[jheu02]

Anyway, sorry if I got too indignant at you there, ...It's hard not to resent people insisting that book is authority over both the real world and people's souls wnen you've been subject to a lot of mistreatment over it, and it's used to justify causing so much pain in your own life and stuff A lot of the stuff they call 'prophetic authority' is a little less harmless than people walking around assuming it takes special equipment to see the stars. You teach that kind of thought process, before you know it someone's trying to beat the soul out of kids for being different or whatever.

Not to mention what happens when that gets applied in politics, of course. It gets people hurt.

I truly am sorry that you've been treated that way by those claiming to be Christian. Personally, I've only had doors slammed in my face, been yelled at, and had the police called on me, but Jehovah's Witnesses have been slandered, mistreated, beaten and killed by the very same institutions (mainstream Christendom as well as the other major religious traditions, and governments) throught the world. Witnesses were sent to the concentration camps, exiled to Siberia after having their children taken away from them (in some cases), beaten with clubs studded with nails in (Soviet) Georgia, beaten, raped, and killed in Malawi (for not buying a 25 cent political party card). The list goes on. Even in the US, witnesses have been tarred and feathered, beaten, expelled from school, etc. all for believing differently than mainstream "Chritianity." And it's been the religious leaders at the forefront of many of these attacks.

I'm not trying to diminish or deny your experience or that of other Pagans, or those leading an "alternative" lifestyle, just trying to let you know that, though we use the Bible as the basis for our beliefs, we're hated for it by those same ones as give you problems for not believing it. But, I can tell you, that no JW would do that to you. We aren't the ones enacting discriminatory laws, as we don't get involved in politics. In fact, many of the freedoms we do enjoy in the US (while they last anyway) were won in the Supreme Court by JWs arguing for them.

You know, that's one reason why the door to door thing pisses a lot of people off, ...you don't know how they've been treated by people waving that stuff, or how badly, ...you know, I'm a big girl now, but I don't need someone waking me up out of some often-badly-needed sleep just so they can see if I like the flashbacks.
<SNIP>
But there are associated burdens and worries about being a minority religion in a country full of people who have a book that they might read as a license to execute you in various ways. And those aren't found in your book, I'm pretty sure, rather that sort of thing is 'OK if Christians do it.'

What this means that though the book says it's 'good' to go around doing that, it's *not,* really. If you think the book's own authority overrides *those* realities, people do get hurt. Especially some of us who actually aren't short on spirituality, but just don't fit your schema about it.

I won't speak for other faiths, but, if you don't want Jehovah's Witnesses to come to your door, just politely ask to be put on a "Do Not Call List" the next time we do come to your door. If another JW calls at your door later, it will only be because a. we are human and make mistakes - you'll get an apology for the inconvenience, or b. infrequently someone might stop by to see if the "do not call" situation still applies (people do move and someone different may be living at that address, or a personal event causes the person who originally did not want to be called to have a change of heart and would like to talk about the Bible or other topic). So, I won't tell you you'll never be contacted again, but you shouldn't fear having to be put on the spot to talk with us either.

(Incidentally, the Greek Hades doesn't quite correspond to the Christian Hell, which isn't the same as the Hebrew Sheol per se, either. Clearly the Christians got some of their ideas there about it, but it's not like some 'place of eternal punishment for 'sinners' and 'nonbelievers.' It's sure not meant to scare the wits out of people:

I agree, but I'd say that what typically passes for the "Christian" hell isn't based on a correct understanding of the Bible. Though I may be generalizing the word Hades, I would like to say that some Bible translations certainly muddy the waters about death. I realize you have your own ideas about death and afterlife, etc, and I'm not trying to change that, just trying to clear up some misperceptions about the Bible since I feel it's been given a black eye by the very people you're rightfully upset with (along with the others here who distrust it and the way it's been used).

The Hebrew Sheol did just mean the grave, the pit, etc...the state of inactivity due to death. No thought processes, no pain, just a state of non-living. Though I know you don't believe in the Bible, according to it, those who are in Sheol have a chance to live again through the resurrection. Jesus would have used this term (Sheol) or the Greek Hades (roughly an "unseen place") to speak of death. This is the "first" type of death.

Jesus also used a 2nd term, with corresponding different meaning, for a 2nd type of death, and that is where the misunderstanding and mistranslation has occured. Jesus used the term Gehenna (taken from the Valley of Hinnom) to describe a death from which no resurrection would take place. So just like the refuse that was thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into the Valley of Hinnom where fires were kept burning to utterly destroy that refuse (i.e. you couldn't go bring it out and put back together whatever was burned up), there would be those who God would not resurrect, but would remain dead forever. Not tormented, no anguish, just utterly destroyed with no chance of a resurrection. A sleep from which they'd never awaken.

Instead of keeping these 2 distinct outcomes separated by different terms, translations such as the KJV sometimes use the English term "Hell" to mean both. They've also then used a literal "tormenting hellfire" doctrine to control others..."repent or else you'll be burned forever." Sound familiar? What they can't answer is: if man is made in God's image, and God is love, how could God burn someone for eternity for what they'd done in a lifespan of 70 or 80 years, when it would be completely revolting to us humans to turn a gas burner on high flame and stick our child's hand in there for but a moment just because they did something wrong.

So, as a quick summary from a Biblical standpoint (maybe not as exact to your liking as it should be about the Greek):

Sheol = Hades = Hell = death, inactivity, pit, unseen place = if you end up here the possibility to live again exists
(that's why Jesus compared death to sleep in the account about Lazarus)

Gehenna = lake of fire = 2nd death = if you end up here, you don't get a second chance at life (but you're also not being tormented, etc) = a sleep from which you don't ever wake up

It's easy to see why the power hungry would want to use a tormenting hellfire to control people. Can you imagine the response to: "if you don't live this certain way, when you die you're just dead and that's it" God doesn't want forced or coerced worship, it's not his thing.

