[Jodokast96]

Rat, could you be any more full you shit, and yourself? You are so blinded by your hate, you can't even take the time to read any of what I'm saying. Instead you ignore all of it, and jump right into your bashings and your prejudices. No, this was not a good law. Most likely not before the changes, and certainly not after. The fact that they had to get that last part in there tells you right away something was wrong with it, and it wasn't to cater to homophobes. These laws tend to be near impossible to enforce, overstep the reaches of schools in far too many cases, and tend to overly restrictive on the very same rights you rail on about "not being allowed to have". Half the shit your bitching about is already covered under anti-discrimination and hate crime laws anyway. Get out of whatever decade it was you got your ass pummeled and join the rest of us here in 2011. Then go back, read what I actually had to say, and not what the voices or meds told you I did.

[Wheatfield]

Dramatize much guys? So passing bad laws for the sake of doing something is ok with you guys?

The freedom to say "I don't approve of Queers" is one thing, the freedom to say "I don't approve of Queers and they should all be taken out and dragged behind trucks until they are dead" is something else entirely, and it doesn't matter if your religion says it's so or not.
One is expressing an opinion, the other is inciting hatred and violence.
OTOH, in some circles, religious expression is "All Westerners but especially Americans should be killed because they are Infidels against Allah", so the Republicans have opened that door as well, whether they like it or not.
Good laws say you can't do this or that.
Bad laws say you can't do this or that unless you are one of these.

[redrockcoulee]

Dramatize much guys? So passing bad laws for the sake of doing something is ok with you guys?

Is not the complaint about the part of the bill that makes it a bad law. Not sure why you think bullying should not be outlawed just because it will not be 100% effective. Kids would not be allowed to physically assault others but psychological or emotional assaults are fine? Or why if bullying is banned it should be allowed for religious purposes.

There are too much stats and anecdotes showing that bullying can have extreme consequences and unless one believes the state has no right protecting citizens from one another why should bullying not be banned?

[Ratmagiclady]

Rat, could you be any more full you shit, and yourself? You are so blinded by your hate, you can't even take the time to read any of what I'm saying. Instead you ignore all of it, and jump right into your bashings and your prejudices. No, this was not a good law. Most likely not before the changes, and certainly not after. The fact that they had to get that last part in there tells you right away something was wrong with it, and it wasn't to cater to homophobes. These laws tend to be near impossible to enforce, overstep the reaches of schools in far too many cases, and tend to overly restrictive on the very same rights you rail on about "not being allowed to have". Half the shit your bitching about is already covered under anti-discrimination and hate crime laws anyway. Get out of whatever decade it was you got your ass pummeled and join the rest of us here in 2011. Then go back, read what I actually had to say, and not what the voices or meds told you I did.

The problem is that this *is* 2011, and children *are* being bashed. For real. As in non-metaphorically, all too often. It's not 'prejudice' to call out the Right on what they're *actually doing,* which is trying to use a combination of church and state to *sanctify* that bigotry and bashing. Obviously, some of those bullies grow up into *adult* ones, and that includes right-wing politicians and pundits.

And the Religious Right, when they're not trying to dismantle public schools entirely, are trying to *make* them places they can indoctrinate with anything but *real learning* and the *human respect and civic responsibility* that school is *supposed* to be about. They wonder why the schools perform so poorly, considering this is supposed to be the wealthiest nation in the world, maybe it's cause some have got one percentage of the population busy attacking and suppressing the other, and the rest just trying not to get *treated* as one of the outcasts.

What they're afraid of is that unlike when *I* was a kid, they aren't able to count on such *pervasive* prejudice and silence.... only problem is, they're clearly stepping up the *intensity* of that hatred. Yeah, there's more and more violence. and you've got Christianists trying to prevent anyone even standing up to it with such as the Day of Silence or any shows of student or faculty support, ... then turning around and saying it's OK to hound kids to suicide as long as people use their *religion* to do it. (Why on the one hand they claim people can be talked out of their *sexuality* and don't suffer ill effects from harassment and physical attacks, I dunno.)


