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12-18-2011, 04:24 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Mike, that's a horsehockey and you know it. Taking an oath is all well and good, but when a person discovers wrong doing, that takes precedence. A soldiers oath is to protect his country, not to lie for it, and not to give tacit approval to it's dodgy character and actions.
What Manning apparently did is expose a series of cover ups and wrongdoings.
It may be inconvenient, but morally, he did the correct thing (presuming he actually did anything). If anyone is saying that taking an oath forces a person to act immorally, I would have to question their character.
Swearing an oath, signing a contract, giving your word can all become most inconvenient at times. It can cause moral conflict, financial hardship, all sorts of problems.
If any of you think that a person's word, his bond, his oath, or his signature on a contract should only be binding until it becomes an inconvenience, please contact me. I would like to borrow some money; but don't worry. I give you my word I'll pay you back, I'll even sign a contract.

12-18-2011, 04:49 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Swearing an oath, signing a contract, giving your word can all become most inconvenient at times. It can cause moral conflict, financial hardship, all sorts of problems.
If any of you think that a person's word, his bond, his oath, or his signature on a contract should only be binding until it becomes an inconvenience, please contact me. I would like to borrow some money; but don't worry. I give you my word I'll pay you back, I'll even sign a contract.
I only have very peripheral knowledge of this case so I do not make any judgement on this Per Se.

But I do know that Swearing an Oath or signing a contract versus the morality of certain situations is sometimes never a black and white situation. It is very easy to envisage scenarios where your own internal conscience refuses to permit you to turn a blind eye regardless of any oath. Each man must make a choice based on his own internal moral code depending only on how strong that conflict is.

The easy way is to say you swore your oath now you will simply turn a blind eye to everything - most people I guess can do this. It would really take a philosopher to address this point and even then you would, I'm sure, have conflict between different philosophers.

It really is a case of one mans Traitor is another mans Patriot.
12-18-2011, 06:43 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
I was just referring to the torture.
Please provide verifiable evidence that Manning has been tortured.

QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Leaking evidence of war crimes does not warrant the treatment he has received for the last year.
Manning leaked far more that that and has endangered American citizens all over the world.
12-18-2011, 06:47 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Mike, that's a horsehockey and you know it. Taking an oath is all well and good, but when a person discovers wrong doing, that takes precedence. A soldiers oath is to protect his country, not to lie for it, and not to give tacit approval to it's dodgy character and actions.
What Manning apparently did is expose a series of cover ups and wrongdoings.
It may be inconvenient, but morally, he did the correct thing (presuming he actually did anything). If anyone is saying that taking an oath forces a person to act immorally, I would have to question their character.
If he ever gets out of jail, feel free to invite him to Canada Bill... I wouldn't trust him though if I were you.

Mike

12-18-2011, 06:50 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Swearing an oath, signing a contract, giving your word can all become most inconvenient at times. It can cause moral conflict, financial hardship, all sorts of problems.
If any of you think that a person's word, his bond, his oath, or his signature on a contract should only be binding until it becomes an inconvenience, please contact me. I would like to borrow some money; but don't worry. I give you my word I'll pay you back, I'll even sign a contract.
You sign a contract with a company. One of the clauses is a confidentiality agreement. You discover, through accident that your company is dumping toxic material into a river, material which is banned, and which is causing fish to die and birds to mutate.
Do you live with your confidentiality agreement and let your employer pollute in such a way or do you become a whistle blower?
Do you live with the letter of your agreement or the spirit of your agreement.
Even if it isn't spelled out, there is a presumption that a contract is unenforceable if it coerces you into doing something illegal.
12-18-2011, 06:53 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
Please provide verifiable evidence that Manning has been tortured.



Manning leaked far more that that and has endangered American citizens all over the world.
Mike, if this is the case, then your government is acting against the best interests of it's people, in that it is centering them out for endangerment.
Why do you defend your government when it is actively trying to get you hurt?

QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
If he ever gets out of jail, feel free to invite him to Canada Bill... I wouldn't trust him though if I were you.

Mike
Honestly, I'd have no problem with him living in Canada, though I expect given the opportunity, he would prefer to go home.
12-18-2011, 07:25 PM   #22
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Bradley Manning should have never been granted a security clearance in the first place. There were strong indications from the start he was unsuitable for access to national classified information. But beyond that, security practices in his unit were far below standards and it was a disaster waiting to happen. Nonetheless, I agree with Mike - he took an oath, and he violated that. It's a heinous crime. And for that, he must be punished, after he's received a fair trial in a military court martial. You honestly think he might be remanded on personal recoganizance? He's a military prisoner. Different standards. Again, he took an oath, and he accepted the standards of conduct expected of him. He not only failed, he contravened them grossly, criminally, by his actions. As a retired Master Sergeant in the US Army, I have ZERO sympathy for him. We all make mistakes, but his "mistakes" were not only premeditated, but lethal. For all of you sympathetic to his circumstances, imagine instead he did something to you personally on this level. Would you still be so sympathetic?
12-18-2011, 07:30 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lex Madera Quote
For all of you sympathetic to his circumstances, imagine instead he did something to you personally on this level. Would you still be so sympathetic?
I wouldn't have done the bad things that he leaked.....

