[magkelly]

If I see the words sellers must offer "Pay Pal" or "Google Checkout" one more time I think I am going to lose it. I have now lost access to several places I wanted to have my stores placed in because I am not inclined to offer the Devilish Duo. It's not enough that they have my CC info or that they know more personal info about me than even my last lover did. I can't find one decent market site that doesn't apparently have signing up for either one of them as a requirement for selling there.

I've been on the one site for 3 years as a buyer, even listed a few things once before hoping to sell, but now they have this new requirement and my CC which they've always been thrilled to see on file before isn't enough for them. I have been informed if I actually want to list items to sell I have to sign up for online payments. I can apparently buy all I want and accumulate as many feed backs as I like, but if I want to sell, I have to join freakin Pay Pal? The new place I so carefully chose and spent a whole two weeks now setting up in? Same deal. They just refused to approve my site because I wouldn't sign up for one or the other. Get this they allow you to choose MO's only supposedly, you can check that off in your account, no problem, and if the are saying you "must" join up they're putting it way down low in the fine print I hadn't read yet. But if you do just check off MO or cash, etc, you will get an email gently telling you that unless you're willing to take an "approved" online payment source you won't get an approved. Either that or you have to have an approved CC merchant account or they won't allow you to sell.

Well, I don't actually have enough business yet to warrant a merchant account and I am not even sure I'd be able to get one anyhow given my credit has been less than perfect. I'm lucky I have the one CC I do probably. Google Checkout? I am not sure I want Google to have access to my bank accounts et all, thanks, and Pay Pal is even worse. If I wanted to do all that, likely I would just be on Ebay, and that was what I didn't want actually. All those rules, major fees, and all that online payment BS.

I'm a little frustrated. I've spent months at this point prepping for these two stores. I've got logos, pics, descriptions, for 2000 items all ready to go. The only way I can do it is to buy some commercial web space, make my own store site, get a blog, start an e-list, and feed my own web stats into the search engines. So that's what I am going to do even though being on a web mall or using "the" auction site would have been far, far easier. I'm keeping it simple though. Just plain HTML and a basic shopping cart if I can swing that. No auction fees, listing fees, no Ebay or Pay Pal rules and them taking their cut. I may add a merchant account later if I can swing one but for now I'd like to just give my CC as a security thing if I have to, take MO's and provide tracking info.

I need a cheap, reliable business web host though, any suggestions? I could really use some. I don't know who's good. Eventually I may want to sell art prints of my photos in another store too, but that's down the line. I figure a lot of you are independent business people with commercial space. Who are you using and why?

Thanks!

[flashpete]

Don't know where you are, magkelly, and I am just new to this site - today! But I agree re PayPal. I refuse to use them, though I still sell occasionally on eBay. But on my own website I have a downloadable order form which can be completed then emailed, faxed or mailed with credit card details, etc. No big resistance, and the merchant account doesn't cost us much because it is not specifically for on-line transactions, and each must e approved as though a phone or mail order. But it does get rid of the arrogant and high-handed PayPal mob.
Our hosting is done through ICD Soft, with servers in Hong Kong, USA and Europe. Their rates are very competitive and their service is out of this world.
I hope this helps.

[magkelly]

Might thanks, bookmarked for tomorrow. I'm tired to the point of being fried. Too brain dead to read anything that requires a functioning brain. I have web coding skills. I know what Google analytics is. I know how to drive search engines to a site, run a blog, and an e-list. I've never made a shopping cart but suspect it's not as hard as I think and an order form would suit me fine, for now.

I want a real store, I think. Something I have more control over where I can dictate my own terms and accept the payments I want to until I can afford a proper merchant account without having to resort to Pay Pal and so forth. Millions of people have their own darned stores sans these online malls and they do a good business. I'm not planning on becoming the next Amazon.com here. I just want to make a modest living, augment whatever photo work I will be doing, get money coming in for studio equipment et all.

I just want to sell my collectibles and also my craft stuff, camera straps and the like sans all the fuss of dealing with Ebay, Etsy, Bonanza, Ecrater, Atomic Mall, Amazon et all. I've looked at all of them, and a few more I've not listed and I'm not all that impressed with any of them. They all seem to have the same requirements, the same mentality, and the same lack of traffic. I'm just not too sure any of them are really worth signing up for Pay Pal/Google Checkout et all. Most of the people I talk to, even on Ebay, they're not really happy there anymore...

I think I just want my own commercial website instead.

[Philoslothical]

Using some kind of online payment gateway as an intermediary between you and your customers is just a fact of life in selling things online. By not taking one or the other, PayPal or Google Checkout, you're turning away sales. An awful lot of people, who decide to sign up with one or both of these services, would rather that only they have access to their credit card or bank info, and won't trust you to keep their data safe. As a buyer, that's the whole point of PayPal, it insulates you from the seller, and provides some recourse if things go wrong. As a seller, it means a lot of convenience, not having to have your site up to the security standards demanded by credit card companies, not having to worry about storage of that data, and not having to pay for your own merchant account.

I'm not saying there aren't valid reasons to avoid PayPal, but by doing so, you're cutting yourself off from a big portion of your potential customers.