You can make as many personal attacks on *me* as you like, but that's kind of the *point.* Subjecting people to these climates of abuse *does do damage,* and not just to people like me. It takes something away from the perpetrators and those who end up the helpless-feeling bystanders. For what, some sense of ignorant self-righteousness? For *bullies?* People who seek to use ...presumably your, religion to seek power over others by... Harassing *children* and teaching other children to do the same?

They wonder why people are turned-off by that kind of religion in greater numbers... Actually, doubling down on the greed, hypocrisy, and hatred of minorities, while claiming to be 'the real victims here' if your denials don't wash. just isnt' going to help. Just detaches you more and more from *reality.*


And that affects more than just LGBT people... For instance, people playing that religious-bigotry and homophobia card in politics are the ones that created this economic crisis, and then prevented a minority President from *being able to do much to fix it... * in large measure by 'accusing' him of being other minorities they denigrate, as well as being too 'soft on queers' or whatever. The Right's stepping up the hate cause they've got nothing *real* that isn't just *more* destructive. And they know this latest bigotry has numbered days, just demographically... Why they choose to try to use those days doing as much harm as possible to as many of our lives for as long as possible... I just don't know. But it *does* make a lot of folks like me pretty *angry,* cause those aren't years that I'm gonna get back, and part of what's gotten me through them is knowing that the days of *that* are numbered.


Doing more bullying here doesn't mean there's some other matter of principle involved: the fact is that your ideology opposes *anything* that's benign toward LGBT people. Even if it takes total hypocrisy about your own supposed ideals to do so. That's not 'imaginary' ....that's pretty much a matter of public record.

What you 'had to say' was just denialism... Claiming that bullying laws themselves 'don't work' doesn't mean this law isn't giving some people a special right to bully others in the name of, really, the only forms of religion that even *want* to. Being pro-bullying in general doesn't mean it doesn't happen or is 'all in the crazy LGBT peoples' heads' or any of the other claims you made to blame the victims.

Like I said, it's not just actual LGBT kids that suffer cause of this: claim it's a 'moral position about sin' all you want, that doesn't even mean the bullies even *give a crap* if their targets have *done* those 'sins' or even are actually gay.. They'll threaten anyone who doesn't conform to whatever with being treated *as* they treat gay people... Have younger and younger teens falling all over themselves to 'prove' straightness by ...doing straight sexual things at younger and younger ages, (which the Religious Right also wants to keep them in ignorance about) And also by 'don't act too smart, creative, sensitive, tough, anything outside like the 'gossip and makeup and triviality' set, or for the boys, 'Keep everyone but dumb jocks and wannabes in their place,' ......and the religious angle makes it worse, cause the bullies know that if the churches, religious faculty, and clergy will *also* pile onto the victims, they get to feel that much more 'powerful, (Even if they whine that 'I'm the real victim here, they fought back!') especially if one's own family is taught not to back their own kids over this.

That's actually why the single biggest determinant of how well LGBT people fare in life is whether or not they have supportive or hostile family. (Or, failing that, *anyone*) People *can* be pretty tough, ...tougher than probably came natural to me, certainly, but what really drives too may kids to suicide or other bad outcomes always *was* the sense you're that alone in a hostile world. Which is exactly why the Religious Right, and the Church, I think, wants to make sure LGBT kids are as isolated as possible. That's why they want to silence anything *but* their demands that we're sub-human, 'evil,' 'objectively-disordered,' (ie, crazy/not to be believed if we say anything about, oh, I dunno... Abuse of ourselves and others? Gotta love how some use the very fact that people are distressed by their treatment as disqualification from having a word to say about it even happening. That's the same M.O. of bullies and adult abusers, right there. That's why those abusive clergy spew homophobia and then *use* it to target somewhat more boys than girls: easier to use that very stigma to silence the former: the fourty percent of the victims that are girls, well, they have to make sure you're 'cut from the herd' otherwise: it's a little harder to make the case you're a sl-- or crazy or whatever when parents and families are less inclined to believe that. My experience was they waited till I was actually a runaway, fortunately I had a few more cards in my deck than someone counted on, so I escaped *that* set of extra bad memories, but that's about the only good my academic record ever did me in life, )

I don't think I'll convince *you* of any of this, but there really are a lot of people out there who would *rather* believe this isn't a problem, partly cause the doublethink and denial they may have had some small complicity in *isn't* a very attractive piece of self-examination to do. No one wants to admit *they* were too scared or intimidated or self-absorbed to do the right thing.

