Why is bipartisanship always worse than partisan bickering

mikemike · 12-09-2011, 07:34 AM

So apparently congress just passed a bill with a huge bipartisan majority allowing for the indefinite detention of US citizens who are accused of terrorism. No trial. No miranda rights. No lawyer.

Is it just me or are the biggest turds of legislation that come out of Washington like this, the Patriot Act, and TARP come with huge bipartisan support? The only places of mutual agreement are the worst ideas.

And of course the only place that really decided this was news was a fake news show...
Jon Stewart Blasts Senate Defense Bill That Would Allow Americans To Be Detained Indefinitely (VIDEO)

Its a sad day in america.

pxpaulx · 12-09-2011, 07:42 AM

It is crazy stuff like this and healthcare that makes me seriously consider packing up and moving back to Canada. I married an American and we chose to move here at the time 11 years ago basically because it was a cheaper process (being college students we didn't have much money of course). It certainly wasn't a decision based on any sort of patriotism on either side. When Sept 11th happened, the solidarity of the American people was overwhelming, and for the first time I felt we made the right decision. I became a citizen in 2006. 5 years later with the direction the country has been headed I feel nothing but sadness at the state of this once and potentially again great country.

It feels like Obama was quickly shackled and broken, and that things have only gotten worse. I am disheartened to say the least.

séamuis · 12-09-2011, 07:50 AM

A sad day is probably the biggest understatement in this nations history. if this doesn't at some point get repealed for the completely unconstitutional piece of trash the it is, I have made up my mind to leave the country and never come back. this goes against just about everything this country is supposed to stand for, and I will NOT raise a family in a nation that feels that such a law is not only justified but a good thing. its beyond scary. anyone who still wants to disagree that this countries government doesn't care about the constitution, and wants this nation to become a police state? the evidence is all around us... when are we going to wake up? will it take violent rioting in the streets like egypt to restore our nation? I'm scared. I give credit to John stewart for being just about the only tv personality to bring this to attention. it shows, in my eyes that this nation doesn't give a damn about their constitutionally granted freedoms, and thats more scary than the government that doesn't give a damn.

this is bad, really bad and it will only open the floodgates for the complete stripping of all of our personal freedoms. we may as well burn the constitution now and save the trouble of the government tearing it to shreds in the name of our democracy and our forefathers...

GeneV · 12-09-2011, 08:13 AM

Bipartisanship is not the problem, but the problem is the fact that it can't be practiced outside national defense paranoia.

MRRiley · 12-09-2011, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by séamuis

A sad day is probably the biggest understatement in this nations history. if this doesn't at some point get repealed for the completely unconstitutional piece of trash the it is, I have made up my mind to leave the country and never come back. this goes against just about everything this country is supposed to stand for, and I will NOT raise a family in a nation that feels that such a law is not only justified but a good thing. its beyond scary. anyone who still wants to disagree that this countries government doesn't care about the constitution, and wants this nation to become a police state? the evidence is all around us... when are we going to wake up? will it take violent rioting in the streets like egypt to restore our nation? I'm scared. I give credit to John stewart for being just about the only tv personality to bring this to attention. it shows, in my eyes that this nation doesn't give a damn about their constitutionally granted freedoms, and thats more scary than the government that doesn't give a damn.

this is bad, really bad and it will only open the floodgates for the complete stripping of all of our personal freedoms. we may as well burn the constitution now and save the trouble of the government tearing it to shreds in the name of our democracy and our forefathers...

Trouble is... where are you gonna go that's not just as bad or worse in one way or another? Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet. The rich own politics the world over and pretty much do what they want.

pxpaulx · 12-09-2011, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by MRRiley

Trouble is... where are you gonna go that's not just as bad or worse in one way or another? Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet. The rich own politics the world over and pretty much do what they want.

Possibly true, but there are many countries that at least treat their citizens with basic human dignity and respect.