[Ratmagiclady]

Well, jheu, claiming your kind of Christians have been or are persecuted elsewhere, (Actually right alongside Pagans and LGBT people in some of those same very countries,) that really doesn't mean it's 'persecution' for people to find proselytizing behavior in their own homes *rude,*... indeed, the very 'one-true-way-ism' and literalist exclusivism that a lot of Christians push, is as I mentioned, just why you're so often intolerant of *each other.* Not just other people.

(And yes, trying to reduce our lives to some idea of a 'lifestyle' is in fact seen as a denial of our humanity and existence, especially where it's used by the conservative Christian minority against our rights *right here in America.* ) That's why where this discussion has been gong about the whole 'self-referential authority' thing just not holding water outside your own beliefs, in the real world, or in an attempt at reasoned discussion of everything else.

As for 'do not call lists,' or whatever, that's actually again an imposition (It hardly helps the minority-person's anxiety to have the same thing written down on some 'official list' somewhere.) At least, for most people, It's kind of like those obnoxious texts that say 'Spend another text to opt out of this. Then we'll know it's a live number and send some other text.' But one of the main points there is that just cause your self-referential authority says this is a good thing to go around doing, doesn't mean that is the reality or someone else's point of view or experience, never mind the absolute 'truth' of it. It's like when they come along and say 'This isn't putting you out, cause we say the Bible says it's right' then you're of course like, 'Well, since it's in fact and actuality putting me out, obviously something 's wrong in there.' )

When that sort of faulty reasoning gets applied to other matters, yeah, people do get hurt. (Even if it's you guys rather regarding other proselytizing sects or established ones, etc.)



As for the Sheol thing (I actually do have something of an interest in different cultures' views of the spirit worlds, the Jewish Sheol' concept has varied and evolved over time, (I do seem to talk with a lot of rabbis in my travels over the years: I won't try and offer too much of a synthesis of that, but there's a tendency for Christians to consider themselves authorities on how Jews saw things all throughout history, and that's really not so simple. It's a pretty common idea that 'Well, there's nothing going on there till the end of the world,' but actually they've even had pretty typical reincarnation-based views of those things, in the past, there's some talk about maybe there's been a lot of conforming to Christianized views even themselves: they weren't always even monotheists, you know. But, you know, adventures in comparative religion. )


Actually, btw, the name 'Hell' actually comes from the Northern European traditions, ...Helheim isn't exactly what the missionaries made of it, either.: a similar move to what was done with the Hades thing: demonizing the old ways to say, 'Your ancestors are suffering forever' etc.


They kind of do that about everywhere, really, though with interestingly-limited success in Ireland, there's kind of like the attitude evinced in the dialogue of Patrick and Oisin, ..."The Fenians are in Hell," "Then your Devil's in trouble."

But the colonialism thing went down a bit differently in Ireland in particular: a lot of it was more similar to what happened to the Native Americans and other tribal peoples: different waves, varying degreed of balkanization, etc, etc. As a result a lot of the folk beliefs hung on in varying forms, (And the monastic rather than so much missionary emphasis early on didn't really hurt: a lot of tales were saved, however much may have been altered or edited. When the churchmen came along there was a lot more effort to cast the old ways as more sinister/evil etc: our native tribal cultures had a very big sense that the spirit worlds interpenetrate with the mundane, rather than being like all separate and inaccessible: as a result the Churches pretty much tried to call the spirits 'demons' etc, with limited success, though it did lead to a lot of unfortunate stuff like abusing or burning people as changelings: not unlike the 'child witch' problems so common where missionaries start bringing Christian ideas of 'witchcraft' to tribal cultures: (it's actually also part of why they call gay men 'fairies,' or the other f-word, having to do with the Christians burning people: possibly even the notion that the Fair Folk steal babies and replace them with logs.)

Since the Christians tend to regard a lot of things as 'The Bible says this isn't supposed to happen, therefore it's both not happening and the Devil,' they have long greeted a lot of phenomena (and types of people) as 'demonic.' My folks weren't exactly that big on folk tradition, but there was still that cultural thing in the Catholicism, 'You're not our real child,' ...and since that doesn't fit into what people are 'supposed' to believe, well, they ain't exactly playing the Welcome Back, Kotter' theme if you happen to 'know too much. ' People might not even remember *why,* but the cultural traumas remain. Cycles of fear and abuse and the like, that seem awfully familiar to the tales of, 'Maybe if we mistreat this child, we'll get the one we wanted back.' Terrors of *damnation* can lead to really bad stuff. Even the clergy abuse thing that's finally been coming out, (that they tellingly want to blame on gayness, even if most of the abuse isn't sexual and what *is* sexual is based on who's vulnerable, not the sex of the victims: it's pretty stunning the mental convolutions the abusers'll go through to claim 'This is going to 'fix' you.' Whether that's trying to 'exorcise' someone (Sorry, folks, this is actually me, displacing my soul/trying to induce Stockholm Syndrome ain't gonna help,) or 'save you from sexual sin, you lezzie tempter,' or whatever. )

(And I don't want to paint too-unremittantly-nasty a picture, either. Yes, there was a lot of bad stuff in my past, but good things, too. Things improved, at least with my own family and certain weirdness. And that came of *dealing* with it, not being another generation trying to "banish" it in one way or another. It may take awhile, but if even some of the more interesting facets of reality are dealt with in human terms, things are less about 'belief' and 'rival sources of 'proof,' you can get down to things like being some kind of family. (Even if there's no such thing as a surprise visit. ) Things like trust between *people* aren't something a religion (or argument about 'belief' ) can script in advance, I suppose. Cause you *can't* take some book and say it is the 'only way to trust and love and faith and spirituality, if you believe in interpreting the words in one right way.'



And that's *all* about the way book-religion and authority are afraid of *actual spirituality.* Same reason Christians are so afraid of 'ghosts..' or obsessed with 'Is this real or not, what does that mean for my own arse,' etc. (Also why they freak so much about 'the paranormal,' ...not to mention always associate it with terror, even while trying to displace things like a deep experience of connection to Nature as, 'Well, this is cause our God made it, not cause there's something inherently spiritual here.' Pagan faiths in general don't have that artificial divide between the Divine and some 'soulless world' ...so there's less need to worry about anything 'not fitting' there and being some 'deceptive challenge to faith or God or goodness or sanity.' Part of the problem with 'book religion' is that it tries to *reduce* the world and human experience to something that a doctrinal authority can handle, while too often demonizing the very people with the talents and capacities to be *professional about it.* Kind of the same thing with science.