But the right thing really is a bit more than for the masses to comply with the abusive mentalities cloaked in these stupid victim-blaming 'Well, it's religious freedom to do this to people, You're on your own, kids,' ...'toughen up and learn to fight' may be satisfying, even a little inspiring, but I know too well it just isn't enough. Not for everyone. I got a list of casualties in the back of my mind that says so, and that's probably the *really* distressing part.

Also that I almost made it anyway. (I often used to joke about my chronic health issues 'Thanks to my mutant powers, I'm not going to sue,' but I wouldn't have burned out those turbo adrenal glands before I passed 25 if they hadn't gotten stuck in the near-on position by that one-more-go-round.I ended up homeless or near-to so and walking around trying to help people... Pretty dangerously, just cause it was better to 'play Batgirl' than sit around shaking.

Cause, yeah. You really can get your arse kicked. To be quite honest, it did happen to me a *lot* as a child, largely *because* of the very bigotry and denial and victim-blaming you did here... And that included being a punching bag for those 'traditional values' that somehow forgot about the 'chivalry' part. Cause it was better than getting that as well as more from the school and then from the folks, and then sent to the priests. Until I *did* finally open a can. (It did escalate matters beyond the schoolyard, but was pretty glorious, too, considering what I was up against, If I do say so. (And, yeah, the armed bullies cried like babies in front of the cops, too. Hail Blackwing. )


It sure doesn't mean getting your arse kicked or having church and state try flipping the narrative about it, (maybe cry 'I'm the real victim here' when you *lose* like bullies do, ) ..... would 'put a junior high d*** in her place,' is *good* for anyone. That's the *point.* This is not 'strength' or morality' you're selling. You're wanting to use church and state to harass and brutalize *children.* Then of course stick a cross on it.

Get the point? Yet? Sport?


Cause I'm suspecting that there's some possibility that kids shouldn't be spending their school days developing the thought, 'Well, at least while they're after me, they aren't hurting anyone *else.* ' Cause, yeah, I've often been the lightning rod. There's no really *good* way to do that: it *costs.* But I do seem to have a talent for it. Practice, you know. If any good's to come of all that, though, it *has* to be about the masses of people standing up, joining hands, and saying *no.* Cause bullies really are a self-righteous bunch of cowards. They live lives based on 'blame' and what they can thereby 'get away with.'


One of the upsides of being a 'freak' is, while you were 'kicking my arse' ...I was profiling you. I know both what you want, who subverted your better natures toward oppression, and why you won't get it that way.

One of their favorite turns of phrase was 'I'll knock you into next week.' And, yeah. It's 2011.

Welcome to next week.

I've been waiting.

---

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 11-07-2011 at 12:25 PM.

[Jodokast96]

Anytime you decide to step down from the pulpit and actually comment on any point I made, I'll be here waiting.

[Ratmagiclady]

Anytime you decide to step down from the pulpit and actually comment on any point I made, I'll be here waiting.

Perhaps I'm as disqualified and unreasonable as you say...

You had a point?

Present it, please. Especially as regards this legislation, but, speak it. Pretend I'm both as dumb *and* fanciful as you insist. Spell it out. Now.

Speak it. Cause if I'm somehow being too hard on those fine virtuous Christians who put me in the *hospital* for three times (That's just on head injuries) before I even *had* sex, (Or a date, or my first kiss) I'd like to know if I'm being unjust here. Toward you and your God of kindness, repentance, and compassion or anything.


Speak it.


Cause, hey, if you're right here, I'm all kinds of damnated for not accepting my place and fighting back, (Against your bullying) just as you claim bullying should promote. Or shall we degenerate to fisticuffs? Cause that's actually pretty tedious, especially if you claim this has to do with some kind of outstanding spirituality. Seriously, this is stupid. You want bulling rules, like it proves something, you're telegraphing how you could bash me in *text.* And if you want to say I'll bash *you?*


No.