Nesster · 12-09-2011, 08:57 AM

national defense paranoia + a long standing campaign against the ACLU = relativism in liberty

séamuis · 12-09-2011, 09:01 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by MRRiley

Trouble is... where are you gonna go that's not just as bad or worse in one way or another? Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet. The rich own politics the world over and pretty much do what they want.

thats a pretty sorry way of looking at things. you think there is anything worse than a nation as powerful as this one passing such laws? (well I can think of one thing.. a nation where its citizens don't care that the government passes such laws and passes it all off as being in the name of 'security'.) I can think of plenty of nations that may be looked upon as just as bad or worse in many ways, I'm not ignorant of the rest of the world. however, its not about finding a utopia of sorts, its simply about getting away from a nation that is on the fast track to destruction. see, your seemingly (and if I'm wrong on this please correct me) nonchalant answer seems to speak to not much caring about the rights being stripped from you as you speak.(why else would you address my desire to leave and throw up a 'but there isn't anywhere better' type of answer instead of addressing the problems making me actually want to leave such a 'great' nation?) I would rather live in a nation fighting for something better. fighting to rid itself of this kind of dictatorship (and lets be honest here, thats exactly where we are headed with laws like this.), than live in a nation where all its people are living in a dreamland that they actually are living in a better nation, while all their so cherished rights are being gladly and easily taken from them, without even putting up a fight.

living in a country ridding itself of totalitarian government through a citizen population that actually cares about making a change or living in a nation on the fast track to a totalitarian government, with a citizen population handing over its rights without a fight while believing that they are somehow better than the rest of the world, blissfully ignorant of whats actually happening? hrmm, well I don't know about you but I see the writing on the wall...

this is what I see, and I will glady trade up that US passport for that of a 'worse' nation, when at the very least the people of that nation fight for whats right and do their damnedest to try and change things. you see its more about that america lives in this false idea of freedom and just watches blankly as things like this happen, than it is, me being ignorant and thinking there is something that meets my crazy ideas of what constitutes a great nation. how could we give up such freedoms? how can we let this happen? people need to step away from their 'american dream' take a look at the real america. its dying, right in front of us.

and how can I fight against it, when the averae citizen cares more about the 'war on christmas', or celebrities, or wether its okay to let gay people get married or wether someone is a 'socialist' or shopping or waving their chinese made american flag high and proud for a nation that they ignorantly believe is still the nation that existed in 1776, where anyone who challenges that belief is somehow a communist or a socialist or just a lazy dirty hippie? where when met with excessive police brutality, the powers to be simply say its all justified and 'american'?

personally, I think we should indeed be rioting in the streets and taking congress, the senate and the house and the president and locking them up for treason. because this becoming law is nothing short of just that.

yet what do we have? almost no news coverage, and nobody seemingly caring. at least, nobody in the established government. the young people are watching. that i do know. thats the only shred of hope I have left in this nation. its all over tumblr, and I'm sure many other blogging and social media sites. all being pushed by the young people. but where is the established, where are they? a whole THREE senators! THREE.

no, see me claiming to leave isn't the issue you should be addressing here. this bill is the biggest threat to the american civil liberties, constitutional freedoms, our constitution in general and everything this nation is supposed to stand for, everything we claim to be fighting to protect, that this nation has ever faced. an is it from 'terror'? no, its from our own government. this is a BIG deal. every citizen should be very loudly fighting against this, and all you ask me is where would I go? I honestly expected better from you...

to answer your question though, so as to not look like I avoided it from lack of an answer, I would most likely either go to Canada (less likely) or go back to my home in northern Luzon (Philippines) until I figure out a long term plan. any sacrifices necessary would be more than acceptable to me. I feel like those lucky few who escaped Germany pre WWII. they saw the writing on the wall too... and I don't want to miss my chance to escape. if this gets passed with no hope of repeal, all I can say is enjoy your false freedom. enjoy you false idea of a good life, with little to no sacrifices necessary.

you may think I'm blowing this all out of proportion, but I think too many people here in the US aren't blowing it up enough, and thats the problem.

MRRiley · 12-09-2011, 11:21 AM

Seamuis....

I agree with you... The law is deplorable, but moving away isn't going to solve it. You are right... we should be rioting in the street or at the very least becoming politically informed and active. The trouble is, it will take a concerted effort to kick all of the current politicians out of office and put in new blood that knows they work for us, not the other way around. I for one, has resolved not to vote for a single incumbent in any election the rest of my life. Unfortunately that means I will most likely never vote for a winner again. But if enough of us do it, we might just take this country back.

