[séamuis]

I did not say "she would have likely died..." And my comment was not meant to be insensitive nor was it meant to refer to this poor girl specifically or personally. I simply said she (anyone really) was "more likely to die because of a drunk" driver. There are, statistically, far more people killed by drunks with cars in this country than there are by irresponsible people with guns.

actually you didn't say it in that general tone, though that may have been what you meant. you specifically cited being hit in her (horesedrawn) buggy. this goes to a more specific set of circumstances that are in regards to the amish only, not just the possible circumstances of being hit by a drunk driver. so unless you have evidence that drunk driving cases are high in that particular area (being the area in which she was killed), your comment comes across as an amish specific excuse for possible death. and as such it came across as an excuse for the downplaying of her death.

I get that you clearly didn't mean it that way, but your choice of wording at the very least very much came across that way. regardless, other possible ways of death for a 15 year old amish girl are completely irrelevant in this case, (or any case for that matter) so how can one not see your statement as at the very least being apologetic for gun owners (which includes the man clearly guilty of at least manslaughter), or just simply insensitive? there was no reason for saying what you said, even if it is possibly true.

[MRRiley]

actually you didn't say it in that general tone, though that may have been what you meant. you specifically cited being hit in her (horesedrawn) buggy. this goes to a more specific set of circumstances that are in regards to the amish only, not just the possible circumstances of being hit by a drunk driver. so unless you have evidence that drunk driving cases are high in that particular area (being the area in which she was killed), your comment comes across as an amish specific excuse for possible death. and as such it came across as an excuse for the downplaying of her death.

I get that you clearly didn't mean it that way, but your choice of wording at the very least very much came across that way. regardless, other possible ways of death for a 15 year old amish girl are completely irrelevant in this case, (or any case for that matter) so how can one not see your statement as at the very least being apologetic for gun owners (which includes the man clearly guilty of at least manslaughter), or just simply insensitive? there was no reason for saying what you said, even if it is possibly true.

Seamuis,

The only reason I made the comment was in reply to Bill's incessant compulsion to paint all American firearms owners/users as homicidal irresponsible maniacs bent on the destruction of everyone who stands in their way. The comment, was just a way of saying that the circumstances which killed this girl were exceedingly rare and that she would generally be assumed to be in much more danger from cars sharing the roads with her (whether in a buggy or a Buick) than from an irresponsibly fired mini-ball. This holds true whether the girl was Amish or Hindu or Atheist. I mentioned her buggy because the Amish drive them along the same roads as people driving cars and trucks. That's all. I, furthermore, do not see how this even implies an apology for gun owners or an excuse for this guy's carelessness. It is just stating a fact which IS relevant, that far more people are killed in this country by people with cars than are killed by people with guns.

I don't understand why you are getting so hung up on this. I am NOT blaming the victim in any way or implying she was gonna die one way or the other. So lets get back to the real issue... I think we both agree that this dipstick should be hung out to dry for his irresponsible recklessness!

Mike

[reeftool]

I always remember day one from the hunter safety course I took as a kid decades ago. The instructor said there are no such things as "accidents" with guns and if proper handling procedures are done then nobody will "accidently" get shot. This guy was careless and lazy with his gun and should be charged, just as a reckless driver is charged when somebody is injured or killed on the highway.

[Wheatfield]

Seamuis,

The only reason I made the comment was in reply to Bill's incessant compulsion to paint all American firearms owners/users as homicidal irresponsible maniacs bent on the destruction of everyone who stands in their way. The comment, was just a way of saying that the circumstances which killed this girl were exceedingly rare and that she would generally be assumed to be in much more danger from cars sharing the roads with her (whether in a buggy or a Buick) than from an irresponsibly fired mini-ball. This holds true whether the girl was Amish or Hindu or Atheist. I mentioned her buggy because the Amish drive them along the same roads as people driving cars and trucks. That's all. I, furthermore, do not see how this even implies an apology for gun owners or an excuse for this guy's carelessness. It is just stating a fact which IS relevant, that far more people are killed in this country by people with cars than are killed by people with guns.