But I'll have you know that if I'm still here, it's not cause someone like you never tried to make it otherwise.


Shall we talk about faith, son? You may be surprised to find out it's bigger than you or me. Also more patient.


(Also, my religion doesn't *have* pulpits, which means that if you want to make a point, or bully anyone, such as you claim, you must do it in person. At ground level. Me first. How bout you, big guy? Would you like to prove something? )


So, speak it.

[magkelly]

Ever walked through a school hall every single day terrified of being mocked, sexually harassed, literally kicked in the butt? Ever had your chair ripped out from under you? Ever been attacked behind the bleachers, literally mauled by a gang of kids? Ever had your books and notes stolen right before midterms, your locker opened your clothes ripped to shreds. Ever had someone try to take pictures of you naked in the shower at gym just so they could post them all over school? Ever been picked up and shoved into a locker or had your library books thrown into a dirty toilet? Ever had foul mouthed phones calls coming at you to the tunes of dozens a day? Ever had your best friend of 5 plus years dump you flat so that (in her mind) she could avoid harassment and finally be one of the popular kids?

Ever had some guy put his hand up your genitals when you stood in the middle of a class to go to the blackboard or shove you up against a wall when no one was looking and cop a hard squeeze up top before dropping you flat on your arse and laughing as he and his buddies moved down the hall with nary a teacher in sight? Yeah, all that and more I can't even bear write about happened to me regularly from the time I was first in junior high through my senior year of high school. They did just about everything but dump cow's blood over me. Then again they probably would have done that too had I not been too terrified to attend my own prom.

I was a bullied kid. I was a sexually harassed kid, and though my folks tried to do something about it no one really cared. All I ever heard from the people who were supposed to protect me was "Suck it up, kid. It's only high school. It'll be over before you know it." Well, okay. Technically I suppose it is "over" but in some ways I don't think it will ever quite be over for me. In my head, I'm an adult now, I can deal, but because of these people I actually have a mild case of PTSD and living back here it can be awful at times.

After senior year I went into therapy. It was either that or cut my wrists. It was that bad and what really gets me is that the people who did it all, they still don't get what they did, even now. My former best friend, the girl who was like my sister for nearly six years before she dumped me to go try to become a cheer leader, she came up to me and tried to hug me a few years ago. Needless to say she didn't get the chance. Ditto half the girls who used to bully me. For some strange reason they think we were best buds in high school now and they act like it too. It's just, ugh...

The ringleader of the gang of guys who sexually harassed me? He got all ticked off with me a few years after all that because I walked away from him rather than help him out at the store I worked at. He came after me told me to "Get over it. It was only school pranks!" This was the same guy who uphanded me in class and who also shoved me up against a wall to squeeze my boob and then nearly broke my tailbone when he dropped me on a hard concrete floor. He didn't care that he sexually harassed me back then, all he cared about was getting what he came into my store for. Me, I couldn't even look at him without feeling violated and even a bit terrified and yeah, it was noticeable. I was still in therapy then. I deal with it a bit better now. Now I see him I just ignore him like the pr- he is, but back then it was still too raw, too close in time. One moment with this guy I was white and shaking like a leaf, and yet he didn't even for a moment think about that or wonder why? No I didn't want to wait on him. I couldn't even stand to be in the same room with him for more than 3 seconds.

20 years later my skin still crawls a bit at the sight of him. But I can't absolutely avoid him. We still live in the same town. I see this guy and his cronies more far often than I'd like to. He used to bowl with my Dad's league. he's a bigwig in town. His family is prominent, has money. He's always around. Looking at him, even years later, it can literally make me sick to my stomach and that's despite the several years of counseling. Even now, I would never allow him to be anywhere near me alone. I can defend myself now, but even so, that guy, he gets nowhere near me, ever.

Laws like this one aren't perfect but I am very glad they are trying to make them. I shudder at the very idea of any kid going through what I did, or worse. With the advent of the internet school bullying has gone from being a bad thing to being a potentially lethal thing. Kids are dying because of it and I am extremely glad that someone cares enough to try. If someone had cared for me back then? It might have made a real difference for me and I don't forget that.

