[MRRiley]

oh man, you and I have very different taste in movies if thats your feelings toward The Hobbit. its probably true though.

It's just that Tolkien fans have been wishing for a GOOD movie version of The Hobbit since Rankin/Bass butchered it so badly...

It would be an incredible scene, but the problem with the Silmarillion is the narrative, the story. It just doesn't have the pull of the Hobbitt or the Lord of the Rings, and wouldn't transfer to the screen as well. Tolkien admitted that the Silmarillion became almost more of an ongoing hobby than a Novel

There is more than enough meat to hold together IMHO... the only real problem is that only true Tolkien fanatics (like me) have ever read The Silmarillion, so there is not the demand for it that there is for The Hobbit.

I always sort of suspected that Ungoliant and Shelob were drawn from the same historical source, something Tolkien was aware in his deep studies of Northern Mythos, something he tried to draw into the story. With Shelob, it was a more concrete, simple drawing (and came first, I think.) With Ungoliant, deeper in the past and more abstract. But possibly the same historical/mythical source.
.

No telling what the basis was for Ungoliant, other than perhaps man's general and deep seated fear of spiders, but Shelob was her/its offspring so she is easy to explain...

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Last edited by MRRiley; 01-06-2012 at 09:50 AM.

[boriscleto]

It's just that Tolkien fans have been wishing for a GOOD movie version of The Hobbit since Ralph Bakshi butchered it so badly...

Actually, Rankin/Bass distributed by Disney in 1977. Ralph Bakshi did the first half of Lord of the Rings a year later. Rankin/Bass finished it with Return of the King in 1980.

Critics primarily focused on adaptation issues, including the unfamiliar style of artwork used by the Japanese-American co-production team, whereas some Tolkien fans questioned the appropriateness of repackaging the material as a family film for a very young audience. Douglas A. Anderson, a Tolkien scholar, called the adaptation "execrable" in his own introduction to the Annotated Hobbit, although he did not elaborate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit_(1977_film)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Rings_(1978_film)

The animation for The Hobbit and Return of the King was done by a Japanese studio. Ralph Bakshi used rotoscoping.

I had the "storyteller read along"...

The Hobbit (1977 film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[MRRiley]

Actually, Rankin/Bass distributed by Disney in 1977. Ralph Bakshi did the first half of Lord of the Rings a year later. Rankin/Bass finished it with Return of the King in 1980.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit_(1977_film)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Rings_(1978_film)

The animation for The Hobbit and Return of the King was done by a Japanese studio. Ralph Bakshi used rotoscoping.

I had the "storyteller read along"...

The Hobbit (1977 film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, I just remembered that and was about to correct it... "Rankin/Bass" always makes me think "Ralph Bakshi"... see the similarity? LOL

Mike

[boriscleto]

Tolkien denied the Nobel Prize for bad storytelling - Telegraph

Other well-known names who were nominated and passed over that year include Robert Frost, Lawrence Durrell and EM Forster. Frost, an American poet who lived in England as a young man and forged a great friendship with his fellow poet Edward Thomas, was deemed to be too old. Durell was said to have an unpleasant "preoccupation with erotic complications". And Forster, who published his last novel A Passage to India in 1924, was "a shadow of his former self".

The eventual winner was the Yugoslavian writer Ivo Andric, whose writings draw on the folklore of his native Bosnia.

I'm sure his work would make great movies...

[Ratmagiclady]

I always saw Bombadil as sort of a "Mother Earth" or Gaia analog... Given the dearth of significant female characters in the story (the books... not the movies), and his cultural context, Tolkien portraying Mother Earth as a male is understandable..

Actually, 'Lord of the Forest' types, (Even some rather merry aspects thereof, as well as some of the rather mystical sounding references to being of great age, etc, ) are familiar enough to the mythologies Tolkien draws on: any of his own tendency to male characters aside: it's not really 'substituting for Mother Earth' in those contexts: polytheistic source material and all. Different polytheisms, too: which gives Tolkien plenty of chances to choose a male figure over a female one, too. He gets a lot of this stuff from Finnish traditions, notably the Kalevala, too, and you might see some of the sources of the general cosmological structure and a bunch of other familiar-to-Tolkien fans figures.

Tolkien kind of was about trying to put European mythology into some kind of common context, and to some extent reconcile a lot of it with general monotheism: I know there's plenty of commentary out there on that, but you can see some of his preferences in general. He was pretty culturally-ambitious there, of course, but wasn't really being so theological about it.

