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12-16-2011, 05:36 AM - 2 Likes   #1
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For the "America Haters" out there

There is an interesting opinion piece on CNN this morning that sums up something that many people in the world, and some on this forum, tend to forget while they rail against my country's involvement around the world. While they accuse us of imperialism and interference with other countries or just plain being "evil" they forget this one fact.

America the generous - CNN.com

QuoteQuote:
When Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the great Russian novelist who defied communism, visited America, he said, "The United States has long shown itself to be the most magnanimous, the most generous country in the world. Wherever there is a flood, an earthquake, a fire, a natural disaster, an epidemic, who is the first to help? The United States. Who helps the most and unselfishly? The United States."
And even though the quote is dated, it still holds true today... in spite of our own personal and institutional financial perils.

I'm not posting this by the way, to "toot our horn" but simply to point out that as much as we are abhorred around the world, we are always there to help when the sh*t hits the fan. It'd be nice if our detractors could at least admit that.

Mike

p.s. I'm not particularly or even generally a William Bennett fan but this time he hits the nail on the head.

12-16-2011, 06:14 AM   #2
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Just as long as they dont have to pay for other American's healthcare and education.

Jason
12-16-2011, 06:51 AM   #3
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Hey Mike, why do you even care about the "American" haters out there, I'm a proud Australian with our country's involvement around this world as I'm sure you are of yours.

Stay proud.
12-16-2011, 06:54 AM   #4
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It's a nice quote by Solzhenytsin, but for the record, after the fall of the Soviet Union, he truly showed himself to be a complete wackjob. I've seen some of his programs on Russian TV, and he was an ultranationalist of a very odd breed. I'm not discounting his courage and the things he accomplished, but all things should be taken in context.

12-16-2011, 07:11 AM - 5 Likes   #5
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while I agree with the sentiment of the quote, and do honestly think that for the most part it is true, you CANNOT make any attempt to cover up atrocities committed by the US by illegal, and often unjust and unwarranted military actions. a quote like this, despite its true nature, also on some level discounts the actions and sacrifices of plenty of other nations and their brave men and women who also help around the world, many of them without the blood stained hands that the US has.

you can take my sentiments how you'd like and call me 'anti-american' or whatever else, I don't care. but do you think I'm going to ignore the estimated 1.5 million human beings that have died since the illegal invasion of another nation? do you think we would ignore that if the tables were turned and it was that many american civilians?

yes, we do a lot of good, easily more than any other nation I would think, and a lot of american lives have been sacrificed in the process. something we can never forget, and I personally never will forget. But I think there is a very valid reason that much of the world both hates and fears us.

what should be talked about here, is the sad fact that for as much good as we do for the world, we allow all of that to be overshadowed by actions that do indeed fit the definition of imperialism. thats nobodies fault but our own, and we should hang our heads in shame for those facts, instead of raising a flag in national pride for the things we do right. if we as a nation wanted to be remembered for all the good we do, then its very simple, we stop fighting unjust wars, stop sending millions of people to their deaths and start putting that money, effort, blood, sweat, tears and even lives into doing nothing but helping others. unless another nation askes for our help, or we aren't the only nation to believe that military action is necessary and we join a multi-national coalition, or god forbid we actually have war declared upon us, then we shouldn't be sending our troops into any sovereign nations borders. period.

say what you want, but you all know I speak the truth. instead of getting upset at negative views on our nation and its people, and retaliating by waving our flag with a false sense of pride, we should be giving thought to exactly why they feel the way they do. this blind patriotism needs to end, so that we can start making changes for the better, so that we may indeed have a valid reason to hang our flag high with pride as an actual beacon of hope and prosperity to the rest of the world. if we want to wave that flag proud for all the good we've done and the sacrifices made, then we first must as american citizens wash our hands of the blood. until then, our good deeds will continue to go overshadowed, and rightly so.

Last edited by séamuis; 12-16-2011 at 07:28 AM.
12-16-2011, 07:30 AM   #6
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The thing is, bringing up atrocities and other bad behavior by your country is holding the country you love to a higher standard. But, just as we don't want to focus on our own (personal) faults, we don't want to focus on the country's faults. This opens it up for cheap political points.