There *is* more to the worlds than some dogma contains, never mind circumscribes. It's not exactly all fuzzy and safe, but neither is it all about *threats.* By our terms, there's wondrous good, a certain amount of bad, and a great wondrous lot of 'indifferent' about it. Nothing to lose your head or soul about. People can have books, too, and Gods know in my particular case I don't mind a lot of hand-holding from my own Lady. (especially about bad habits like thinking the whole freaking world actually *is* my fault: that's just another form of vanity, really, if an unwilling one,)


People tend to *want* a tidy, controlled, already-understood world. It's part of what makes our species such natural explorers and innovators as a whole, but it has a shadow-side that's a real problem if people start going to elaborate and forceful lengths to claim they've already got one, and it's all just down to blame why reality isn't like that. That, I think, includes, the fixation on *death,* or desires for/fears of immortality. My people are more about *regeneration.* Old karma can be a heavy thing, for cultures as well as whatever an individual is, but don't mistake 'grace' for 'permanency' or 'authority.' Trying to make these things so, never mind impose them, causes much more suffering than it's worth. One need only look at the recurring results of trying, to see that.


I come from various tribes, proud of our mystics, thinkers, seers, healers, and warrior-poets. I hope I gave a little of that back this time around.

I think we need it.

Same goes for 'atheists,' too, I think: same sort of paradigm, quite often, 'You must either 'prove' this or 'banish' it. ' (And nothing irritates some of em more when they say 'Prove it,' and you say, 'Sorry, I won't.' I understand scientific rigor, ...use it myself quite a bit, but there's still a big difference between 'observation' and 'documentation: ' I could go into all kinds of personal detail for myself and others, but they could still say, 'You're constructing an elaborate fraud or must have been exposed to this information before you say you were.' Them's the breaks, that way. Even eyewitnesses are only worth so much by those standards. and notoriously unreliable at that. And if you *did* prove it, there'd only be that many more people trying to *kill* it. (Corollary: it's one of my very favorite urban myths: "The government tried to weaponize this stuff but no one who could learn to do it *would.* And that falls under a good definition of a myth: "It may have never happened, but it's always true." (Actually, 'The Men Who Stare At Goats' is just delightful about that very thing. All the foibles of all kinds of folks... Yeah. ) There's a meaningful point there, though, about 'Who taught you that one could even *see* the world like this for half a minute and even *want* to hurt someone with it. And Gods help you when someone actually believes you on that point. This one's just about sheer brainpower, but imagine *feeling* it all:

You Tube

You Tube

Some's scared of smart people, too. 'Evil geniuses,' etc. Similar deal. (Irony is, I did get all the recruitment pitches, and forget about any mystical stuff or the prospect of working for Reagan/Bush, the practicalities of it involved a lot of Christians insisting it was 'holy writ' that people like me were a kind of person (later recast as a 'lifestyle' I wasn't actually living, ) that was inherently a security risk, cause I could be blackmailed by people based on homophobia being a basis of being able to blackmail people. There's ways in which I would have been proud to serve, especially at the time, but it would have meant *lying* for a long time, and that's one thing I just wasn't prepared to do. )

As for 'me,' well, I've been Christian before, and odds are I will be again. This ain't about 'Us v Them' to me, accordingly. (If you asked me now, I'd rather do something else, but, you know. Lady says 'jump,' there you are. ) But, I've no desire to see you come to harm, however little interest I have in your need to keep trying to convert everyone. If there's one thing I know, the world's a lot bigger than what's in our heads right now. As far as I can see, harm's gonna come, though, and it's going to be beyond-tempting for some of you to blame everyone else in the world. You can see it happening already. I still suggest not doing that. Again.


You never know: the next person to learn that lesson... Could be me.

(Hope you don't mind too much the length of that. Just so maybe you see a bit of where I'm coming from on certain points of logic and authority and belief.)

[redrockcoulee]

John

You are correct in the do not call works with JW and Mormons. Every few years one of them phones to ask if we still wish to be on the list which we do. My late mother in law was JW.

[Ratmagiclady]

John

You are correct in the do not call works with JW and Mormons. Every few years one of them phones to ask if we still wish to be on the list which we do. My late mother in law was JW.

True enough, though again, back to the original point, people think that 'One true literal word' has some things to say about people who say "no' like that, *too.* That's why it's an imposition, even if they say, 'We have a right to spam you at any time, but it's OK, cause the Bible says so, and here's the 'Opt out list' that we also impose.'

How about consideration for *others,* instead, before making demands or speaking to our motives, never mind demanding 'lists?' (Which even the JW right here says he'll violate once in a while 'just to make sure.' ) Gods. Why's that so hard to figure out?


Seriously. I'm not putting myself on some list that says I'm 'inhospitable,' never mind to expose myself or my dear one to what they teach about people like me. I just ask basic consideration of, and in, my own home. Not some argument why 'that doesn't count when it's this or that brand of missionary. If you think this is your home when a Christian says otherwise, you're wrong.'

Hospitality to guests is *sacred* to me. That doesn't mean that can be abused or presumed upon. Cause some of *my* stupid little customs involve things like people not having to walk through mud to get to my door (A particular challenge here, actually) and having a seat outside, should anyone have a grievance. My house may be cinder-blocks and leaky windows, but *I am the lady of this house. (Some other literalisms saw to *that.*) * Let no one say otherwise, never mind put it on me to put myself on some 'list' that they say means the opposite.

Seriously. Mother of Punk, I'm alone and disabled in a basement in the South. Thousands of miles both from home and in a different direction, from the one I love best. What *freaking* 'lifestyle' is it these missionaries think to say I'm living?

Other people actually exist, being the point.