12-18-2011, 08:13 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You sign a contract with a company. One of the clauses is a confidentiality agreement. You discover, through accident that your company is dumping toxic material into a river, material which is banned, and which is causing fish to die and birds to mutate.
Do you live with your confidentiality agreement and let your employer pollute in such a way or do you become a whistle blower?
Do you live with the letter of your agreement or the spirit of your agreement.
Even if it isn't spelled out, there is a presumption that a contract is unenforceable if it coerces you into doing something illegal.
Reporting toxic waste doesn't put thousands of lives at risk but more significant to the issue is that reporting a polluter is not a crime. Divulging classified information is. There is a big, big, big, BIG difference between reporting illegal activities to the proper authority, and giving away classified information that may compromise the security of a nation. Treason deserves the death penalty. Period.

Last edited by Parallax; 12-19-2011 at 01:40 PM.
12-19-2011, 01:15 AM   #25
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It is hard to see it working any other way than things getting extremely harsh for someone leaking classified information while serving in the military. Still, it would be fair and proper to investigate, try and punish, in that strict order. In a high profile case like this one would expect the powers that be to be very careful with that, especially when there should be little doubt of a conviction on a perfectly legitimate basis.
12-19-2011, 03:02 AM   #26
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Manning must have had some inkling that what he was doing was very serious, and serious punishment would be the result if he was caught.

But he has exposed the moral failings of the military, and it does not sit right with me that he will be punished for blowing the whistle. Manning may have leaked information which may have put people in danger, but he revealed the military were involved in attacks on civilians - including children. Which is worse? Would it be better if we were unaware of what the military had been doing or is it ultimately best these things are brought into the open so we can make corrections to how the military operate? If he had reported these things via the 'proper channels', would these things ever have come to light? OF COURSE NOT!

Ultimately Manning has put his life on the line to expose the wrong doings of the military. Now he has to face the consequences.

To my mind, this puts him up there with the bravest of our soldiers.
12-19-2011, 03:08 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by jolepp Quote
It is hard to see it working any other way than things getting extremely harsh for someone leaking classified information while serving in the military. Still, it would be fair and proper to investigate, try and punish, in that strict order. In a high profile case like this one would expect the powers that be to be very careful with that, especially when there should be little doubt of a conviction on a perfectly legitimate basis.
The crime was investigated, Manning was identified as a prime suspect, ample evidence confirmed that he was the culprit, now he is going on trial and after that he will be sentenced to hard labor at Leavenworth if found guilty. Notwithstanding the usual "conspiracy theory" rumors from the usual cast of anarchists, he is being treated appropriately for a traitor... but I suppose his supporters think he should have been given a parade and lauded as a hero. Of course, I believe I read somewhere that Benedict Arnold was considered a hero in Canada too.

Mike
12-19-2011, 03:16 AM   #28
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'Are we the baddies'?

12-19-2011, 03:21 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
Notwithstanding the usual "conspiracy theory" rumors from the usual cast of anarchists, he is being treated appropriately for a traitor... but I suppose his supporters think he should have been given a parade and lauded as a hero.
Conspiracy theories? There is no conspiracy theory, he has exposed wrongdoing pure and simple, and it would take the blinkered attitude of the SS Soldier in the above clip not to realise that the US military is responsible for some pretty nasty shit, and the American people deserve to know about it. Usual cast of anarchists? You don't have to be an anarchist to watch the video footage he released to understand what was happening was very, very wrong.

Bradley Manning:

QuoteQuote:
02:23:25 PM, Manning: i could’ve sold to russia or china, and made bank?

02:23:36 PM, Lamo: why didn’t you?

02:23:58 PM, Manning: because it’s public data ...

02:24:46 PM, Manning: it belongs in the public domain .
QuoteQuote:
i want people to see the truth… regardless of who they are ... because without information, you cannot make informed decisions as a public.
QuoteQuote:
... its important that it gets out ... i feel, for some bizarre reason it might actually change something. I just ... dont wish to be a part of it ... at least not now ... im not ready ... i wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed.

Last edited by ihasa; 12-19-2011 at 03:30 AM.
12-19-2011, 03:53 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
The crime was investigated, Manning was identified as a prime suspect, ample evidence confirmed that he was the culprit, now he is going on trial and after that he will be sentenced to hard labor at Leavenworth if found guilty. Notwithstanding the usual "conspiracy theory" rumors from the usual cast of anarchists, he is being treated appropriately for a traitor... but I suppose his supporters think he should have been given a parade and lauded as a hero. Of course, I believe I read somewhere that Benedict Arnold was considered a hero in Canada too.

Mike
The point was that it is plain "stupid" to treat a high profile case like this in a way that leaves cause to doubt whether the 'punish' part was being carried out before the 'try' part and/or the treatment of the suspect in general was proper and fair. As for cause to doubt:

BBC News - Wikileaks row: US spokesman Crowley quits over gaffe

BBC News - UN unmonitored Bradley Manning visits 'blocked'
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