I'm with you Seamuis.

What is also lacking is the appeal to our better nature re. foreign aid. Again this is used to score cheap and cynical political points: how others don't 'deserve' aid, how others 'fail' relative to America when it comes to helping out.

This isn't to say that we ought to be unrealistic about what it means to be a global power. There will be power politics, there will be meddling and military intervention... And the world sees this. (It looks different from the outside than inside.) The power of ideals is often overlooked. The power of simple help & diplomacy is overlooked. The positive effects of foreign aid come at a far lesser cost than military sabre rattling. The red meat politicians see this sort of thing as vegettarian
12-16-2011, 07:33 AM   #7
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Ron Paul says we don't even to give help to tornado/flood victims here in the US..............he says our neighbors will pitch in and help...

12-16-2011, 07:36 AM   #8
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Ron Paul needs to study history a bit to see why we are where we are:
Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Up to a point I can see the rolling back of govt aid to 'minor' catastrophes - but we then have to define the point at which as a country we cannot leave it to the neighbors to fix.
12-16-2011, 07:43 AM   #9
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Under Ron Paul's world, If I lived on a dirt road, I would pave my part and wait for my neighbors to pave theirs.........I can also build my own gun turrets to do my own policing....
12-16-2011, 07:45 AM   #10
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I'm from the Netherlands and born way way WAY after WWII. But we still celebrate the fact that the allies (that, of course, includes the US) freed our country from the Germans. There's still big festivities every year.

Sadly though, nowadays it seems that the American population, enjoys very little freedom, compared to the Netherlands.
12-16-2011, 07:49 AM   #11
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William J. Bennett blew $8 million gambling

QuoteQuote:
From the information in Alter's and Green's articles, Bennett seems to be in deep denial about this. If it's true that he's lost $8 million in gambling casinos over 10 years, that surely is addictive or compulsive behavior no matter how good virtue has been to him financially. He claims to have won more than he has lost, which is virtually (that word again!) impossible playing the machines as Bennett apparently does. If he's not in denial, then he's simply lying, which is a definite non-virtue. And he's spraying smarm like the worst kind of cornered politician—telling the Washington Post, for example, that his gambling habit started with "church bingo."

Even as an innocent hobby, playing the slots is about as far as you can get from the image Bennett paints of his notion of the Good Life. Surely even a high-roller can't "cycle through" $8 million so quickly that family, church, and community don't suffer. There are preachers who can preach an ideal they don't themselves meet and even use their own weaknesses as part of the lesson. Bill Bennett has not been such a preacher. He is smug, disdainful, intolerant. He gambled on bluster, and lost.
Bill Bennett: The bookmaker of virtues. - Slate Magazine
12-16-2011, 08:24 AM   #12
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Very well spoken séamuis.

Mike, just because someone isn't a fan of US policy does not make them a hater. As long as America continues to do both harm and good, there will be praise and gratitude, but also criticism, mistrust and opposition. America does great things, as do other many other not quite so wealthy countries. I applaud the good, but I am constantly disappointed by the meddling in other countries' affairs by the American government and agencies. I heard on CNN the other day that the US spends more on espionage than all other countries in the world combined.

We've all witnessed "foreign aid" used as grease for US interests, even to the extent of inciting revolution or propping up murderous dictators. The US has serious internal problems with crime, poverty, lack of universal health care, a sinking educational system, etc. Stop overfunding the military, stop unjustified meddling in foreign countries, fix your internal issues, and the respect will come. The US under Obama has acted like a responsible citizen of the world during the Arab Spring. Hopefully this will continue.

OTOH, I'm nervous about the POTUS election. The hawkish pronouncements I've heard coming from the Republican candidates are very scary. Most want war with Iran. Bachmann would start a world war. It is frightening to think that these candidates represent the viewpoint of approximately half of Americans. Can they not see that the Iraqi war was an unmitigated disaster? I have high hopes that we won't see a Republican president this time, but I don't have a lot of faith in a nation that re-elected Nixon and Dubya.

