 07:57 AM   #2
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Would a corporation do that?
You would think that at least the cost of wood would go down, over the increase in supply.

NOPE. Those prices went up too.
10-14-2011, 08:08 AM   #3
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As long as gas is above $3 bucks a gallon (or somewhere thereabout) the tar sands will be economically viable. I'm not condoning it at all, but as long as the oil market is artificially inflated on speculation extracting oil from the tar sands will be economically viable for Alberta.
10-14-2011, 08:20 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by pxpaulx Quote
the oil market is artificially inflated
Why not say what it is?
We are and have been for some time now, being GOUGED on the price of fuels.

We've been getting gouged in most markets, not just petroleum.

10-14-2011, 08:48 AM   #5
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The logical conclusion is that as carbon fuels continue to become scarcer and more expensive (even without artificial inflation), in time all tar sand locations will inevitably look like the after picture. And then, and only then, will some form of greener energy be viable. The market has spoken.
10-14-2011, 09:09 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by pxpaulx Quote
As long as gas is above $3 bucks a gallon (or somewhere thereabout) the tar sands will be economically viable. I'm not condoning it at all, but as long as the oil market is artificially inflated on speculation extracting oil from the tar sands will be economically viable for Alberta.
Part of the reason they are economically viable is there is a royalty holiday as well as a reduced royalty rate. If alternative energies had the same sort of non level playing fields as the oil sands, they too would be more economically vialbe. Royality for those who do not know is the rate the oil companies pay the government for the resource. I could be well off base, others on the forum may be better informed but IIRC the normal royalty rate is 30% and the oils sands is 1%. That means that for every 100 barrels of oil taken from the oil sands, 1 barrel belongs to the crown (read the citizens of Alberta)

The first plant up there opened in the early 70s by the way. As both an Environmentalist and an Albertan my biggest opposition to it is the number of plants that went up in a short period of time, no studies on the cummulative affects and a big socio-economic impact on the people already up there compared to a slower expansion. Plus over time more efficient and hopefull more environmentally friendly processes and procedures would be developed but as it is there was an immense rush to get up there and take out as much as fast as you can.

Edward Burtisky's (spelling most likely wrong) images of it are wonderful
10-14-2011, 10:33 AM   #7
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The US has to understand that whether or not the Keystone project gets approved the "Tar/Oil Sands" are still going to get mined. China is here buying up a lot of the stake.
(China's CNOOC buying Canadian oilsands producer - World - CBC News )
(China invests billions in Canada oil sands - Houston Chronicle)

There is a proposed pipeline that will ship the oil straight to the Pacific where it will be loaded on ships to send to Asia. (Northern Gateway Pipelines | Enbridge Northern Gateway Pipelines, Enbridge gateway pipeline, Enbridge Gateway Project)

The US has a chance to provide refinery jobs that pay really well and will help the economy where there are no jobs... Most Canadians don't understand why we send it down there unprocessed and would love to do it here. The problem is that we don't have a enough refineries. The Alberta Government has approved a new refinery built by CNRL and should be online by 2015.

The United States is lucky to have this opportunity to have have this bitumen shipped to them. The Iraq war has cost over a million civilian lives. Is that the choice of the American people?

10-14-2011, 10:42 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Babbs Quote
There is a proposed pipeline that will ship the oil straight to the Pacific where it will be loaded on ships to send to Asia. (Northern Gateway Pipelines | Enbridge Northern Gateway Pipelines, Enbridge gateway pipeline, Enbridge Gateway Project)
One pipline will go through to the Gulf.
10-14-2011, 10:52 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Babbs Quote
The United States is lucky to have this opportunity to have have this bitumen shipped to them.
Lucky USA, unlucky planet, seems to go hand in hand.
10-14-2011, 11:05 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by shooz Quote
Why not say what it is?
We are and have been for some time now, being GOUGED on the price of fuels.

We've been getting gouged in most markets, not just petroleum.
No matter how we say it semantically, we're all getting screwed.
10-14-2011, 11:09 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
Lucky USA, unlucky planet, seems to go hand in hand.
Unfortunately there are environmental costs to almost all energy extraction. The oil sands maybe worse than most and is also more visual because it is spacially more concentrated. Drilling and buidling pipelines througout the grasslands and foothills destroys and fragments habitat as well and over a much larger area. The only energy source that has no environmental negatives is conservation, in simply using less and not miniumizing waste however it requires people to actually do something themselves
10-14-2011, 11:21 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Unfortunately there are environmental costs to almost all energy extraction. The oil sands maybe worse than most and is also more visual because it is spacially more concentrated. Drilling and buidling pipelines througout the grasslands and foothills destroys and fragments habitat as well and over a much larger area. The only energy source that has no environmental negatives is conservation, in simply using less and not miniumizing waste however it requires people to actually do something themselves
I take the train and walk the rest to and from work everyday, I buy energy efficient products, cloth diapers and I recycle. There are so many things we could do to dramatically reduce our carbon footprint with minimal effort. The combustion engine needs to die, it's a century old technology that's day is long over, but so long as the powers that be are making record profits we're never going to be free of it.
10-14-2011, 11:29 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Unfortunately there are environmental costs to almost all energy extraction. The oil sands maybe worse than most and is also more visual because it is spacially more concentrated.
It's the visual element that has people up in arms. The oil sands is a strip mining operation, much akin to extracting coal.
The OP isn't saying much about that, but is the oil sands project really any uglier than this image, which is a coal mine in Wyoming?


Strip mining is ugly. OTOH, is an oilfield with normal well pump type extraction really any friendlier? It looks like it is, perhaps, because it looks more sterile, but that sterility is the problem.
I would love to live in a world where strip mining wasn't a reality, but unfortunately, as a society we have chosen to need the resources available by strip mining.
10-14-2011, 11:38 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
It's the visual element that has people up in arms. The oil sands is a strip mining operation, much akin to extracting coal.
The OP isn't saying much about that, but is the oil sands project really any uglier than this image, which is a coal mine in Wyoming?

<img>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Coal_mine_Wyoming.jpg</img>

Strip mining is ugly. OTOH, is an oilfield with normal well pump type extraction really any friendlier? It looks like it is, perhaps, because it looks more sterile, but that sterility is the problem.
I would love to live in a world where strip mining wasn't a reality, but unfortunately, as a society we have chosen to need the resources available by strip mining.
And on top of that we also live in socities where our regulations are almost to the lowest common denominator as if we don't allow the strip mine in our province/state/country it will go elsewhere. I have always thought that trade wherther it is free trade or traiffs should take in to account the environment and health. Am I willing to pay more? Yes but it only works if we all pay for it otherwise it is an exercise in just feeling good about ourselves. And in the end we all pay the price of destroyed environments, lost cultures species societies etc. Just how we pay for it is the story. In other words we do not pay for the full price of our products just the cost of production, the rest we leave to someone else. Energy and other resource extraction products are just simplier to see the damage they do. I do not advoacte we live without power, cars or cameras but that we that we are entitled to those products being efficient and that their true costs are born by the consumer not by others.

One oil sand project is not like having ten oil sand projects and if there were only one or two our refinneries could take care of the oil but we rushed to exploit them and in return exported jobs from our future and also most likely wasted energy sending those jobs down the pipeline.
10-14-2011, 11:40 AM   #15
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cross your fingers.......
Andrea Rossi Answers Questions on the E-Cat
http://brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic-cipo/cpd/eng/patent/2744430/summary.htm...boolean_search

Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-14-2011 at 08:23 PM.
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