Many schools now have programs where those who have been bullied or who have in the past can come in and talk to kids about the experience. I went in last year to my old schools and I did that one on one talk. One of the teachers he was actually one of the kids who used to bully me. After my talk he came up and admitted as much and apologized to me. He was only the second person to do that but it meant the world to me that he did. I sat there and literally cried, and finally so did he and I think the kids they got a real lesson that day in just how much damage bullying can really do, about what effect it can have on people, even years later.

Yeah, you have to live in the now, and for your own sake you have to learn to forgive as much as you can and let as much as you can go. But that doesn't mean the effects of that kind of abuse just magically go away because you become an adult. Being bullied it can leave some really really deep scars and even when you think you're all adult and over it, often you are not, will probably never be.

It's a sad fact that many kids, far too many, like me, they don't make it. Wherefore but for the grace of the universe go I. I could have been one of those kids who died because of bullying. I nearly was. No, this law isn't a good one. It's poorly written and doesn't even come close to doing the job, but it's definitely a sight better than us doing nothing, letting kids suffer the tortures of the damned all in the name of "free speech."

[Ratmagiclady]

Ever walked through a school hall every single day terrified of being mocked, sexually harassed, literally kicked in the butt? Ever had your chair ripped out from under you? Ever been attacked behind the bleachers, literally mauled by a gang of kids? Ever had your books and notes stolen right before midterms, your locker opened your clothes ripped to shreds. Ever had someone try to take pictures of you naked in the shower at gym just so they could post them all over school?

Thanks for speaking, Mags. There's no measure of how sorry I am that none of my efforts where I was did the trick. Very 'dramatic' though how I first fuound my way into a darkroom, though, you know. At the time it was just one of the many boltholes I'd found while needing boltholes in what some call 'Junior High school.'



One day, there was another gal in there, making prints. I still remember the smell. On one occasion, possibly not the same one, I kicked in the vent in the bottom side of the door and crawled in there. I was supposed to be in class, but so were the thugs.


My second meaningful time in a darkroom, though. I learned a few things while I was hiding. Know what I'm saying? Actually, I hid there a lot, cause I'd learned my way around a darkroom previously, more than just hiding under the sink.

[magkelly]

Yup. I get you. My first camera was therapy for me too, not just for mental therapy but as a PT thing. It does help being able to have a creative outlet though. I spend 90% of my life these days taking care of other people. I have to keep my mouth shut, do what needs to be done, ignore the bad stuff, even when it practically chokes me. But put a camera in my hands, let me get away for an hour of snaps, and I'm actually happy. There is something very satisfying about being able to see the world through a lens.

Here's an odd one for you. Talk about serendipity? One of the "mean girls" got my email through someone I just did a portfolio for. She liked my shots for them and just asked me to do her oldest kid's portfolio. She sent me her Facebook page info et all. She hasn't seen me yet, only has an email and my nick, Mag, which wasn't the same back then. (Not in school. I've only ever been Mag to my adult friends.) She has absolutely no idea that I am the same person that she nearly gave a concussion to in high school.

No offense to the kid, but I don't think I'll take the job. It may be unprofessional of me but I don't care. I think it's my prerogative not to deal with anyone I can't stomach looking at. :P I'm sure she'll ask why, but all she's getting is a polite, businesslike email from me declining. That's it. She's about the 4th person from that crew that I've run into in the past year or so. I cannot believe so many of them still live here!!!!

[Ratmagiclady]

Yup. I get you. My first camera was therapy for me too, not just for mental therapy but as a PT thing. It does help being able to have a creative outlet though. I spend 90% of my life these days taking care of other people. I have to keep my mouth shut, do w

Actually, that's good, but that experience had nothing to do with my first camera, nor therapy. Or much. I'd been drawing pursuit off some etinic immigrant friends and happpened to be covered for by some older gal.


I do *not* keep my mouth shut, you know. That saved me from more than I knew.

hat needs to be done, ignore the bad stuff, even when it practically chokes me. But put a camera in my hands, let me get away for an hour of snaps, and I'm actually happy. There is something very satisfying about being able to see the world through a lens.