Mike

pxpaulx · 12-09-2011, 12:04 PM

To Seamuis' comments regarding the young, I completely agree, I'm on the tail end of what would be considered young anymore, and though my wife and I are stable financially I feel pigeon-holed into a home I no longer want, and can't get out of without short-term financial black-listing, despite wanting to move up to something bigger and better. Around the world with populations that are weighted with young, neglected populations, we are already seeing the revolutions. In the US with a bulk of the population in the middle age and elderly demographics the youth simply don't carry that weight of influence yet. That day will come though, and I have an increasing feeling that it will be a very strong hammer. The established status quo simply won't work as it currently stands and something will eventually break.

Parallax · 12-09-2011, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by MRRiley

Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet.

With the current technology representative democracy is no longer a necessity. A direct democracy is possible, but has it's own pitfalls.
A good compromise would be a constitutional amendment providing for referenda and initiated measures. That would allow for the people to essentially veto some of these bone-headed laws.

jolepp · 12-09-2011, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by MRRiley

Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet.

I would disagree: there is still a meaningful amount of it left in most places where there ever was some. It is getting scarce though and the US, sadly, is way ahead of the curve.

It is very strange actually: the US won the cold war, yet the "American way" is about to perish in the US itself (?).

MRRiley · 12-09-2011, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

With the current technology representative democracy is no longer a necessity. A direct democracy is possible, but has it's own pitfalls.
A good compromise would be a constitutional amendment providing for referenda and initiated measures. That would allow for the people to essentially veto some of these bone-headed laws.

Jim,

As much as I like the idea of a direct democracy, extremely strong measures would have to be put into place to safeguard the rights of minority viewpoints and rights. Of course, the same measures are needed in our current system but the political alliances (aka political parties) effectively immasculate most of the existing safeguards as evidenced by the deplorable legislation in question.

Mike

Parallax · 12-09-2011, 07:49 PM

I agree that a direct democracy is not the best idea. The classic example of why being two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. That's why I favor the representative republic with the additional provision for referendum and/or initiated measures; both requiring a simple majority.

reeftool · 12-11-2011, 11:31 AM

These things sound good at first. Problem is, down the road a few years, the govt. may decide to change the definition of what a "terrorist" is. Kudos to Rand Paul for being one of the few to speak out.

12-09-2011, 07:34 AM	#1
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	Why is bipartisanship always worse than partisan bickering So apparently congress just passed a bill with a huge bipartisan majority allowing for the indefinite detention of US citizens who are accused of terrorism. No trial. No miranda rights. No lawyer. Is it just me or are the biggest turds of legislation that come out of Washington like this, the Patriot Act, and TARP come with huge bipartisan support? The only places of mutual agreement are the worst ideas. And of course the only place that really decided this was news was a fake news show... Jon Stewart Blasts Senate Defense Bill That Would Allow Americans To Be Detained Indefinitely (VIDEO) Its a sad day in america.

