[les3547]

The current occupant of the White House has actively pursued such powers (beyond GWB), and I don't think it is because of religion and right-wing fanaticism. If you think only side of the aisle is a threat in this regard, you're dead wrong.

"Actively pursued"?

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Last edited by les3547; 01-20-2012 at 05:18 PM.

[Wheatfield]

There's a huge difference between saying you don't like something your country is doing and actively supporting the opposition. The one is free speech, the other is sedition. I don't like a lot of what my country has done lately. I'm very anti-war and I freely admit that, but I'm not out there supporting Al Queda either. If someone is going to do that, actively betray their country they should be allowed to revoke their citizenship and ask them to leave. I have no real problem with that. A law like this shouldn't be abused but citizens of this country have a responsibility to treat the nation with respect too. You cannot actively work against your country, betray it and then claim you have the right to remain a citizen regardless. I don't think there are too many countries on this planet that would disagree with that.

The problem is defining sedition vs. opposing what a government is doing.
As an example, your country happens to be engaged in an illegal war, and your conscience tells you that you should be marching on the streets demonstrating against this war.
So, when does expressing your opposition to the war morph into actively supporting the opposition?
It could be easily said that protesting your country's actions is, by extension, providing comfort to the enemy.
Were the Vietnam protesters at Kent State who were shot and killed by the National Guard protesters or traitors?
If your government decides that vocal opposition to it's policies is sedition or treason, and it has the tools in place to revoke your citizenship and make you disappear into an unknown Gulag someplace, then you can expect a real chill on vocal opposition.
Which means the government can pretty much do whatever it likes, since it no longer has a rule of law to follow.
When these sorts of powers are given to an individual, such as a President having the power to decree an individual an enemy of the state, and have him killed, you no longer have a democracy, you have a dictatorship.

Right now, you have no problem with the present President having the power to strip you of your rights as a citizen and ship you off to political prison, but what happens if that president decides that he, and only he is capable of waging the war on terror? Would you be OK with him cancelling the election in November and then having the people who protested this taken out and shot for sedition?
This is the very real end game of laws like this, it has happened many times in many countries throughout history.
What makes you think your country is immune?

[magkelly]

What makes me think so? We're Americans. Yeah, we'll take a lot of political BS. But when we get pushed too far we push back. There's a mindset that Americans have that rebels against too much oppression. When finally pushed to the wall we will fight tooth and nail for it. In WW2 we sat on the sidelines probably for too long, but when Pearl Harbor happened that was IT.

America went to war and we kicked arse. There's a huge growing discontent with how the government of this country has been operating the past decade or two. People are sick of the status quo in DC. That's why they fell for Obama's carny act. They wanted a leader who they felt represented them who wouldn't just bow to the party line.

I think actually that the people of this country are getting way past fed up. They want things to change and if that ultimately means total government reform some day then I think it will happen and not in some distant century either. America has had some really bad leaders, some that have verged on being dictators, but someone really like Hitler, Stalin etc, they'd never stand for that. That's why this country came to be, and I don't think most Americans have forgotten that.

That's why people want to come here so badly. They believe in what America really stands for. Not in the government so much as the ideal of it. As bad as it can be here, we Americans still love and will fight for our freedom and our country if we get kicked down hard enough. Americans will take the BS, for a while, but not forever. We won't just stand there bewildered like some people do and allow a real dictatorship to happen. That's just not who we are. We may sometimes be slow to act, but it's the history of this country that we can and will act if necessary. We are all patriots to the core.

That's one reason that total gun bans will never fly here. Americans with guns see that as a personal liberty issue. The right to bear arms, to gather, to speak et all that's deeply ingrained in our collective character. We were told once before to sit down shut up and put down any weapons. Twice we ended up fighting a war with the country that said that to us. There are many countries all over the world where someone like a Hitler could and has walked in and taken over with little trouble. That wouldn't happen nearly as easily here. The government can only go so far if it wants to keep the goodwill of the people, and the goodwill of the people, in America, that's more than just an idea.

Piss the people off a little and you'll hear about it all right, piss them off beyond what they will take and you'll have a revolution on your hands and don't think the government doesn't know it. They don't want a Revolution or another Civil War. The lessons, the cost of those wars they are still fresh enough in all our minds to make any thought of us ever going there again repugnant but America it started out with a band of rebels. That rebel it's still in each and every one of us. May be buried deep but that "Don't Tread On Me" attitude is still very much in there...