I don't understand why you are getting so hung up on this. I am NOT blaming the victim in any way or implying she was gonna die one way or the other. So lets get back to the real issue... I think we both agree that this dipstick should be hung out to dry for his irresponsible recklessness!

Mike

No Mike, you read into my post what you wanted to read. I've noticed this about you any time you feel the need to defend your gun rights.
Perhaps you could go back to my post and quote specifically where I said all American firearms owners/users are homicidal irresponsible maniacs bent on the destruction of everyone who stands in their way.
Be specific. Use quotations if necessary.
Any trying to deflect from this by saying how the person was statistically more likely to die in some other way is a junk argument.
That dog don't hunt.
Statistically, she was more likely to grow up, get married, have children, grandchildren, perhaps great grandchildren, and have a fulfilling and happy life, except for the fact that a bullet to the head cut short any possibility of all that happening.
As for charging the guy, was Dick Cheney charged for shooting one of his hunting buddies?
Do you charge everyone who runs a stop sign and kills someone with their vehicle with manslaughter?
Accidents happen, killing someone by accident with a gun is, apparently, viewed exactly the same way as accidentally killing someone with a motor vehicle, at least in the USA.
I don't agree with it, I think the American attitude to guns, violence and war in general is a disease, but it's your disease, and unless you, as a nation, care to deal with it for what it is, innocent people are going to die unnecessary and avoidable deaths because people don't use guns responsibly, and because guns make it too easy to go from being pee'd off at someone to taking their life (which was not the case in this situation I realize, but if you can stray from topic, I can too).
The irrefutable fact is, this sort of thing is bound to happen in a culture that has as many firearms in the public as your culture has.
The Amish girl is a victim of American society and it's views on firearms. The shooter is an example of that lasse faire outlook.

[JohnBee]

An Ohio man "cleaning" his muzzleloading rifle fired it into the air and managed to hit and kill a 15 year old Amish girl over a mile away.

Ohio man cleaning gun killed Amish girl

1. Firing a muzzle loading rifle IS indeed required to clean it IF it was loaded and not fired. There is no SAFE way to unload a muzzleloader otherwise.

2. To discharge/unload a muzzleloader properly, you aim it toward a suitable backdrop and fire it.

3. You do not simply point it up in the air and pull the trigger.

The sheriff is calling this an accidental shooting and does not plan to press charges!

This is RIDICULOUS! This IDIOT should be charged, at a minimum, with reckless endangerment and probably with manslaughter.

Some people are just so *&^%*& STUPID!!!

Mike

If It's an accident, I don't see why the guy should be charged. However, if people didn't own and use guns as a hobby etc. then this likely would have never happened. I mean... why even handle a live ammunition collectors item anyways?

Whatever the case, there's no telling how distraught the gun handler was after the fact, but I'm guessing that he is suffering the consequences of his actions by having to live with himself as a result of this.

TBH. I think we should abolish all guns once and for all and put an end to these types of accidents. Guns are just senseless in this day and age anyways.

[Wheatfield]

TBH. I think we should abolish all guns once and for all and put an end to these types of accidents. Guns are just senseless in this day and age anyways.

You do realize that the next post from Riley will be about abolishing cars.
It's a strawman, but it's all he's got.