And it's not for book people to come up and say where my pride or home or rights are. There's guest-right and then there's thinking you own the joint. (I commend you to some of our 'benighted Pagan myths' about the distinction, there.(Also, *no,* I'm not going to tell you how to monkey the rules. Pay attention for once. Seriously. After all I've been through, who says I need to put myself on *your* f'n list for you to deign to not come up and disrespect me and my home? )

I don't have much. But *don't* you claim it's on me if you don't like how I greet people. *especially* if you won't even look at it in the first place. When you come up and think you know the world when you've got your nose buried in some book or quote or pamphlet.

Or like you have some 'right' to demand I put myself on some list, instead of acting like I'm a person. When you come to *my* house. Or like my home is my home, or my soul is my soul. Even if none of these have squat to do with your book.


I'm not a character out of your book. I advise you don't try so hard to make me one. If I believed *you* like you want for half a minute, ....You might not like that.


Learn something, instead. Or maybe meet a human. Like people exist. I kinda thought that was what yer 'savior' was trying to make a point to some 'Pharisees' about who thought they had some kind of 'eternal word.' you know, stoning people in the street then calling em welfare bums and stuff. It's like, Goddess, if you wanted me to keep doing math for you, you shouldn'ta kicked me in the right-hand parietal lobe quite so often cause some Bible said so.' And if you wanted that to add up to 'Gospel truth,' well, yeah, you had another thing coming. Even if you want to call me a 'lifestyle.'

Can we stop comparing martyrdoms, now? How about *people?*


Especially when you say 'Someone hurt you, that's why 'I can say your ears and eyes are closed.'
That's why people with a book to 'prove' *hurt* people. Then spend thirty ignoble years denying what they so self-righteously insist on doing.

Bullshit, Mr. 'Witness.'

Bullshit.

Drove me mad more than once, I don't mind saying. (The fact I lived a lot of my life restarting from some kind of fugue does more than being charmingly-anachronistic about photo gear, you know.) But I didn't close my eyes or ears. Never mind bury both in some idea of a book.

Don't *ever* presume to say that was from closing my eyes.

---

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 01-25-2012 at 09:07 PM.

[jheu02]

Well, jheu, claiming your kind of Christians have been or are persecuted elsewhere, (Actually right alongside Pagans and LGBT people in some of those same very countries,) that really doesn't mean it's 'persecution' for people to find proselytizing behavior in their own homes *rude,*

When their homes are seized, they're forcibly exiled, their children are taken from them, they're beaten, raped, imprisoned, sent to concentration camps, locked in metal containers, and killed for their faith, yes, I'd call that persecution. If you don't, I think you have a misperception of what persecution is. To ignore that and just focus on your dislike of someone coming to your door, who's quite willing to leave if you don't want to talk, I think you're missing the bigger picture of what I was saying in my last post.

[Ratmagiclady]

When their homes are seized, they're forcibly exiled, their children are taken from them, they're beaten, raped, imprisoned, sent to concentration camps, locked in metal containers, and killed for their faith, yes, I'd call that persecution. If you don't, I think you have a misperception of what persecution is. To ignore that and just focus on your dislike of someone coming to your door, who's quite willing to leave if you don't want to talk, I think you're missing the bigger picture of what I was saying in my last post.

Actually, you're the one under the misconception that these 'persecutions' only happen to Christians ever or elsewhere, never mind *here.* Never mind as an excuse to treat people badly in this allegedly-civilized society.


The 'focus' was about trying to point out, again, that the logic you apply to claiming some right to my home is applied elsewhere.

And I assure you, if you like to hear about beatings and torture about faith or 'lifestyle' there are tales I could tell. But won't.


And if you think 'persecution' is someone slamming a door in your face when you come to their door demanding 'souls,' while still insisting my life is a 'lifestyle,' you're very wrong about who gets the rapes and beatings. Even here. You're the one claiming some Biblical right to put me on a list.

No.

Goddess. What, you think I got the memory beaten out of my head from whistling Dixie, or otherwise misinterpreting Calvinism? Seriously.

You talk like the bad stuff doesn't actually happen. (except to prove some 'point.) While you sit by and 'justify' it. Like I give a crap what brand of Christian you are. Or whatever bamboozlement you use to claim people can't look up at the stars but rather should believe it's 'proven' I should be murdered immediately for your God. (even though thos Bible verses only apply to men to begin with) What do you want me to do, burn myself at the stake?

*My* daughter has to live with the consequences of your denial. And there's only so much I could do to help that. But while you call me a 'lifestyle' I've been just trying to save the planet and stuff. Not for me, not for you, but if nothing else...For a little girl you Christians screamed obscenities at. And that I had to leave in hopes you'd hurt me rather than her, you f'n *$&#&@.


Don't call me a 'lifestyle.' I was a 'second Mommy' before I even worked out the parking permits. Like I said, 'Lady says 'jump.' (Never mind little girls) There you are. You got some idea of a 'lifestyle,' Gods. You've got no freaking idea, and that was me like twenty years ago.


(Do you have any idea what that's like? You're some punk on the run and there's a little girl saying, with supreme confidence, At the time,. 'You've got to be my other Mom?'

At the time, especially, I knelt down and said, 'Little one, I have no idea how, but I'll try.'
Don't call it some Godsforsaken 'lifestyle.' You have *no* clue. None. Especially not out of your book. There's no 'lifestyle' *in* your book. Only demands. That don't work. They weren't even *saying* 'lifestyle' at the time. People like me were a defective subhumanity to the same damn people as long as they could get away with saying that. This 'lifestyle' thing is just the latest dehumanization.

Seriously, 'witness of Jehovah,' ...tell me about my 'lifestyle.' Tell me what your book tells you about my life that isn't about what you say happens to Christians in Kazakhstan. If you think you know my 'lifestyle,' Speak. Cause you haven't witnessed a Godsforsaken thing about my life, have you?


