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12-19-2011, 04:14 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Conspiracy theories? There is no conspiracy theory, he has exposed wrongdoing pure and simple, and it would take the blinkered attitude of the SS Soldier in the above clip not to realise that the US military is responsible for some pretty nasty shit, and the American people deserve to know about it. Usual cast of anarchists? You don't have to be an anarchist to watch the video footage he released to understand what was happening was very, very wrong.

Bradley Manning:
I was referring to allegations that he is being mistreated or possibly tortured... probably being waterboarded by Dick Cheney himself... just because he has been held in isolation and has had limited contact with anyone other than his lawyers. I realize he released some damning stuff, but he also released stuff which put Americans involved in legitimate activities in harms way with avowed enemies of this country.

Frankly, had he sent the materials to his congress critter, I could understand what he did. I still wouldn't condone it, but I could at least understand it. Instead he sent it to a self-appointed anarchist who published it with no regard for the safety of the people identified.

Would you be alright with it if someone posted the names and addresses of the Seals who took Bin Laden out? After all, doesn't much of the world consider that an illegal act?

12-19-2011, 04:16 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by jolepp Quote
The point was that it is plain "stupid" to treat a high profile case like this in a way that leaves cause to doubt whether the 'punish' part was being carried out before the 'try' part and/or the treatment of the suspect in general was proper and fair. As for cause to doubt:

BBC News - Wikileaks row: US spokesman Crowley quits over gaffe

BBC News - UN unmonitored Bradley Manning visits 'blocked'
Sorry... I was just pointing out that things are being handled properly.
12-19-2011, 03:44 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Reporting toxic waste doesn't put thousands of lives at risk but more significant to the issue is that reporting a polluter is not a crime. Divulging classified information is. There is a big, big, big, BIG difference between reporting illegal activities to the proper authority, and giving away classified information that may compromise the security of a nation. Treason deserves the death penalty. Period.
So you would be prepared to forgive a breach of contract when it suits you, but not prepared to forgive a breach when it doesn't suit you.
You've come a long way in the past couple of years Jim, but we still have a way to go.

Considering the tenor of what was leaked, perhaps your nation deserves a little insecurity. It is certainly something the USA has been exporting whenever possible.
12-19-2011, 04:34 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
So you would be prepared to forgive a breach of contract when it suits you, but not prepared to forgive a breach when it doesn't suit you.
Where did I say that? I was pointing out that your argument was flawed as one of the acts was not only a breach of contract, but a serious crime as well.

12-19-2011, 05:41 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
So you would be prepared to forgive a breach of contract when it suits you, but not prepared to forgive a breach when it doesn't suit you.
You've come a long way in the past couple of years Jim, but we still have a way to go.

Considering the tenor of what was leaked, perhaps your nation deserves a little insecurity. It is certainly something the USA has been exporting whenever possible.
Bill... a civilian employee's "breach of contract" with a civilian employer is a civil matter... A "breach of contract" when you are employed by the federal government is a felony. There is a big big difference.

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12-20-2011, 03:39 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Where did I say that? I was pointing out that your argument was flawed as one of the acts was not only a breach of contract, but a serious crime as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
Bill... a civilian employee's "breach of contract" with a civilian employer is a civil matter... A "breach of contract" when you are employed by the federal government is a felony. There is a big big difference.
Really, all you two are saying is that the cudgel used to punish the transgressor is different, you are still forgiving the same "crime" in one instance but not the other.
What is interesting is that you expect an American citizen to turn off his conscience when he sees wrongdoing within his own government, but you call foreigners who do the same thing war criminals or people who commit crimes against humanity.

You very happily will shoot the messenger in this instance while shrugging off the message as being of no consequence. What you should be enraged by is your government playing an ongoing game of dirty tricks and wrongdoings that have caused unconscionable harm throughout the world. What you should be enraged by is that the actions of your government have caused American citizens to be imperiled outside of their own country.
Secrets have a way of being found out. If it wasn't Wikileaks and Manning, it would have been something else eventually. What you should be doing is working to right the wrongs that your country has been doing over the past several decades, not going after the whistle blower that brought these crimes to light.
Someone mentioned earlier that Manning should have gone to Congress with what he knew. Is anyone here really gullible enough to think that if he had, he wouldn't have just had a fatal accident and what he knew would have been buried? You don't trust your government enough to do the right thing in most respects, why would you even begin to trust it in this respect.