[MRRiley]

No Mike, you read into my post what you wanted to read. I've noticed this about you any time you feel the need to defend your gun rights.
Perhaps you could go back to my post and quote specifically where I said all American firearms owners/users are homicidal irresponsible maniacs bent on the destruction of everyone who stands in their way.
Be specific. Use quotations if necessary.
Any trying to deflect from this by saying how the person was statistically more likely to die in some other way is a junk argument.
That dog don't hunt.
Statistically, she was more likely to grow up, get married, have children, grandchildren, perhaps great grandchildren, and have a fulfilling and happy life, except for the fact that a bullet to the head cut short any possibility of all that happening.
As for charging the guy, was Dick Cheney charged for shooting one of his hunting buddies?
Do you charge everyone who runs a stop sign and kills someone with their vehicle with manslaughter?
Accidents happen, killing someone by accident with a gun is, apparently, viewed exactly the same way as accidentally killing someone with a motor vehicle, at least in the USA.
I don't agree with it, I think the American attitude to guns, violence and war in general is a disease, but it's your disease, and unless you, as a nation, care to deal with it for what it is, innocent people are going to die unnecessary and avoidable deaths because people don't use guns responsibly, and because guns make it too easy to go from being pee'd off at someone to taking their life (which was not the case in this situation I realize, but if you can stray from topic, I can too).
The irrefutable fact is, this sort of thing is bound to happen in a culture that has as many firearms in the public as your culture has.
The Amish girl is a victim of American society and it's views on firearms. The shooter is an example of that lasse faire outlook.

Bill, I am not going to go back thru your countless posts blasting American gun owners... That would take pages. Do you understand hyperbole? That is the tense I was using when I mentioned your opinions of guns and gun owners. It shows even in this quoted post. And comparing manners of death is completely relevant when people like you start blaming an inanimate object for how a animate being misuses it. You just don't want to place the blame where it should be placed... with a irresponsible human.

You are right, statistically, this girl was more likely to grow up and eventually die of old age than she was to get killed by a carelessly fired projectile slamming thru her as she drives her buggy. This is true of all of us. Most people do die of old age or perhaps various diseases, than die even in car accidents, but it is a certainty that some people will become casualties. I could step into the elevator this afternoon and it could fall 20 floors and squash me flatter than a pancake. All that means is that my life and a mechanical failure happened to coincide. Nothing I could do could prevent it, other than taking the stairs all the time. But I am not going to live in a paranoid fear that I might die in an elevator. It is so unlikely that I'm not gonna worry about it. Just like I'm sure the last thing this girl worried about was getting shot from a mile away by an idiot with a gun. If she had been five minutes faster or slower, perhaps she would have never even known the gun was misused. On the other hand, she might have been hit by a hypothetical drunk driver. In that case she is just as dead.

I've also not tried to deflect anything. I simply pointed out that there are less deaths caused by firearms misuse than are caused by automobile misuse. Naturally that doesn't help this poor girl, but it is a simple fact and is completely relevant to the conversation, particularly after your "live with the fact that from time to time they are going to be used carelessly to kill people" comment regarding firearms. I guess this means you have gotten totally used to the fact that from time to time cars are going to be used to carelessly kill people." The point you miss is that the tool that aids in the death is not nearly as implicit as the human who misused the tool..

1. Dick Cheney did not kill his hunting companion though if he'd shot me I would have demanded he be charged with "negligent discharge of a firearm" at least. Good thing about being VP though is people other than the media will let you get away with a lot. The shooter in this case did kill someone through his negligence and deserves to face the consequences. He should be charged!

2. A person who runs a stop sign and kills someone should be charged with something. Reckless driving at the minimum and I would support charges for "negligent homicide" or "manslaughter" unless there were logical and compelling reasons for them running the sign. There are no logical or compelling reasons to fire a rifle into the air to unload it. One of the first rules of firearm safety is to always know where your bullet is going to go. This guy blew it and the girl paid with her life. He should be charged!

3. I actually think that killing someone with a car and killing someone with a firearm SHOULD be treated the same way. Why should it matter what the tool was that was used to kill someone. You on the other hand seem to think that guns are intrinsically "more evil" than cars. Its true that guns are designed to kill. I won't dispute that. But they are not evil. They are used unlawfully on a regular basis by evil humans to perpetrate all kinds of mayhem. Certainly, they are! No argument! However, they are also used lawfully by "not evil" humans on a regular basis to prevent or dissuade actions by evil humans. I personally put this shooter in the "evil" human camp. He should be charged!