(And it's not like I haven't told you enough. How much of your 'sinning' do you really think I've been up to, anyway, that you can say your book knows all about? You think your book and dogma says I have some 'lifestyle,' tell me how much of the sex you're so scared of I was having when the one I love was even in the same *state,* never mind the same room, when even on a *good* day I'm pretty much like the battered greyhound at this point if I'm *not* crippled by arthritis. And you come along with your notions of 'sins' and 'lifestyles.' Like your Bible makes it OK to take our lives away *again.* Or say our lives are some 'style' rather than *love.* It's a bitter irony that your book claims my life is about this 'lust' of yours. So you project your 'lust' onto people like me. Dismiss it as a 'lifestyle' Act all 'persecuted.' By now I have the endocrine system of a 75 year old lady. Long since, actually. 'Lust' isn't in the equation. (Gods, I've been hearing Christians projecting about 'lust' since the plumbing *did* work. Wasn't interested in your 'lust' then *either.*


Love? More than you seem to be able to know. Gods. Someone I *love* could take apart the molecules for ya, and we still can't live together like human beings. Lifestyle? Not so much.

Love?


You don't want to be in the way of that. Cause I still got style. )


And, hey. Seriously. I'm a queer. A much-battered one. I come from a long line of cops, bards, and Marines. If you really believed in your own God or Devil, wouldn't you have something better to bang on my door about at this point than some 'lifestyle?' You want to see my 'lifestyle,' spud,. come on in. I mean, what, do you think it pleases your God that I should be alone now? Or that it pleases your sect to claim what you say so insistently has nothing to do with the results? Come visit. Tell me about how your book makes this a 'lifestyle.' You'll get the best I have. *spit.*



And not to put too fine a point on it, tell me about my *lifestyle* if you think your book knows all.


You say your book knows all, then *speak it.* Tell me who I am and what I do, .....'witness.' Gods know I said enough already. Challenge yourself. Say something. From your book. (I like Ecclesiastes, out of all of it, btw, ...yes, I read it. cover to cover. Been a while, though. Twas very Goth, though, 'This is vanity.' Know what I'm saying? )

[jheu02]

This will be my last post on this, as I didn't like the negative tone that has been left here.

Seriously. I'm not putting myself on some list that says I'm 'inhospitable,' never mind to expose myself or my dear one to what they teach about people like me. Hospitality to guests is *sacred* to me. <SNIP> Seriously. After all I've been through, who says I need to put myself on *your* f'n list for you to deign to not come up and disrespect me and my home? )

Or like you have some 'right' to demand I put myself on some list, instead of acting like I'm a person. <SNIP>

I have done no physical harm to you. Jehovah's Witnesses have done no physical harm to you. I acknowledged your persecution and that it was terribly wrong, whoever did it to you. That they claimed to follow Jesus puts a black eye on all who follow him. Not you, you're in the right about what's been done to you by who did it to you. Just please don't lump JWs in with mainstream Christendom because JWs are peaceful and would never do that to anybody.

You've missed the point about the "do not call list." It's all about trying to respect the wishes of whoever is living at each address. It has nothing to do with assuming someone is inhospitable and only has to do with whether they'd welcome a discussion about the Bible. No names are involved. It is not "demanded" of anyone. Since you're not interested in what the Bible says (and based on you're experience with those claiming to be Christian I can't blame you), I was trying to help you to not be "bothered" with JWs coming to your door.

Actually, you're the one under the misconception that these 'persecutions' only happen to Christians ever or elsewhere, never mind *here.* Never mind as an excuse to treat people badly in this allegedly-civilized society. )

If you had read my post, you would have seen that I acknowledged your persecution as real, terrible, unwarranted and completely in the wrong. There are other groups that receive persecution too though.

From Webster's online dictionary:

persecution : the condition of being persecuted, harassed, or annoyed
persecuted : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief

Whatever you experienced due to your Pagan beliefs is certainly persecution. I never said it wasn't. What has happened to Jehovah's Witnesses because of our beliefs is also persecution. What happened to the Jews during Hitler's reign was persecution. What has happened to the GLBTQ community (I hope that also doesn't offend) is also persecution. Do I need to give more examples?

And if you think 'persecution' is someone slamming a door in your face when you come to their door demanding 'souls,' while still insisting my life is a 'lifestyle,' you're very wrong about who gets the rapes and beatings. Even here. You're the one claiming some Biblical right to put me on a list.

No Jehovah's Witness is "demanding souls." Also not claiming some "Biblical right" to put you on a list. See above re-explanation.

You talk like the bad stuff doesn't actually happen. (except to prove some 'point.) While you sit by and 'justify' it. Like I give a crap what brand of Christian you are. Or whatever bamboozlement you use to claim people can't look up at the stars but rather should believe it's 'proven' I should be murdered immediately for your God. (even though thos Bible verses only apply to men to begin with) What do you want me to do, burn myself at the stake?)

I think if you read my post you'd see that I do acknowledge very bad stuff happening. But it doesn't just happen to you. It does happen to others. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that anyone should be murdered, regardless of what they believe. And we certainly do NOT justify any violence that has been done to you or anybody else regarless of race, nationality, religion, economic status, sexual orientation, mental capacity (see the state-sponsored sterilization issue and reparations being discussed in NC right now), etc

<SNIP>I've been just trying to save the planet and stuff. Not for me, not for you, but if nothing else...For a little girl you Christians screamed obscenities at. And that I had to leave in hopes you'd hurt me rather than her, you f'n *$&#&@.

Directing this at me or any Jehovah's Witness is totally uncalled for. JW's do not use profanity, nor would do anything like what you mention.

Don't call me a 'lifestyle.'
Don't call it some Godsforsaken 'lifestyle.' You have *no* clue. None. Especially not out of your book. There's no 'lifestyle' *in* your book. Only demands. That don't work. They weren't even *saying* 'lifestyle' at the time. People like me were a defective subhumanity to the same damn people as long as they could get away with saying that. This 'lifestyle' thing is just the latest dehumanization.

I wasn't calling you a "lifestyle", and for this I apologize. I simply thought that term was acceptable, but I see it's not. Is GLBTQ the correct term now, or did I just offend you again? I'm not making light of this. Should I just use the terms heterosexual and homosexual? I realize that "people are people" as Depeche Mode sing, but when speaking about persecution, specific groups or classes of people are needed to see who's persecuting and who's being persecuted, so that we're all speaking about the same thing.

