[jogiba]

Transcript from the Today Show yesterday:

HOST MATT LAUER: When you said that we already have a leader who divides us with the bitter politics of envy, I’m curious about the word envy. Do you suggest that anyone who questions the policies and practices of Wall Street and financial institutions, anyone who has questions about the distribution of wealth and power in this country, is envious? Is it about jealousy, or is it about fairness?

MITT ROMNEY: You know, I think it’s about envy. I think it’s about class warfare. I think when you have a president encouraging the idea of dividing America based on 99 percent versus one percent, and those people who've been most successful will be in the one percent, you've opened up a wave of approach in this country which is entirely inconsistent with the concept of one nation under God. And the American people, I believe in the final analysis, will reject it.

LAUER: Are there no fair questions about the distribution of wealth without it being seen as envy, though?

ROMNEY: You know I think it’s fine to talk about those things in quiet rooms and discussions about tax policy and the like. But the president has made this part of his campaign rally. Everywhere he goes we hear him talking about millionaires and billionaires and executives and Wall Street. It’s a very envy-oriented, attack-oriented approach and I think it'll fail.

Change of Subject: Oh, yes he did! Romney requests conversations about income inequality be conducted in 'quiet rooms'

[wildman]

ROMNEY: You know I think it’s fine to talk about those things in quiet rooms and discussions about tax policy and the like. But the president has made this part of his campaign rally. Everywhere he goes we hear him talking about millionaires and billionaires and executives and Wall Street. It’s a very envy-oriented, attack-oriented approach and I think it'll fail.

What's wrong with envying someone who makes in a day, sitting at a desk, the same amount that someone makes in a year working in front of a blast furnace?

If "greed is good" why not envy?

[GeneV]

As I've mentioned before, Newt has taken the GOP class warfare card off the table by going out of his way to slash at Mitt as a Vulture Capitalist and pointing out that Mitt is the son of a rich politician.

[SpecialK]

He never had me, but he lost me here...

"you've opened up a wave of approach in this country which is entirely inconsistent with the concept of one nation under God."

[mikemike]

Envy is something that drives so much of the overconsumption behavior that is prevalent in our culture. It may be insensitive to call it envy and it is definitely stupid of a rich guy running for office like Romney to tell people to only talked about in private quarters. It is people's freedom of speech to voice their jealousy in any peaceful way they see fit.

[Nesster]

the class warfare thing must have been cooked up by some Republican talking-point tank, an inversion of liberal criticism of Republican tax and spend policies. That is, where liberals have pointed out the 'class warfare' or 'class inequity' of policies that cut programs for the poor and middle class, while cutting taxes for the wealthy, now the class warfare is the opposite.

The idea of envy plays well to some of the strivers among us - as a good part of that psychology is a form of envy - or covetousness - both towards the wealthier, and the hoped for envy of those poorer. Somehow the American dream has devolved into this. Suggesting any limits or responsibilities to accompany making a lot more money 'takes away' the dreams of those striving to make a lot more money. It isn't ego syntonic! Ironically, a good portion of the people caught in this 'envy gap' are in income bands that aren't being treated well by Republican policies - and things are getting worse, the (lower) middle class stagnation is spreading to higher income groups in this last recession.

As we've pointed out here before, we really don't have any conception of just how much money gushes for the 1%. Being in the 5% or 10% really doesn't compare. The fallacy is that we tend to assume our experience is universal. It is not.

Part of this psychology is an unwillingness to admit that one's own economic standing and prospect isn't going eternally up, that there may in fact be stagnation, and even decline, over the future years. The politics Republicans are selling means you don't have to admit this - whereas going with the Dems one sort of has to face this.

[Ratmagiclady]

Envy is something that drives so much of the overconsumption behavior that is prevalent in our culture. It may be insensitive to call it envy and it is definitely stupid of a rich guy running for office like Romney to tell people to only talked about in private quarters. It is people's freedom of speech to voice their jealousy in any peaceful way they see fit.

I find it a curious assertion to be assuming that people who are getting a raw deal must by definition be 'jealous' or 'envious,' particularly as a way to dismiss that a raw deal is happening: or to discredit the very notion that the injustice exists, or indeed that people have a right to expect change.

Most people just want a decent life: ...overconsumption may at times be a symptom of a society out of balance, ...but that doesn't mean it's remotely fair or OK to accuse anyone not-rich of being 'envious' when it's really far simpler: people are doing more and getting less out of it, while their lives are squeezed from the top down. It's been the same people making the disproportionate profits, though, that built all this on the notion of depending on a consumer economy in the first place.