[magkelly]

I do realize that, but I am also cutting myself off from charge backs and scams too, and there has been a lot more of that going on than usual with Ebay, Pal Pay and Google Checkout. Several of my online doll pals have been scammed for some rather large sums and Pay Pal is not being very helpful about it. Also, they have developed this charming habit of freezing accounts sans notice for no reason whatsoever apparently. I'd be new, so I'd likely be waiting up to 90 days for any $$$ all the time for a while. Which means a lot of $$$$ out of pocket for me for shipping and whatnot. Can I afford to do that? Not really.

There's a new thing starting in Jan where people who make over a certain number of transactions or who make over 20K online are supposed to file their SS info with Ebay, Pay Pal etc. Okay, I get that, the IRS wants their share, but what's been happening is Pay Pal has basically been ignoring that set limit and they're pretty much demanding that info period. So far it's a random thing, but I have a feeling next year if you don't want Ebay and Pal Pal to have that info you're screwed no matter how much you make. I know, SOP, they probably have it already if you're a power seller type, but me I don't like that. I don't just like handing some online payment service all of my most sensitive financial on a silver platter. I tend to get squeamish that Amazon has my CC info. There is no privacy with Pay Pal etc. They can freeze your accounts for month at a time just because they feel like it, and they don't have your back as a seller besides? Forgive me if I'm not too impressed. They bend all over the place to protect buyers, but sellers not so much apparently...

I know I will lose some sales until I can afford and obtain a proper merchant account and take MC/Visa. I've worked retail half my life. I'm well aware of how fond most people are of the convenience of using CC's, Pay Pal et all, but I'm also aware of how many scam artists are out there and what games they play. In management I've had to deal with charge backs and stolen merchandise far more often than I'd like. The biggest point of potential loss to any business is shoplifting, and whether it's some person with sticky fingers in a regular store or some person with a habit of reversing sales via their Pay Pal account I can't afford to take that kind of loss all the time. If it wasn't getting so darned common I'd probably go for it, use Ebay and Pay Pal, but of late I have seen way too many people I know taking a hit because the person paid via Pay Pal, supposedly changed their mind or found something "defective" but in the end kept said item sans payment. At least with a legit CC merchant account I have some backup, some recourse for dealing with people like that. Even when I do take MC/Visa I am going to run every card through validation, not just get a swiper. I prefer the phone in method. You can usually catch a lot more people with bad cards that way. Most CC companies tend to flag people who do a lot of reversals and they weed them out, which apparently is more than Pay Pal usually bothers to do.

It will cost me in sales, yes, but in time I will build up a good rep and people will see that I can be reliable. A lot of the things I sell are small and not too expensive so there's room for me to wiggle there. People will often trust someone for small sales before they make large ones. Once they know you they're okay with MO's or whatever. It's all about establishing a trustworthy business and I just don't think I should need Pay Pal to do that for me.

[Philoslothical]

I do realize that, but I am also cutting myself off from charge backs and scams too

You're actually at the same more even more risk of this, by taking credit cards independently on your own site.

Just be very sure you know what you're getting into, if you go that route. The credit card companies are very strict and quite demanding about how you collect and store customer data, and if your site were ever breached, it would be you held responsible entirely (and you will instantly lose your ability to take credit cards in future, so good luck recouping your losses). If you don't know how to safely do this stuff, you will be paying a developer a lot more than the merchant account itself will cost. It's not an economical way to go for most small business, hence the popularity of the various online payment gateways.

I'm not looking to argue here. Examine your options and do whatever you feel is right for you and your business. I'm just trying to make you aware of some of the pitfalls of doing it the hard way.

[jolepp]

I wonder if there is some inexpensive way to register as business and then getting separate bank account and credit card for the business. These could then be used with Paypal and other payment processors keeping your personal money and information separate from the business ones. Even just having separate (personal) bank/credit card accounts for business purposes (Paypal etc.) would help some. Keeping business vs. personal finances segregated is a very good idea anyway (if only to make it easier to deal with taxes). As pointed out, having a payment processor responsible for keeping the CC info of your customers safe would be very good. Check out what your bank / CU can do for you; they might actually be quite supportive of setting up a business, even a small one .

In your situation, I'd be inclined to bite the Paypal/Google/<whatever suits> bullet. Those leave a lot to be desired, but it seems that even the bigger, established resellers have opted for them (e.g. B&H - Paypal); a shrewd merchant hates to lose a sale . I suppose you'd just have to think dealing with the occasional chargeback scammer as a part of the work that goes into running an online business. Otoh most shoppers by far are decent and honest .

[Colbyt]

The pain associated with PayPal or Google is minimal compared to the fees, hassles, liability and security issues involved in processing CC online. I fully investigated it a few years back. With the somewhat recently security standards (2010) update I doubt a really small business can pull it off anymore. For sure you will save no $. The cost of a dedicated IP and an SSL certificate will cost more than a good bit of fees and then the % you pay will be higher than PayPal.

What you should consider is simply having a second bank account where a minimal amount of money is kept, get a CC with a small limit and use those to open your PP account. It does not have to be a business name. Each PP account must be backed by a different bank and CC account. Using a local bank in your area you might even be able to use a CC debit card combo tied to the new bank account.

YMMV, but in many parts of the world you can open a business account without a business license. Do keep in mind that bank fees in th US are much higher for business account than they are for personal accounts.

Edit: I forgot to mention, if your sales will be less than $10 PP also has a "micro" account where the fee are less than a regular account. The break point is $12.xx. Above the break point the fees are higher. Some where on my HD I have this info documented in a spread sheet. If you were selling $5 prints the micro is a no brainer. It is the way to go.