12-09-2011, 09:01 AM - 1 Like	#8
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Originally posted by MRRiley Trouble is... where are you gonna go that's not just as bad or worse in one way or another? Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet. The rich own politics the world over and pretty much do what they want. thats a pretty sorry way of looking at things. you think there is anything worse than a nation as powerful as this one passing such laws? (well I can think of one thing.. a nation where its citizens don't care that the government passes such laws and passes it all off as being in the name of 'security'.) I can think of plenty of nations that may be looked upon as just as bad or worse in many ways, I'm not ignorant of the rest of the world. however, its not about finding a utopia of sorts, its simply about getting away from a nation that is on the fast track to destruction. see, your seemingly (and if I'm wrong on this please correct me) nonchalant answer seems to speak to not much caring about the rights being stripped from you as you speak.(why else would you address my desire to leave and throw up a 'but there isn't anywhere better' type of answer instead of addressing the problems making me actually want to leave such a 'great' nation?) I would rather live in a nation fighting for something better. fighting to rid itself of this kind of dictatorship (and lets be honest here, thats exactly where we are headed with laws like this.), than live in a nation where all its people are living in a dreamland that they actually are living in a better nation, while all their so cherished rights are being gladly and easily taken from them, without even putting up a fight. living in a country ridding itself of totalitarian government through a citizen population that actually cares about making a change or living in a nation on the fast track to a totalitarian government, with a citizen population handing over its rights without a fight while believing that they are somehow better than the rest of the world, blissfully ignorant of whats actually happening? hrmm, well I don't know about you but I see the writing on the wall... this is what I see, and I will glady trade up that US passport for that of a 'worse' nation, when at the very least the people of that nation fight for whats right and do their damnedest to try and change things. you see its more about that america lives in this false idea of freedom and just watches blankly as things like this happen, than it is, me being ignorant and thinking there is something that meets my crazy ideas of what constitutes a great nation. how could we give up such freedoms? how can we let this happen? people need to step away from their 'american dream' take a look at the real america. its dying, right in front of us. and how can I fight against it, when the averae citizen cares more about the 'war on christmas', or celebrities, or wether its okay to let gay people get married or wether someone is a 'socialist' or shopping or waving their chinese made american flag high and proud for a nation that they ignorantly believe is still the nation that existed in 1776, where anyone who challenges that belief is somehow a communist or a socialist or just a lazy dirty hippie? where when met with excessive police brutality, the powers to be simply say its all justified and 'american'? personally, I think we should indeed be rioting in the streets and taking congress, the senate and the house and the president and locking them up for treason. because this becoming law is nothing short of just that. yet what do we have? almost no news coverage, and nobody seemingly caring. at least, nobody in the established government. the young people are watching. that i do know. thats the only shred of hope I have left in this nation. its all over tumblr, and I'm sure many other blogging and social media sites. all being pushed by the young people. but where is the established, where are they? a whole THREE senators! THREE. no, see me claiming to leave isn't the issue you should be addressing here. this bill is the biggest threat to the american civil liberties, constitutional freedoms, our constitution in general and everything this nation is supposed to stand for, everything we claim to be fighting to protect, that this nation has ever faced. an is it from 'terror'? no, its from our own government. this is a BIG deal. every citizen should be very loudly fighting against this, and all you ask me is where would I go? I honestly expected better from you... to answer your question though, so as to not look like I avoided it from lack of an answer, I would most likely either go to Canada (less likely) or go back to my home in northern Luzon (Philippines) until I figure out a long term plan. any sacrifices necessary would be more than acceptable to me. I feel like those lucky few who escaped Germany pre WWII. they saw the writing on the wall too... and I don't want to miss my chance to escape. if this gets passed with no hope of repeal, all I can say is enjoy your false freedom. enjoy you false idea of a good life, with little to no sacrifices necessary. you may think I'm blowing this all out of proportion, but I think too many people here in the US aren't blowing it up enough, and thats the problem. Last edited by séamuis; 12-09-2011 at 09:52 AM.

12-09-2011, 11:21 AM	#9
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Seamuis.... I agree with you... The law is deplorable, but moving away isn't going to solve it. You are right... we should be rioting in the street or at the very least becoming politically informed and active. The trouble is, it will take a concerted effort to kick all of the current politicians out of office and put in new blood that knows they work for us, not the other way around. I for one, has resolved not to vote for a single incumbent in any election the rest of my life. Unfortunately that means I will most likely never vote for a winner again. But if enough of us do it, we might just take this country back. Mike Last edited by MRRiley; 12-12-2011 at 07:54 AM. Reason: typo

12-09-2011, 01:39 PM	#11
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by MRRiley Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet. With the current technology representative democracy is no longer a necessity. A direct democracy is possible, but has it's own pitfalls. A good compromise would be a constitutional amendment providing for referenda and initiated measures. That would allow for the people to essentially veto some of these bone-headed laws. Last edited by Parallax; 12-09-2011 at 03:37 PM.

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12-09-2011, 07:42 AM	#2
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	It is crazy stuff like this and healthcare that makes me seriously consider packing up and moving back to Canada. I married an American and we chose to move here at the time 11 years ago basically because it was a cheaper process (being college students we didn't have much money of course). It certainly wasn't a decision based on any sort of patriotism on either side. When Sept 11th happened, the solidarity of the American people was overwhelming, and for the first time I felt we made the right decision. I became a citizen in 2006. 5 years later with the direction the country has been headed I feel nothing but sadness at the state of this once and potentially again great country. It feels like Obama was quickly shackled and broken, and that things have only gotten worse. I am disheartened to say the least.