4. The solution to "unnecessary and avoidable deaths because people don't use guns responsibly," is to educate people how to properly and safely use their firearms. The flip side of this is to hold them responsible if they chose to act carelessly or recklessly as this guy did. He should be charged!

5. So since it was "bound to happen" we shouldn't be outraged? You are outraged over intangibles. I prefer to be outraged over specifics! This guy acted specifically in a criminally negligent manner. He should be charged!

6. Do you want us to overlook, or do you simply assume we will overlook, his misuse of his weapon. Who is being lasse faire now? I WANT something to be done. I want the guy to be held responsible. He should be charged!

Is that clear enough?

Mike

[Wheatfield]

Just to clarify what you obviously didn't read:
I said: "innocent people are going to die unnecessary and avoidable deaths because people don't use guns responsibly"
Where, in this sentence, have I intimated that the gun is the responsible party.
Where we differ is you thinking that having a bunch of guns freely available in society doesn't lead to gun deaths, and my looking at the facts and saying that it does. The gun isn't responsible, but having the gun so readily available is irresponsible and does lead to accidental gun deaths.
I don't think even as die hard as you can argue this fact.
We also differ in that I don't introduce cars at every possibility as a way of deflecting the debate to a non sequiter.
I don't see a lot of point in being outraged by the outcome if there have been no steps taken to do anything about the inevitable.
With the number of guns present in your society, it is inevitable that innocent people are going to be killed. Being outraged by this is makes as much sense as being outraged by a strong wind.

[MRRiley]

Bill... you implicitly blame the gun when you use terms such as "gun culture" and you continue to concentrate unerringly on deaths in which a gun plays a role and ignore those in which a car plays a role. I use cars as a comparison because they contribute to the deaths of far more people than guns do.

I furthermore, never implied that "having a bunch of guns freely available doesn't lead to gun deaths." Of course it does. But what you fail to recognize is that guns in the hands of law-abiding and responsible citizens often lead to saving lives... at least the lives of those same law abiding citizens. And while you see the mere presence of a gun as irresponsible, I consider it more irresponsible to fail to provide for your own self defense or for the defense of your family. I don't care one whit if some violent criminal scumbag dies when he attacks someone and they turn out to have a means of self defense.

And whether you care or not, and whether you think it is senseless, I am completely within my rights to feel outrage when something like this girl being killed by an idiot misusing a firearm happens. In fact, I see it as a societal responsibility and only when enough people get outraged by occurances like this will we take that first step toward preventing "the inevitable" (your words).

[MRRiley]

If It's an accident, I don't see why the guy should be charged. However, if people didn't own and use guns as a hobby etc. then this likely would have never happened. I mean... why even handle a live ammunition collectors item anyways?

Whatever the case, there's no telling how distraught the gun handler was after the fact, but I'm guessing that he is suffering the consequences of his actions by having to live with himself as a result of this.

TBH. I think we should abolish all guns once and for all and put an end to these types of accidents. Guns are just senseless in this day and age anyways.

I frankly do not believe in "accidental shootings" in general... Unless the weapon is faulty, every case where a "bystander" is wounded or killed in a firearms related incident involves negligence or recklessness to some degree!

I also do not care how distraught the shooter was/is. He should not have acted so recklessly in the first place and if he had used proper and safe gun handling procedures he would not be distraught and this girl would not be dead. And damned straight he should be suffering about this, but that suffering is insufficient "penalty" for killing someone.

If you can get the guns away from the criminals and other evil people in the world, then perhaps I will be willing to consider getting rid of mine.... but until you manage that, I consider my firearms a sensible tool to own. And none of my personal guns has ever even been fired at another human being. I've also never had to use my fire extinguisher, but that doesn't mean I may not need it someday.

Mike

[séamuis]

why even handle a live ammunition collectors item anyways?

this may be a bit off topic, and I don't know for sure, as the article doesn't cite, but not all muzzleloaders are 'collectors items' (I assume you were making the assumption that he was using an antique weapon) there are quite a number of modern muzzleloading guns available on the market.