Last edited by audiobomber; 12-16-2011 at 08:54 AM.
12-16-2011, 08:24 AM - 1 Like   #13
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I have to say Mike, having grown up in the US and then moved to Canada... I can tell you, a lot of people don't see Americans the way Americans see themselves. And there are a lot of people who already see what America does internationally, and still aren't sure overall they are a positive force in the world. Assuming that others need to have it pointed out to them what America does.. is just another chest thumping all American moment. The first thing that impressed me moving to Canada, in 58, so 13 years after world war 2 was the bitterness still felt because the United State didn't enter WW2 until 1942. There were thousands of Canadian dead, while the good old USA sat on the fence selling munitions to both sides. America was responsible for selling supplies to Germany that led to Canadian deaths on the battlefield. As a 10 year old, I was informed numerous times what a bunch of candy asses my country were, how bereft of any real moral standards. And that is the thing with Americans, they beat their chests, as you are doing now about how wonderful they are, but when it comes to explaining to the world why they are at times so spineless... they leave that for 10 year olds to deal with, to get blindsided when they move out of the country. There is propaganda and there is truth. That article is propaganda. It doesn't have to be false to be propaganda. It just has to leave out negative parts of the truth. Does all the American relief work since the Vietnam make up for trying to bomb an already poor country back into the stone age, in order to install a friendly government? Nothing happens in a vacuum. Chest thumping is chest thumping. And there is an element of American society that does way too much of it. The fact that they actually believe it, just makes it worse.

Last edited by normhead; 12-16-2011 at 08:32 AM.
12-16-2011, 08:34 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I have to say Mike, having grown up in the US and then moved to Canada... I can tell you, a lot of people don't see Americans the way Americans see themselves. And there are a lot of people who already see what America does internationally, and still aren't sure overall they are a positive force in the world. Assuming that others need to have it pointed out to them what America does.. is just another chest thumping all American moment. The first thing that impressed me moving to Canada, in 58, so 13 years after world war 2 was the bitterness still felt because the United State didn't enter WW2 until 1942. There were thousands of Canadian dead, while the good old USA sat on the fence selling munitions to both sides. As a 10 year old, I was informed numerous times what a bunch of candy asses my country were, how bereft of any real moral standards. And that is the thing with Americans, they beat their chests, as you are doing now about how wonderful they are, but when it comes to explaining to the world why they are at times so spineless... they leave that for 10 year olds to deal with, to get blindsided when they move out of the country. There is propaganda and there is truth. That article is propaganda. It doesn't have to be false to be propaganda. It just has to leave out negative parts of the truth. Does all the American relief work since the Vietnam make up for trying to bomb an already poor country back into the stone age, in order to install a friendly government? Nothing happens in a vacuum. Chest thumping is chest thumping. And there is an element of American society that does way too much of it. The fact that they actually believe it, just makes it worse.
Spoken like a native Norm

I don't hate amercansper se - i do frequently hate american gov't policy and the jingoistic crap that comes along with it.

As a side note it could have been my uncle bill telling you that stuff norm. He trained at Camp X in World War II and trained American forces who he thought were "candy Asses". he was 5'6" and weighed about 160 and was one of the toughest b*stards i ever met went down with 3 ships in the war and kept going back for more. he'd been sunk twice before America even signed up
12-16-2011, 09:14 AM   #15
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Honestly I agree with that up and to a point, that we are taken for granted, helping as we do. I've long though that we should back off a bit in terms of foreign aid and see what happens, how fast the rest of the world might switch tunes if they couldn't depend upon us so much. I doubt it would help much though. The whole world thinks we have money to burn. I mean let's face it, that's true. It's not so, not anymore, in fact the more money we give out the worse it gets, but they still think it. I'm sick of it all. The wars, the money going everywhere but here. We can give billions to whomever, fight wars that cost billions, but man oh man they'll cut school budgets and social programs here to the ninth degree and hike taxes to do all that, won't they? Americans should come first with our government but we don't. That's true too.
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