As for Ungoliant... I always interpreted her to be Eru Ilúvatar's "shadow" in some way... since "light" cannot exist without "dark." This makes more sense when you consider that Melkor, even though he was the oldest and most powerful of the Valar, was not Eru's equivalent/opposite, he was Manwe's.

Mike

p.s. As a sidenote, It'd be great if Satan Peter would tackle bits and pieces of "The Silmarillion" after the Hobbit... Room for lots of great movie magic there... and wouldn't the CfoMA hate it?

It's actually been way too long since I read any Tolkien, ...I think all I've got left is my SIlmarillion. (And sweetie's got the Kalevala, so where am I for source materials... Internet. ) But the Silmarillion's always been a favorite. It's hard to imagine that not being like an art film or at least like, a whole bunch of TV-movies of the week. There's probably enough between that and all the other writings to make a series like that outlast 'Columbo' or something.

I'm not remembering much detail on Ungoliant, but if I'm recalling correctly, she's kind of on the folkloric pattern of reducing some Goddesses to hags/monsters, kind of 'off to the side somewhere' in the world/cosmology. Like a lot of the stuff about Lilith and all.

[MRRiley]

I'm not remembering much detail on Ungoliant, but if I'm recalling correctly, she's kind of on the folkloric pattern of reducing some Goddesses to hags/monsters, kind of 'off to the side somewhere' in the world/cosmology. Like a lot of the stuff about Lilith and all.

The thing about Ungoliant was, she was not derived from one of the Valar, at least as far as Tolkien ever explained. He even said he left her a bit of a mystery. The reason I always interpret her as Eru's "shadow" is that while Eru is complete and total good, Ungoliant was complete and total evil. This makes her a more primal character than even Melkor... who was initially"good" but turned evil by questioning Eru and revolting... There is NO parallel to Ungoliant in any current or past religion that I know of, while Eru/Melkor closely parallels Yahweh/Lucifer...

[MRRiley]

Tolkien denied the Nobel Prize for bad storytelling - Telegraph

I'm sure his work would make great movies...

That tells me that the committee was simply not smart enough to understand Tolkien... LOL

No offense intended, but has anyone here (outside of Europe) ever heard of Ivo Andric before Boris posted this? Didn't think so...

[Ratmagiclady]

The thing about Ungoliant was, she was not derived from one of the Valar, at least as far as Tolkien ever explained. He even said he left her a bit of a mystery. The reason I always interpret her as Eru's "shadow" is that while Eru is complete and total good, Ungoliant was complete and total evil. This makes her a more primal character than even Melkor... who was initially"good" but turned evil by questioning Eru and revolting... There is NO parallel to Ungoliant in any current or past religion that I know of, while Eru/Melkor closely parallels Yahweh/Lucifer...

Well, if the information in Tolkien doesn't *exist,* fair enough, (Explains how I don't recall any, at least, though with me that's never my first guess when I can't remember something. ) ...Though when you phrase it that way, it actually does kind of go to the Lilith story in esoteric Judaism and later imports to Christianity: it's kind of about taking older/neighboring Gods and casting them as 'bad guys,' which is something they often do in those morally-dualistic monotheisms, (but it's hardly unknown, elsewhere.)

Being rather more used to the cross-cultural chase, maybe I just tend to see ideas and archetypes crossing cultures and borders of time and place more readily: there's some folk traditions about spiders that I'm not even sure myself where modern Pagans get em, (I'm not sure how widespread this is, but in a few of my old tribes, it's the custom not to kill spiders, being considered sacred to the Weaver and all: it's really not too far out of our way, since a lot of us don't kill *anything* needlesly or wantonly,) but there's a possible chain of cultural connection there: (Some of those charming little folk customs/superstitious charms may actually have some kind of 'lilith/spiders' connection grafted on: it'd be pretty common to find a 'Christian' explanation or context for such things,) also, 'Grandmother Spider' is pretty common in Africa: as a quite important figure: I forget which peoples in particular, (Tolkien actually was South African,) and some of the indigenous practices could surely seem a fairly menacing to *his* point of view.

So maybe that's where he got it. He's certainly known for pulling together all kinds of things from all kinds of places.

[MRRiley]

Well, if the information in Tolkien doesn't *exist,* fair enough, (Explains how I don't recall any, at least, though with me that's never my first guess when I can't remember something. ) ...Though when you phrase it that way, it actually does kind of go to the Lilith story in esoteric Judaism and later imports to Christianity: it's kind of about taking older/neighboring Gods and casting them as 'bad guys,' which is something they often do in those morally-dualistic monotheisms, (but it's hardly unknown, elsewhere.)