12-09-2011, 07:50 AM	#3
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	A sad day is probably the biggest understatement in this nations history. if this doesn't at some point get repealed for the completely unconstitutional piece of trash the it is, I have made up my mind to leave the country and never come back. this goes against just about everything this country is supposed to stand for, and I will NOT raise a family in a nation that feels that such a law is not only justified but a good thing. its beyond scary. anyone who still wants to disagree that this countries government doesn't care about the constitution, and wants this nation to become a police state? the evidence is all around us... when are we going to wake up? will it take violent rioting in the streets like egypt to restore our nation? I'm scared. I give credit to John stewart for being just about the only tv personality to bring this to attention. it shows, in my eyes that this nation doesn't give a damn about their constitutionally granted freedoms, and thats more scary than the government that doesn't give a damn. this is bad, really bad and it will only open the floodgates for the complete stripping of all of our personal freedoms. we may as well burn the constitution now and save the trouble of the government tearing it to shreds in the name of our democracy and our forefathers...

12-09-2011, 08:13 AM	#4
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Bipartisanship is not the problem, but the problem is the fact that it can't be practiced outside national defense paranoia.

12-09-2011, 08:38 AM	#5
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by séamuis A sad day is probably the biggest understatement in this nations history. if this doesn't at some point get repealed for the completely unconstitutional piece of trash the it is, I have made up my mind to leave the country and never come back. this goes against just about everything this country is supposed to stand for, and I will NOT raise a family in a nation that feels that such a law is not only justified but a good thing. its beyond scary. anyone who still wants to disagree that this countries government doesn't care about the constitution, and wants this nation to become a police state? the evidence is all around us... when are we going to wake up? will it take violent rioting in the streets like egypt to restore our nation? I'm scared. I give credit to John stewart for being just about the only tv personality to bring this to attention. it shows, in my eyes that this nation doesn't give a damn about their constitutionally granted freedoms, and thats more scary than the government that doesn't give a damn. this is bad, really bad and it will only open the floodgates for the complete stripping of all of our personal freedoms. we may as well burn the constitution now and save the trouble of the government tearing it to shreds in the name of our democracy and our forefathers... Trouble is... where are you gonna go that's not just as bad or worse in one way or another? Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet. The rich own politics the world over and pretty much do what they want.

12-09-2011, 08:52 AM	#6
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	Originally posted by MRRiley Trouble is... where are you gonna go that's not just as bad or worse in one way or another? Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet. The rich own politics the world over and pretty much do what they want. Possibly true, but there are many countries that at least treat their citizens with basic human dignity and respect.

12-09-2011, 08:57 AM	#7
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	national defense paranoia + a long standing campaign against the ACLU = relativism in liberty

12-09-2011, 12:04 PM	#10
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	To Seamuis' comments regarding the young, I completely agree, I'm on the tail end of what would be considered young anymore, and though my wife and I are stable financially I feel pigeon-holed into a home I no longer want, and can't get out of without short-term financial black-listing, despite wanting to move up to something bigger and better. Around the world with populations that are weighted with young, neglected populations, we are already seeing the revolutions. In the US with a bulk of the population in the middle age and elderly demographics the youth simply don't carry that weight of influence yet. That day will come though, and I have an increasing feeling that it will be a very strong hammer. The established status quo simply won't work as it currently stands and something will eventually break.

12-09-2011, 02:10 PM	#12
jolepp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Finland Photos: Albums Posts: 3,196	Originally posted by MRRiley Representative democracy no longer exists anywhere on the planet. I would disagree: there is still a meaningful amount of it left in most places where there ever was some. It is getting scarce though and the US, sadly, is way ahead of the curve. It is very strange actually: the US won the cold war, yet the "American way" is about to perish in the US itself (?).

12-09-2011, 06:45 PM	#13
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by Parallax With the current technology representative democracy is no longer a necessity. A direct democracy is possible, but has it's own pitfalls. A good compromise would be a constitutional amendment providing for referenda and initiated measures. That would allow for the people to essentially veto some of these bone-headed laws. Jim, As much as I like the idea of a direct democracy, extremely strong measures would have to be put into place to safeguard the rights of minority viewpoints and rights. Of course, the same measures are needed in our current system but the political alliances (aka political parties) effectively immasculate most of the existing safeguards as evidenced by the deplorable legislation in question. Mike

12-09-2011, 07:49 PM	#14
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	I agree that a direct democracy is not the best idea. The classic example of why being two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. That's why I favor the representative republic with the additional provision for referendum and/or initiated measures; both requiring a simple majority.

12-11-2011, 11:31 AM	#15
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,553	These things sound good at first. Problem is, down the road a few years, the govt. may decide to change the definition of what a "terrorist" is. Kudos to Rand Paul for being one of the few to speak out.