[Wheatfield]

Bill... you implicitly blame the gun when you use terms such as "gun culture" and you continue to concentrate unerringly on deaths in which a gun plays a role and ignore those in which a car plays a role. I use cars as a comparison because they contribute to the deaths of far more people than guns do.

Bullshit Mike. The term "gun culture" does not put any blame on the gun in anything other than your imagination.

You can use cars as a comparison all day long, you are still making a stupid comparison, even though it is one that anyone with a gun bias makes.

I furthermore, never implied that "having a bunch of guns freely available doesn't lead to gun deaths." Of course it does. But what you fail to recognize is that guns in the hands of law-abiding and responsible citizens often lead to saving lives... at least the lives of those same law abiding citizens. And while you see the mere presence of a gun as irresponsible, I consider it more irresponsible to fail to provide for your own self defense or for the defense of your family. I don't care one whit if some violent criminal scumbag dies when he attacks someone and they turn out to have a means of self defense.

Guns in the hands of irresponsible or deranged citizens leads to the deaths of innocent lives, this is something you conveniently overlook.
Has anyone bothered to keep score? I bet more innocent people die of lead poisoning in your country than "scumbags".
Actually, I find the presence of guns to be terrifying. However, the society that I grew up in doesn't have the same level of violence that your society has, and consequently, I have far less to fear than you do.
Or at least, I don't need the crutch of a gun to give me a false sense of security.

And whether you care or not, and whether you think it is senseless, I am completely within my rights to feel outrage when something like this girl being killed by an idiot misusing a firearm happens. In fact, I see it as a societal responsibility and only when enough people get outraged by occurances like this will we take that first step toward preventing "the inevitable" (your words).

Feel as much outrage as you like, but this sort of senseless death is tied directly to the society you live in. The fact that you can shoot each other with no consequences other than personal remorse, if you happen to have some sense of empathy, speaks volumes about how your society values human life.

[Ratmagiclady]

With every and any Tom, Dick and Harry who can pony up enough cash to buy a gun is allowed to in the USA.
Jason

Except that's not true. Even in some pretty 'gun-crazy' states, about big magazines and cash-and-carry etc, the very fact of having *been* actually assaulted can disqualify one from legitimately buying a gun. It makes sense to a point, but there is irony there. When people say 'More firepower will solve anything. Unless you're poor, and a 'rape victim.'


Frankly, if anyone down here should want a gun, it's me. The fact I'm not convinced I'd want to spend that scratch on one notwithstanding.... I really don't give a crap how fast someone gets extended magazines, not so sure I could have a revolver legit if I could spare a couple months' groceries for one: I honestly haven't even asked.

[MRRiley]

Feel as much outrage as you like, but this sort of senseless death is tied directly to the society you live in. The fact that you can shoot each other with no consequences other than personal remorse, if you happen to have some sense of empathy, speaks volumes about how your society values human life.

Bill,

How can you miss the fact that that is the very point that I am trying to make? There need to be consequences beyond personal remorse for shooting an innocent person! Thats what I want for this idiot... Due to his personal recklessness he killed an innocent 15 year old girl... and he should face the consequences!!!

Mike

[Ratmagiclady]

Bill,

How can you miss the fact that that is the very point that I am trying to make? There need to be consequences beyond personal remorse for shooting an innocent person! Thats what I want for this idiot... Due to his personal recklessness he killed an innocent 15 year old girl... and he should face the consequences!!!

Mike

As crazy as 'gun culture' gets, this is kind of a case of 'Don't discharge a longarm in an unsafe direction. Or at all near population centers.' Ever. Even if it's black powder.

Yes, this was an accident. This one's really not abut the guns, though. Actual accident. Three people were shot around here by 'celebratory gunfire' in much more modern ways. Responsibility, though, Get it?