I agree that under your laws, what he did would be considered treason, and I suspect that Mr. Manning had no illusions that if he was caught he would be killed by his government.
The true test of a hero is when he takes on an action of righteousness, even knowing it may well kill him.
Manning is a hero.
12-20-2011, 03:54 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Really, all you two are saying is that the cudgel used to punish the transgressor is different, you are still forgiving the same "crime" in one instance but not the other.
No, in one of those instances there is no crime; however, I understand what you mean and yes, there certainly should be different consequences for different wrongful acts, whether they be civil, criminal, or both.
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Secrets have a way of being found out. If it wasn't Wikileaks and Manning, it would have been something else eventually.
As a mortal, everyone's life is going to end some day. Does that make a valid defense to murder?
I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, with the exception of the "Manning is a hero part". One man's hero is another man's low-life scumbag.
12-20-2011, 04:56 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
No, in one of those instances there is no crime; however, I understand what you mean and yes, there certainly should be different consequences for different wrongful acts, whether they be civil, criminal, or both. As a mortal, everyone's life is going to end some day. Does that make a valid defense to murder?
I won't answer to your second sentence sine it is a deflection that has no bearing on the topic. As far as your first sentence goes, you are standing on a technicality to ignore the point.
QuoteQuote:
I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, with the exception of the "Manning is a hero part". One man's hero is another man's low-life scumbag.
But you still believe that your country has the right to do whatever it wants to whomever it wants to do it to. This is why you are so intent on ignoring what Manning leaked, and so intent on the criminality of his actions rather than the criminality of your own government.
As I said earlier Jim we still have some work to do, but don't worry, I'll stay the course with you until you see the light.

12-20-2011, 05:38 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote

But you still believe that your country has the right to do whatever it wants to whomever it wants to do it to.
No Bill, I don't. This country has done things it shouldn't have. Actions ranging from ill advised to despicable and deplorable. That doesn't in my mind, mitigate, let alone excuse treason.
12-21-2011, 04:25 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I won't answer to your second sentence sine it is a deflection that has no bearing on the topic. As far as your first sentence goes, you are standing on a technicality to ignore the point.

But you still believe that your country has the right to do whatever it wants to whomever it wants to do it to. This is why you are so intent on ignoring what Manning leaked, and so intent on the criminality of his actions rather than the criminality of your own government.
As I said earlier Jim we still have some work to do, but don't worry, I'll stay the course with you until you see the light.
Bill, somehow I don't think there is any danger of Jim joining your crusade. I assume you've given up on me.

As he and I have both stated on several occasions, our country has done some terrible and horrendous things from time to time and to my way of thinking, the political leaders who were in charge at the time should be personally accountable for that. Neither of us has said our country should be able to do whatever the heck it wants.

Frankly, in this case, our justice system is working exactly as it is supposed to. A person who signed an oath which basically waives his rights to freedom or even existence if he violates it, willfully gave away government secrets. The contents of the material he leaked is irrelevant. All that's germane is that he violated his oath! That is what he will be tired for and if found guilty, punished for.

I also do not understand how you see no difference between say an Apple employee leaking plans for the iPhone 5 and, for example, a soldier leaking classified government plans for dealing with a crisis in western Pakistan. One is a civil matter and the leaker will face few if any criminal charges though he will certainly be sued and face financial losses. The other has committed actual crimes on several levels and is subject to criminal sanctions from fines to imprisonment to execution.

Mike
12-21-2011, 06:17 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
Bill, somehow I don't think there is any danger of Jim joining your crusade. I assume you've given up on me.


Mike
Remember that pig dressed in a sequined tux I mentioned in the other thread? There's a better chance that it will actually learn to play the piano than there is that I'll change my stance on this.

Last edited by Parallax; 12-21-2011 at 10:28 AM.
12-21-2011, 10:26 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote

I also do not understand how you see no difference between say an Apple employee leaking plans for the iPhone 5 and, for example, a soldier leaking classified government plans for dealing with a crisis in western Pakistan. One is a civil matter and the leaker will face few if any criminal charges though he will certainly be sued and face financial losses. The other has committed actual crimes on several levels and is subject to criminal sanctions from fines to imprisonment to execution.

Mike
Like I said earlier, the size of the cudgel is different, but the bottom line in both instances would be that the person reneged on a contract.
It's not really much of a surprise that the government has a bigger stick than a private company, after all, the government makes the rules to suit itself
As for your example of dealing with a crisis in Pakistan (keeping in mind we are referencing Wikileaks in our metaphors), the documents leaked would have spelled out how the USA laid plans to ensure that there was a crisis in Pakistan to give it a reason to go in, kick some Muslim ass and quell the crisis.
This sort of duplicity deserves to be leaked, irregardless of whether the person signed an oath or not.

Sitting back and saying yeah, we do really bad things, and then not holding anyone accountable for it is akin to tacit approval.
"Oops, our bad, we went to war based on a lie, glad it was only a few thousand of our boys and girls who died. Too bad about the half million ragheads" isn't being accountable, it's adding insult to injury to the country you trashed.
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