I think the people in Washington DC are finally getting that. I think they're worried about what might happen if they don't get their act together soon. Rightly so. The idea is we elect them. They don't just rule over us. That's a president in the Oval Office, not a king, and if he should cross that line, become a true dictator? I seriously doubt even his own armed services would support such madness for long if at all. We came perilously close with Bush and the war in Iraq to that. The American people are so ticked over us being there and what it has done to the economy it's not even funny. Would there have even been a Tea Party movement before Bush and the war? I seriously doubt it and while I find some of what they do just absurd the fact that they exist at all is testament I think to how sick and tired all the BS has made us.

I am fully conscious of how different living here is compared to some places. There are countries in this world where just saying something like this could get me shot. But they're not America. They're not built on a core idea of true freedom and liberty. The Constitution, the Declaration, the Bill of Rights, we have those things and you just cannot put them aside. The government sure has and no doubt will continue to try to chip away at what's written there, but they'll never succeed in just tossing it all away and forming a fascist government.

Americans don't like kings or dictators. We get downright feisty when someone tries to be one, to rule over us. We left that all behind in the Old Country, and that's where it needs to stay. Me? If I ever met a ruling monarch I might shake his or her hand, as a courtesy, but you can bet I'd never bend my knee. I might live elsewhere someday. I might even come to love another country, but I'm still an American by birth and to the core. No matter how dorky my government gets or how embarrassed I get by their antics I'm still proud of my country, of what it actually stands for, that's still true and always will be. As bad as it can get here, I still know how lucky I am to be an American.

I'm not dissing the rest of the world. I'd like to think they all feel the same way about their country too, but I do think that America is something special. I'm not happy about how it's being run but I still think Americans are really an amazing people. This is a crazy great country. I'm very happy and proud to say I was born here. In my life I've met people from all over the world. They may not like the government but in general they like like and admire America, the people. There's always been this affection for us, even when they didn't like our politics. One of the things about this mess and the war that really irks me is that we've lost some of that affection, the goodwill. It's much harder now to be an American in some places. The door isn't as open as it was, and that really makes me sad. We're supposed to be the shining country that people look up to, the good example, not the big, bad tyrant that people fear....

[vonBaloney]

"Actively pursued"?

"Yes"

[les3547]

The current occupant of the White House has actively pursued such powers (beyond GWB), and I don't think it is because of religion and right-wing fanaticism. If you think only side of the aisle is a threat in this regard, you're dead wrong.

"Actively pursued"?

"Yes"

Evidence please that Obama has "actively pursued" such powers. Is it "actively pursuing" when right wingers attach a law to a bill Obama needed to sign to keep the economy from stalling?

[Wheatfield]

Evidence please that Obama has "actively pursued" such powers. Is it "actively pursuing" when right wingers attach a law to a bill Obama needed to sign to keep the economy from stalling?

Extending the Patriot Act, invading a (supposedly) allied nation and killing one of that nations guests (OK, it was Bin Laden, but still), summarily executing an American citizen without due process of law (Anwar Al-Awlaki). GWB started the process and passed the ball over to Obama, and Obama has been running with it.
Granted, this is only two incidents, but the fact that these two incidents happened (and the fact that there may be more that we don't know about) is somewhat disturbing.
It might just be a couple of one offs, but it might also be the thin edge of the wedge, so to speak. Generally, once a door is opened, it is almost impossible to close it again. Obama, and his predecessor have both ignored the Constitution to a degree when it comes to due process, and both ignored international law on several levels.
Why do you think there is a bit of noise outside of the USA to arrest Bush for war crimes? Had he been the president of a smaller, less powerful country, the odds are that someone (probably the USA) would have forced his arrest and trial at the Hague. The only thing keeping Bush out of jail is that no one crosses the USA and lives.

[Wheatfield]

What makes me think so? .....
<snip>
.....We're supposed to be the shining country that people look up to, the good example, not the big, bad tyrant that people fear....

Nice rant, but you are also the country that has, recently, used torture on it's enemies, invaded other countries in acts of aggression when those countries were not threatening your borders, has invaded other countries (supposedly allies) and killed their guests, and has summarily executed one of it's own citizens without due process.

You are also the country that recently passed a law that allows for permanent detention of foreign nationals that your President has decided he doesn't like with no guarantee of due process( National Defense Authorization Act), and is in the midst of passing a law that would allow citizens to be stripped of their citizenship (again, by Presidential decree) to make them accessible to the NDAA with no recourse of the due process guaranteed by your Constitution).