Being rather more used to the cross-cultural chase, maybe I just tend to see ideas and archetypes crossing cultures and borders of time and place more readily: there's some folk traditions about spiders that I'm not even sure myself where modern Pagans get em, (I'm not sure how widespread this is, but in a few of my old tribes, it's the custom not to kill spiders, being considered sacred to the Weaver and all: it's really not too far out of our way, since a lot of us don't kill *anything* needlesly or wantonly,) but there's a possible chain of cultural connection there: (Some of those charming little folk customs/superstitious charms may actually have some kind of 'lilith/spiders' connection grafted on: it'd be pretty common to find a 'Christian' explanation or context for such things,) also, 'Grandmother Spider' is pretty common in Africa: as a quite important figure: I forget which peoples in particular, (Tolkien actually was South African,) and some of the indigenous practices could surely seem a fairly menacing to *his* point of view.

So maybe that's where he got it. He's certainly known for pulling together all kinds of things from all kinds of places.

I just remembered that Ungoliant eventually ate herself. This leads you to a possible parallel to the Ouroborus which Jungian's equate to the idea of "pre-ego" or Freud's "Id." Perhaps Ungoliant served as Eru's Id, while Melkor served as Ego... Eru himself being the Super-Ego.

Where are my waders? It's getting pretty deep in here...

Mike

p.s. IMHO Lilith, being part of the creation of man rather than the creation of angels, would be too far down on the creation chain to serve as an analog for Ungoliant.

[Ratmagiclady]

I just remembered that Ungoliant eventually ate herself. This leads you to a possible parallel to the Ouroborus which Jungian's equate to the idea of "pre-ego" or Freud's "Id." Perhaps Ungoliant served as Eru's Id, while Melkor served as Ego... Eru himself being the Super-Ego.

Where are my waders? It's getting pretty deep in here...

What, for a mystical comlit major? No such thing.

(Well, except maybe if it involves dragons. They often give me that "Isn't this past my pay-grade?" kind of feeling. )

Mike

p.s. IMHO Lilith, being part of the creation of man rather than the creation of angels, would be too far down on the creation chain to serve as an analog for Ungoliant.

Well, this is so, but part of why I tend to think part of the parallel is the 'Demoted/demonized Goddess' thing: remember Tolkien's covering a lot of time and place in *his* world, too. His tale could even be paralleling that entire process, you see. Speculation of course, but the pattern's familiar enough, even if hard to place in any one place.


(If you see myth as a living, organic process, as opposed to 'discrete, competing authorities,' it might help to see what I'm on about with that. Tolkien's got a whole bunch of different ages and perceptions and cultures meeting each other in his world: the hobbits, for instance, seem to have stories about Tom Bombadil but not realize he may be a much 'bigger deal' in some ways, till they meet him, at least. There's always more going on backstage, so to speak: and if you go to 'hero's journey' things, there's the Lord of the Forest as sort of an initiator into that wider, wilder world. )

[magkelly]

Just to show you how much attention I wasn't really paying to The Hobbit I only vaguely realized that Sherlock's Cumberbatch is voicing Smaug and that his costar Freeman is playing young Bilbo. If that ain't reason enough to sit through them both in the theater then what is? TALK ABOUT TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!! I like both of them but I could happily listen to Cumberbatch reciting a grocery list. (Excuse me I tend to salivate some over that guy, um, talking. Major crush, Cumberbatch, and it's only getting worse with every Sherlock episode they do....) I can just imagine what he'll do with the dragon, hot diggety DAAAAYEM!!!! I'm so THERE first day....

[redrockcoulee]

It's just that Tolkien fans have been wishing for a GOOD movie version of The Hobbit since Rankin/Bass butchered it so badly...



...

Is that the one with the Where there is a whip there's a way song?

[MRRiley]

Is that the one with the Where there is a whip there's a way song?

Actually thats in Rankin/Bass "The Return of the King"

You Tube

You Tube

[MRRiley]

By the way... here is the trailer for The Hobbit.

You Tube

You Tube

[jeffshaddix]

The Lay of Leithian would be a movie in itself. As would be Narn i Chîn Húrin (The Children of Húrin).

How incredible would the Fall of Gondolin be on the big screen? Ecthelion of the Fountain dueling Gothmog Lord of Balrogs...

Wow, and I thought I was alone in reading the History of Middle-Earth! Lay of Leithian was an incredible piece of work. I hope Christopher completes it and releases it standalone like Children of Huron (and then Pete J does some movie magic).