You say your book knows all, then *speak it.* Tell me who I am and what I do, .....'witness.' Gods know I said enough already. Challenge yourself. Say something. From your book. (I like Ecclesiastes, out of all of it, btw, ...yes, I read it. cover to cover. Been a while, though. Twas very Goth, though, 'This is vanity.' Know what I'm saying? )

Since you like it...Ecclesiastes 12:13 "The conclusion of the matter, everything been heard, is: Fear the [true]God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man."

This is not a morbid fear though, but a reverential one, as in a child not wanting to displease his/her parent(s).

[Ash]

Good response John. Now let's keep to non-personal discussion on the topic please. Although there are a number of 'commandments' and guidelines the Bibles does give to believers, they are all centred on love. Love (and reverence) for God, and love for all mankind. All else falls into place when this is our goal.

[Ratmagiclady]

Good response John. Now let's keep to non-personal discussion on the topic please. Although there are a number of 'commandments' and guidelines the Bibles does give to believers, they are all centred on love. Love (and reverence) for God, and love for all mankind. All else falls into place when this is our goal.

Actually, I haven't gotten back to this one, but obviously, 'everything doesn't fall into place' when people try and impose that book-literalism.. (even if they displace the bad effects while still claiming inerrancy to their teachings,) nor does claiming that self-referential authority makes it OK mean that the people aggrieved just ran across some people not doing that *enough.*

Recurring theme here has been you guys refusing to accept a) that your claims about matters of fact and other people's experiences actually *don't* pan out outside your own little world, and b) that calling things 'prophetically true' may blind you to the very fact that, as in the matter of the color of the stars, trying to force the world into *conclusions* that serve only your self-referential authority's authority, ...you may indeed be blinded both to the actual world and the very existence of other people.

Of *course* people get cheesed off when these irrationalities are used to oppress and defame us, while self-righteously messing up the world, then blaming the non-Christians and the LGBT folks when just what we've been trying to warn people about *happens.*

Blithe assurances that 'Oh, well, if this stuff I teach is the premise and justification for all this harm, then they aren't the 'Real Christians' so it doesn't count, but of course, making more people submit to Christian demands and creeds is of course the only way to fix that. ' ...That's the same kind of denialism that *does* hurt people, even if you aren't personally beating up on someone.

The *frustration* people feel about trying to *get along and live* in a world where that literalistic fallacious authoritarianism has too much power over us comes from *just that.* People being deaf to any responsibility for how they systematically treat the world. Even try to destroy people's very ability to *think* about it.

It's the fundamental lack of *respect* for others that turns these conversations 'negative' after a lot of these very impositions and defamations, then displacements and denialisms. To you, everything that doesn't fit in your Bible apparently needs to be crammed in there as 'yet another of the many forces somehow irrationally hating Christianity,' when what it's *really* about is your own actions and demands ...and defamations.

Even the blithe repeated assurances that if we don't want to believe what the Christians do, and are put off by the negativity and insult the proselytizers *canvas* with, while we of minorities your form of Christianity *condemns* say, "We don't always feel safe speaking openly with these proselytizers cause we have real fears of being singled out, here's some of *why,* " the response, particularly from JWs, is, "Well, my God says my religious opinion is more important than your life or home, so put yourself on a list with all the proselytizing churches, then you won't feel ...singled out? " That's just more of the same damn irrationality: exactly how is putting myself on a list for the same people I don't want to have prying in the first place supposed to 'help?' That's just *more* imposition, never mind making what's rude somehow *polite.*

Trying to say 'This is what this is like for various minorities, and it's not cause anyone 'hates you' It's not *about* you. It's about the effects of what you *teach* on our lives and our world. And when pissing people off, saying, 'God says all of you shouldn't be pissed off when we do this, or you're 'persecuting' me, sinner. Sign on my list, if you want privacy. JW's are persecuted elsewhere, so that means what happens in your own life right here doesn't count, This makes sense somehow. Cause my book says so. '

And that's just not *respect.* Never mind reality. Or 'proof' of anything.

As I've said before, I live in an area and a situation where I'm just not able to protect myself from the results of having all the Fundies know I'm Pagan, especially with the recent re-intensification of the defamation campaigns about us. And I'm a fair bit too ragged to make much of a poster-child, anyway, obviously, even if I did have the health and resources to do so. It goes much the same for the problems you guys have and promote with me and my sweetie as LGBT people. (And want to bring to my door if not into my home with the law.) And a lot of that's because I *have* been battered and harmed and outcast and starved out by people saying *just the same things.*

One small measure of control people like us have among a world taught to hate, fear, condemn, and scapegoat us, is *having just a little say in who we tell and especially who connects that to our homes and property. Cause it's all too hard to not have something of a siege mentality about all this hate in the news and society and monotheist religious politics as it *is.*

This isn't all about your Bible telling you that anyone who doesn't kneel to that Bible must hate you for kneeling to that Bible. I don't hate you. I have a lot of reasons to be *recurringly angry with what you do and say. * It'd seem the common element among people pissed off at you... Is you. And your demands. That everyone else in the world is lesser than you in all those respects where you think your religion makes you so superior, yet always seem to have to explain away when it results in bad things.

If you *spend* a week pissing someone off, they might just express anger. Try a life.

I got some stuff I wrote yesterday, in regards to the further things you said, yesterday, jheu, but it needs some editing. Been having a bad week for some of the health problems.


I'll also note, by the way, using 'fear' and doublethink and denial to justify *abuse* and calling it *love* is a poor relationship regarding *any* family, never mind a God. I've been blessed with some pretty close relationships with my own Gods, who were for a time the only parents I had. And They've got some scary faces, but that's not about 'fear,' even as a response to *awe,* never mind shutting down or something. Fear is perhaps to some a natural initial response to awe, but the point of fear is to get *through* it, not worship it.