The simple fact is, your country has become the big bad tyrant that people fear, and is now in the process of passing laws that should make it's own people fearful, not writing out of blind faith internet odes to how wonderful their country is that don't apply to what their country is in the process of becoming.

I get the feeling that you are a person who is so flag blind that you don't see what is going on within your own country, write of fellow citizens who do as subversives and foreigners who see what is going on as America haters. There are a lot of people like that in your country, people who figure that as long as their little corner is safe and warm, everything must be fine.
These are the people who allow the Nazi Germanys of the world to become a thorn in everyone's side because they sit back thinking that their country can do no wrong, and that the "bad people" that their country is killing without due process of law must be deserving of their fate simply because their country can do no wrong, hence these "bad people" deserve it.

[jolepp]

Evidence please that Obama has "actively pursued" such powers. Is it "actively pursuing" when right wingers attach a law to a bill Obama needed to sign to keep the economy from stalling?

It would seem more like a case of "failing to actively oppose" to me. (e.g. National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, actually "failing to consistently oppose [and actively eliminate such powers]" might be even more accurate:Guantanamo Bay detention camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)

[HockeyDad]

What makes me think so? We're Americans. Yeah, we'll take a lot of political BS. But when we get pushed too far we push back.

I just said this same thing to my boys over dinner last night! We need to ensure we instill those values in our children.

These are the people who allow the Nazi Germanys of the world to become a thorn in everyone's side

invaded other countries in acts of aggression when those countries were not threatening your borders,

I don't recall the Nazis threatening our borders... should we have abstained?

has invaded other countries (supposedly allies) and killed their guests

Are you really pissed off about us killing Bin Laden?!? If his most gracious host country were truly an ally, they might have seen fit to arrest him. Am I wrong or was he an enemy of more than just ours?

You can make a "slippery slope" argument for the trend of recent laws stripping our rights and freedoms and you'd be right. However, trying to spin extreme circumstance cases into an argument claiming them to be the norm will only increase the "grain of salt" people take your arguments with.

We do need to be nervous, and we are, believe me we are watching and Magkelly is not just spouting a "nice rant", the pendulum will swing back towards freedom sooner rather than later or it will get a serious push-back by the citizenry.

[Wheatfield]

I just said this same thing to my boys over dinner last night! We need to ensure we instill those values in our children.



I don't recall the Nazis threatening our borders... should we have abstained?


Are you really pissed off about us killing Bin Laden?!? If his most gracious host country were truly an ally, they might have seen fit to arrest him. Am I wrong or was he an enemy of more than just ours?

You can make a "slippery slope" argument for the trend of recent laws stripping our rights and freedoms and you'd be right. However, trying to spin extreme circumstance cases into an argument claiming them to be the norm will only increase the "grain of salt" people take your arguments with.

We do need to be nervous, and we are, believe me we are watching and Magkelly is not just spouting a "nice rant", the pendulum will swing back towards freedom sooner rather than later or it will get a serious push-back by the citizenry.

Don't bother pulling WWII into it. There is no basis for doing so. At the moment, the nice rant is exactly that, because it doesn't pass the litmus test for where your country is going.
It doesn't matter if I agree that Bin Laden should have been killed or not, what is germane is how it was done. I don't care if Anwar Al-Awlaki was killed either quite frankly, but the way your government went about it should give anyone who believes in due process and the American Constitution pause.
I'm not claiming anything is "the norm", that is your strawman, what I am saying though is that these one off instances seem to be getting a little more frequent, and your government does seem to be passing a lot of scary laws that look a lot like laws that were passed in a certain European country in the mid 1930s.
The pendulum may or may not "swing back", but as long as people are merely watching, and doing nothing, the pendulum will continue to swing the direction it is going.
You admit that laws are being passed that strip you of your rights, and you do it so matter of factly that it appears you are seeing it as a normal progression, just SOP in the good old US of A.
If this is true, then you have a problem.

[les3547]

Extending the Patriot Act, invading a (supposedly) allied nation and killing one of that nations guests (OK, it was Bin Laden, but still), summarily executing an American citizen without due process of law (Anwar Al-Awlaki).

I decline from debating again whether killing Bin Laden and Al-Awlaki was "summarily" executing. I believe, as most of the civilized world does, that they were (well-deserved) wartime killings of combatants, and that there is no intent on Obama's part to take it beyond that purpose.