Here's an odd one for you. Talk about serendipity? One of the "mean girls" got my email through someone I just did a portfolio for. She liked my shots for them and just asked me to do her oldest kid's portfolio. She sent me her Facebook page info et all. She hasn't seen me yet, only has an email and my nick, Mag, which wasn't the same back then. (Not in school. I've only ever been Mag to my adult friends.) She has absolutely no idea that I am the same person that she nearly gave a concussion to in high school.

No offense to the kid, but I don't think I'll take the job. It may be unprofessional of me but I don't care. I think it's my prerogative not to deal with anyone I can't stomach looking at. :P I'm sure she'll ask why, but all she's getting is a polite, businesslike email from me declining. That's it. She's about the 4th person from that crew that I've run into in the past year or so. I cannot believe so many of them still live here!!!!

Well, I guess they're coming back or something. To be very honest, I never learned or retained most of the names of most of the 'mean girls' Forget them. I remember the names of those that did me kindness, though. (The older girl in the darkroom that day, and days after, well, if I'd known I could have told. And no, Christians, we didn't have sex, we made photos. And since I was hiding, me not-knowing who was covering for me made sense. Cause, frankly, I was getting tuned up with too much regularity by the school administration, and what I didn't know, I couldn't tell. So there. (Can any martyred teabaggers realize this was my *sixth grade?* )

One day, RML would have a darkroom of her own... But that is another story.

[redrockcoulee]

Mag

A great and courageous post. To have to live through that and on top of that to some it was your fault somehow.

No it is not unprofessional to not to work with a person that you would feel uncomfortable working with due to personal experiences, it is also unlikely that you would do your best work and therefore may also feel guilty about that and from your post it is not you that should feel guilt.

[boriscleto]

The Michigan Teahaddists at it again.

GOP Bill Would Make Pledge of Allegiance Mandatory for Michigan Students | Video Cafe

[Jodokast96]

Two things about that.

First, I'm not getting the whole point of it. They want a bill requiring it, yet allows the parents to opt out. Ok, no problem. Except how is that different than what happens now? So yet another bad law that really does nothing.

Second is this quote:
"Many children in our public schools are not even citizens of this country," she added.

I have no problem with not forcing citizens of another country to take the pledge. But just what is the status of these kids, of which there are apparently "many"? Honestly, what's the percentage that are citizens of another country, and here legally (and presumably trying to gain citizenship anyway)? 1/2%? Less? That doesn't sound like many, so yet again here we are worrying about new laws when we can't even enforce the ones we have.

[Ratmagiclady]

Two things about that.

First, I'm not getting the whole point of it. They want a bill requiring it, yet allows the parents to opt out. Ok, no problem. Except how is that different than what happens now? So yet another bad law that really does nothing.

Well, they're on another big 'under God'/attacking separation of church and state kick: apart from the obvious political theatre about it, they're making the default a 'You have to do this unless a parent opts you out,' thus.... Doing more to single out people who for instance don't agree with the altered pledge, etc.... not to mention taking the choice out of the hands of the kids. If that goes hand in hand with this thing about allowing teachers to religiously-bully, see know they could use that? It's about shifting where the authority is, a bit, particularly as regards the religion-as-loyalty-test aspect.

Second is this quote:
"Many children in our public schools are not even citizens of this country," she added.

I have no problem with not forcing citizens of another country to take the pledge. But just what is the status of these kids, of which there are apparently "many"? Honestly, what's the percentage that are citizens of another country, and here legally (and presumably trying to gain citizenship anyway)? 1/2%? Less? That doesn't sound like many, so yet again here we are worrying about new laws when we can't even enforce the ones we have.

There are a lot of statuses that aren't 'immigrant,' you know... Exchange students, refugees, children of visiting faculty, of executives in international corporations, anyone from another country with kids, really. Even if it's a small 'percentage' , that's still a lot of people (yes, many) this law is asking, by default, to essentially make oaths they shouldn't... Or, again, be singled out.

[redrockcoulee]

Hockey players and comedians as well, some of them have kids