Faith is, in fact, the opposite of fear. I don't share your existential terrors. Despite people trying their damndest to condition me with them. My only worry about the Gods that I've had that parental relationship with, is letting Them *down.* And I think *that* is out of a well-earned devotion, not fear of being punished for breaking some interpretation of some incoherent 'rules.'

(And, by the way, there's a real difference between thinking you're *perfect* or 'Righteous' and simply not worshipping at the altar of *blame* (ie 'sin,') or of dodging blame, like it's the only spiritual matter in the world. Frankly, i think all this talk like 'saving your personal soul' from the very image of 'God' that supposedly set the whole thing up in the first place, is about the most pernicious form of vanity there *is* in this society right now. If you'd been worked over enough that you *still* blame yourself for everything wrong in the world if you're not careful, you might realize that's part of the trap of that form of religion, or any such form of shame-and-fear-inducing, for 'sinners' and 'saved' alike. (Something I'd say Lady had a time of teaching me some years back, if not ongoingly. )

But look around: I'd say *that's* why denial and projection are so much the constant response of the book-literalists, especially when it comes to notions of control: or anything new being some 'threat to the beliefs or soul or in-group,' but also actually part of why there's such fearfulness and self-absorption in the *societies* they've controlled. And why the people pushing those forms of religion for the interests of wealth and power find divisions and fear of the 'other' or any 'otherness' or new information at all, such a useful *means* to power. For authoritarian types, 'true believers' in their own hearts or not, ...they want that power and control and dominance, and simply invoking that book authority to get it is as easy as lying comes to a liar. Even if people *want* a simple authority to follow, they end up making a pretty complicated mess of their own and others' lives trying to force the world to be so. Very often much to their own grief as well as the world's. )

[les3547]

Good response John. Now let's keep to non-personal discussion on the topic please. Although there are a number of 'commandments' and guidelines the Bibles does give to believers, they are all centred on love. Love (and reverence) for God, and love for all mankind. All else falls into place when this is our goal.

It doesn't appear as though your guidance will be heeded, but would be nice if we could have a discussion about religion without the thread being taken over by someone's need to relive wrongs (real or imagined) done to them. Hearing about it once may even be too much, but hearing about it for years over and over and over again, and then repeated in single threads over and over and . . . it essentially amounts to a hijack. I know I drop out when it starts because any chance for a rational exchange of ideas with a variety of participants becomes more remote than distant galaxies.

[kenafein]

Although there are a number of 'commandments' and guidelines the Bibles does give to believers, they are all centred on love. Love (and reverence) for God, and love for all mankind. All else falls into place when this is our goal.

They are not all centered around love. That's not a tenable statement, but the sentiment is nice. Maybe you're reading the Jefferson Bible . I imagine even the most altruistic religion could be twisted and used to exclude or hurt others, and if there were no religion, then some other dogma or prejudice. It's just a sad part of human/animal nature.

http://gawker.com/5569315/new-study-shows-chimpanzees-go-to-war-over-territory

[jheu02]

They are not all centered around love. <SNIP> I imagine even the most altruistic religion could be twisted and used to exclude or hurt others, <SNIP>

So, is that the religion's fault or the people who aren't practicing it in accord with its tennets? (bold italics mine)

[kenafein]

So, is that the religion's fault or the people who aren't practicing it in accord with its tennets? (bold italics mine)

The tenets as you see them? I'm sure many people think they are following them. The problem is that things are too open to interpretation, but what I stated previously is that most of our problems stem from our biology. We are both a cooperative and selfish species not far removed from our great ape cousins.

Which dogma seems irrelevant. There are unspeakable horrors condoned and perpetrated in the Bible, and yet many people live good lives, full of love, compassion and tolerance, while claiming to be Christians and Jews. Then you have people like those of the Westboro Baptist Church and Rick Santorum. The stricter adherents, who follow the law and not the spirit of the law, they feel that they are holding to the tenets, and that their interpretations and desires should be in force. I'm sure a similar story could be told of Islam, of Hinduism, Fascism, et al.

[Ratmagiclady]

It doesn't appear as though your guidance will be heeded, but would be nice if we could have a discussion about religion without the thread being taken over by someone's need to relive wrongs (real or imagined) done to them. Hearing about it once may even be too much, but hearing about it for years over and over and over again, and then repeated in single threads over and over and . . . it essentially amounts to a hijack. I know I drop out when it starts because any chance for a rational exchange of ideas with a variety of participants becomes more remote than distant galaxies.

You've got a lot of nerve calling everyone else 'irrational' when pretty much insisting on the argument being all about your own logical fallacies.

Or doing that thing where, 'Oh, this is just about RML (Ignoring the context she puts it in: namely, me being just an example among many I cited about how that very fallacy you've been trying to defend with more book authority affects a *lot* more than some abstractions about cosmology.)

I think you guys are the ones with your ears closed about this. In fact, I wouldn't *have* to go into personal detail if you weren't insisting there can be no connection between what you guys *teach* and the "fruits" of that teaching.

The fact is, in the *real* world, that book you claim is the could font of knowledge and goodness is what 'hijacks' everyone's lives. *That's* what people come to the door repeating over and over again, or are all over the TV and the Internet selling falsehoods about other real people and seeking for control.

You can make the 'They're not the True Christians if what they do results in bad, but we'll say the same thing as 'Absolute Truth' and attack your character anyway, cause my book called some other people this or that, ...and like I said, if book-monotheists won't hear or acknowledge the truth about me *now* ...I have no particular inclination to believe they were telling the truth *then.* '


And again, you turn it around like, 'Oh, this is just about one person, and my Bible, (Not what she says from other sources, or what the real world says, ) ...Poor us, she 'won't accept guidance' (Apparently in the form of two Christians talking entirely *past* her, at that.) Condescension, much?


It's not a 'rational discussion' when you guys don't accept reason itself, or any source but your own, in the first place.

The point isn't for me to be going, 'Oh, woe is me,' ...the point is, just like with the more-abstract thing about claiming "proof that all this stuff about people like you, and the world, in my book is "overriding prophetic truth" cause I didn't actually look up at the stars," ...it *does* do harm to people. Cause yeah, *that* thought process and *those* claims have been used to hijack *my life* *my country,* my *family,* and way too much of *my world.* Too much of *our future* will suffer for it. And has been already.