Even using some of that very wealth to prey on people's hopes and dreams with predatory lending and promises of infinite growth, ...while also selling denial of the realities of the very same overconsumption. Sanctimioniously accusing the common folk of being 'Envious' ...especially in the name of his claim of a 'Christian Nation' isn't just tone-deaf: it's actually trying to sanctify injustice, and deny the good faith of those who are trying to do something about it.

[mikemike]

If you focus on happiness, as Kanye says, "money isn't everything; not having it is." I wouldn't be surprised if there were an equal number of happy people in the top 1% and the bottom 1%.

[mikemike]

I find it a curious assertion to be assuming that people who are getting a raw deal must by definition be 'jealous' or 'envious,' particularly as a way to dismiss that a raw deal is happening: or to discredit the very notion that the injustice exists, or indeed that people have a right to expect change.

I'm not saying the people who are "getting a raw deal" and living in poverty are complaining out of envy, but the people who are earning six figure incomes and still complain because they see people making 7 or 8 figures are complaining out of envy because they don't know how to be happy with more than most.

[SteveM]

Envy works both ways.... The "extremely well off" are envious of the middle classes wealth...as if they are entitled to take a larger chunk of it.

Distribution of wealth can be thought of the same way. The term is usually associated with the thought of "giving" money from the rich to the poor, but it's not like the rich print money. It has to come from somewhere and it has been redistributed from the middle class to the wealthy the past few decades. This has nothing to do with how hard you work and everything to do with creating a financial system that provides a monopoly base and power for a few.

[jolepp]

Would using 'class warfare' be making use of a socialist / communist / Marxist connotation ? ('class [struggle]' being a genuine Marxist concept).

[Ratmagiclady]

If you focus on happiness, as Kanye says, "money isn't everything; not having it is." I wouldn't be surprised if there were an equal number of happy people in the top 1% and the bottom 1%.

Well, that's one reason I *don't* envy the 'one percent,' they don't seem particularly happy, even when trying to grab more and more.

Of course, if I became accidentally-wealthy, I might be more useful to the world as a well-off eccentric than struggling not to fall off the bottom of the economic ladder: *Not* having enough money does just limit the things one can accomplish in life. and you become aware of that when you really don't stand much chance of competing: this is something that more and more people have been finding out as the wealth-stratification gets worse year by year: I sure know from personal experience that sometimes it's the most-frustrating thing to be *almost* making it, *almost* viable in the world, and on and on, only to find the 'what the market will bear' squeeze is just nickel-and-diming your prospects to pieces. One more fee, one more regressive tax, one more price hike, one more closed shop or market or lost customer, even... one more service that helps make the difference, ...meanwhile, of course, at the top it's back to record increases in profits every year while they demand *more* advantages and claim only then can they *do* anything to reverse their own job-killing actions.

Of course, adding insult to injury isn't going to improve anyone's feelings about that, never mind their real situations.


And, yeah, accusing *others* of 'class warfare' is just that Roveian way of accusing any opposition of what you're doing, *yourself.* This *is* a war on the middle and lower classes, and they've been pursuing it a long time, ...This hostile backwards-moralistic-rhetoric attacking people's *character* only illustrates it.

[SteveM]

Would using 'class warfare' be making use of a socialist / communist / Marxist connotation ? ('class [struggle]' being a genuine Marxist concept).

That might be one example, but it isn't the only one. There are plenty of capitalist based class-warfare examples. Look at the causes of the de-population of Scotland in 1770 to 1800. The Irish potato famine is another... completely avoidable as there was plenty of food in Ireland, but that class was not deemed to be worthy of grain and beef.

I would use the US health care as another example. Condemning people to death based on their participation level within the financial system and their ability to support the Insurance capitalists.

[les3547]

I'm not saying the people who are "getting a raw deal" and living in poverty are complaining out of envy, but the people who are earning six figure incomes and still complain because they see people making 7 or 8 figures are complaining out of envy because they don't know how to be happy with more than most.

I believe the charge of envy is just about 100% bullshit. Most of us making a decent living who are sticking up for those not getting a fair shake are doing so simply for goodness sake, and not because we can't be happy with what we have.

[kswier]

Would using 'class warfare' be making use of a socialist / communist / Marxist connotation ? ('class [struggle]' being a genuine Marxist concept).

I think that was the intention. The term social engineering had developed a similar connotation as well.

I personally do not understand why such a large portion of the population is making a big deal out of Obama's proposed tax hike. All they are doing is reversing the Bush tax cuts which should never have been given in the first place (to the best of my knowledge the tax cuts were paid for by deficit spending). I do not remember people complaining about taxes before the bush tax cuts any more than they are now (but I was young at the time and did not care about such things).

The real question is how raising taxes on will hurt/help short term and long term economic gain. I have never seen any politician provide a nonpartisan study to back up their claims. Basically, I think this is an engineering problem, not a political one.