(Note: I'm not angry *at* my family, I'm angry *for* my family. The terror they acted out of wasn't their idea. That's kind of the point here, And we get along passing well, now, both the Pagans and Christians among us, and that took some doing. It took some *reality,* too. Not some hammering on Bible quotes. Not to mention a little well-placed magic, of the 'See, I figured out what all this weirdness is *for:* helping people,' variety. Gods willing, that's *one* family that won't be so vexed by all that comes of trying to drive out any weirdness or queerness for a long time. )


Lives and countries and nations and cultures *hijacked* by that book-literalism, though: that's what *I* hear every day for years. That happening to someone else. Or someone on the TV claiming only they are 'righteous' and everyone else is to be suppressed, etc, etc. Meanwhile, the same people quote the same Bible and claim they're 'under attack' if they aren't allowed to make it worse.

Meanwhile you wring your hands at each other and go, "Why, oh, why, are we so 'persecuted for our beliefs?' " And you probably won't ever hear the answer: You're really not. You're just casting the world that way while justifying/displacing everything done in your name, and thinking that instead of, for instance, calling other Christians on this, that the answer is to try and do image therapy for the abuses. To maintain some willful ignorance.

A lot of people and a lot of systems *suffer* cause certain people want the world crammed into some 'simple' monolithic authority and black-and-white thinking. But remember that thing about 'Occam's razor?' ...A 'simple' answer that both doesn't fit the observations, and indeed needs a whole bunch of other elaborate theories to 'explain away' the observations is *not* what 'Occam's Razor' indicates. Even if you push the complications off on everyone, and every *thing* else.

And you wonder why Christian literalists are seen as arrogant, willfully-ignorant, and insultingly-condescending. It's precisely because you *don't* want to hear about the reality of the effects of your 'guidance.'

Not even once.

[les3547]

You've got a lot of nerve calling everyone else 'irrational' when pretty much insisting on the argument being all about your own logical fallacies.

Or doing that thing where, 'Oh, this is just about RML (Ignoring the context she puts it in: namely, me being just an example among many I cited about how that very fallacy you've been trying to defend with more book authority affects a *lot* more than some abstractions about cosmology.)

I think you guys are the ones with your ears closed about this. In fact, I wouldn't *have* to go into personal detail if you weren't insisting there can be no connection between what you guys *teach* and the "fruits" of that teaching.

The fact is, in the *real* world, that book you claim is the could font of knowledge and goodness is what 'hijacks' everyone's lives. *That's* what people come to the door repeating over and over again, or are all over the TV and the Internet selling falsehoods about other real people and seeking for control.

You can make the 'They're not the True Christians if what they do results in bad, but we'll say the same thing as 'Absolute Truth' and attack your character anyway, cause my book called some other people this or that, ...and like I said, if book-monotheists won't hear or acknowledge the truth about me *now* ...I have no particular inclination to believe they were telling the truth *then.* '


And again, you turn it around like, 'Oh, this is just about one person, and my Bible, (Not what she says from other sources, or what the real world says, ) ...Poor us, she 'won't accept guidance' (Apparently in the form of two Christians talking entirely *past* her, at that.) Condescension, much?


It's not a 'rational discussion' when you guys don't accept reason itself, or any source but your own, in the first place.

The point isn't for me to be going, 'Oh, woe is me,' ...the point is, just like with the more-abstract thing about claiming "proof that all this stuff about people like you, and the world, in my book is "overriding prophetic truth" cause I didn't actually look up at the stars," ...it *does* do harm to people. Cause yeah, *that* thought process and *those* claims have been used to hijack *my life* *my country,* my *family,* and way too much of *my world.* Too much of *our future* will suffer for it. And has been already.

(Note: I'm not angry *at* my family, I'm angry *for* my family. The terror they acted out of wasn't their idea. That's kind of the point here, And we get along passing well, now, both the Pagans and Christians among us, and that took some doing. It took some *reality,* too. Not some hammering on Bible quotes. Not to mention a little well-placed magic, of the 'See, I figured out what all this weirdness is *for:* helping people,' variety. Gods willing, that's *one* family that won't be so vexed by all that comes of trying to drive out any weirdness or queerness for a long time. )


Lives and countries and nations and cultures *hijacked* by that book-literalism, though: that's what *I* hear every day for years. That happening to someone else. Or someone on the TV claiming only they are 'righteous' and everyone else is to be suppressed, etc, etc. Meanwhile, the same people quote the same Bible and claim they're 'under attack' if they aren't allowed to make it worse.

Meanwhile you wring your hands at each other and go, "Why, oh, why, are we so 'persecuted for our beliefs?' " And you probably won't ever hear the answer: You're really not. You're just casting the world that way while justifying/displacing everything done in your name, and thinking that instead of, for instance, calling other Christians on this, that the answer is to try and do image therapy for the abuses. To maintain some willful ignorance.

A lot of people and a lot of systems *suffer* cause certain people want the world crammed into some 'simple' monolithic authority and black-and-white thinking. But remember that thing about 'Occam's razor?' ...A 'simple' answer that both doesn't fit the observations, and indeed needs a whole bunch of other elaborate theories to 'explain away' the observations is *not* what 'Occam's Razor' indicates. Even if you push the complications off on everyone, and every *thing* else.

And you wonder why Christian literalists are seen as arrogant, willfully-ignorant, and insultingly-condescending. It's precisely because you *don't* want to hear about the reality of the effects of your 'guidance.'

Not even once.

As I said, It doesn't appear as though Ash's guidance will be heeded. When it comes to Christianity, I've never seen you adopt a view that is the slightest bit charitable, as one normally does when sharing ideas (as opposed to pushing opinions), but God forbid anyone slight your own dearly beloved paganism. To be frank, you are so nuts when it comes to this subject, I believe you and everyone else would be better off if you were to refrain from participating in such threads. There are plenty of other subjects where you seem just fine, why not consider sticking to those?