Why do you think there is a bit of noise outside of the USA to arrest Bush for war crimes? Had he been the president of a smaller, less powerful country, the odds are that someone (probably the USA) would have forced his arrest and trial at the Hague. The only thing keeping Bush out of jail is that no one crosses the USA and lives.

What does this have to do with the claim that Obama is "actively pursuing" similar actions? I too think Bush et al should be arrested for war crimes, but that is irrelevant to the objection I raised to the language of "actively pursuing."

It might just be a couple of one offs, but it might also be the thin edge of the wedge, so to speak. Generally, once a door is opened, it is almost impossible to close it again. Obama, and his predecessor have both ignored the Constitution to a degree when it comes to due process, and both ignored international law on several levels.

And I say you are failing to understand the path from where we were after eight years of right wing leadership (and decades of America seeing itself as a world-dominating power) to the far more humble place Obama wants to take us. This path toward being a responsible nation of the world is resisted every step of the way by the old guard who still have plenty of power; in fact, the "humble place" is precisely what freaks out right wingers (including the humility of accepting all people need basic needs met, not just the rich).

If Obama didn't have to work through the current system, if he could reform it instantly, I'm sure you'd see significantly more radical changes toward the America you'd like to see. Instead, often times he has to accept what advantage he can get, and often times sacrifice something to get it. That, I maintain, is a far cry from "actively pursuing."

[les3547]

It would seem more like a case of "failing to actively oppose" to me. (e.g. National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, actually "failing to consistently oppose [and actively eliminate such powers]" might be even more accurate:Guantanamo Bay detention camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)

I would say it differently -- that he goes first for what he can win. It doesn't mean he won't change such things if the time comes when he can win the battle for change. But in any case, I would still object to the language "actively pursuing."

[Parallax]

I decline from debating again whether killing Bin Laden and Al-Awlaki was "summarily" executing. I believe, as most of the civilized world does, that they were (well-deserved) wartime killings of combatants, and that there is no intent on Obama's part to take it beyond that purpose.

Whether it was an execution or assassination; and whether it was right, proper, and justified are two completely different arguments.
He did, in fact, order the killing of those to people.

[les3547]

Whether it was an execution or assassination; and whether it was right, proper, and justified are two completely different arguments. He did, in fact, order the killing of those to people.

I do not accept that execution or assassination are the only two ways to define what President Obama ordered. I firmly believe the action was combat against self-declared enemies of the US, enemies who had proven their war declarations were more than talk by killing or plotting to kill Americans. They made no secret of their intentions, there was no investigation necessary to prove their intent and actions. They chose a side of the war to be on, Al Qaeda, and then fought for it. They died in battle, and the President got rid of them without loss of US or Nato troops. Cutting off the head of the snake has been President Obama's strategy from the start. Scale down troops, go after leaders, cooperate with the world in handling terrorism (of course, then the right wing hawks accuse him of "leading from behind").

This is a far cry from "actively pursuing" policies that deprive Americans of their rights or due process.

[magkelly]

Nice rant, but you are also the country that has, recently, used torture on it's enemies, invaded other countries in acts of aggression when those countries were not threatening your borders, has invaded other countries (supposedly allies) and killed their guests, and has summarily executed one of it's own citizens without due process.

You are also the country that recently passed a law that allows for permanent detention of foreign nationals that your President has decided he doesn't like with no guarantee of due process( National Defense Authorization Act), and is in the midst of passing a law that would allow citizens to be stripped of their citizenship (again, by Presidential decree) to make them accessible to the NDAA with no recourse of the due process guaranteed by your Constitution).

The simple fact is, your country has become the big bad tyrant that people fear, and is now in the process of passing laws that should make it's own people fearful, not writing out of blind faith internet odes to how wonderful their country is that don't apply to what their country is in the process of becoming.

I get the feeling that you are a person who is so flag blind that you don't see what is going on within your own country, write of fellow citizens who do as subversives and foreigners who see what is going on as America haters. There are a lot of people like that in your country, people who figure that as long as their little corner is safe and warm, everything must be fine.
These are the people who allow the Nazi Germanys of the world to become a thorn in everyone's side because they sit back thinking that their country can do no wrong, and that the "bad people" that their country is killing without due process of law must be deserving of their fate simply because their country can do no wrong, hence these "bad people" deserve it.

Like I said in my "rant" my country is not my current government. I do see what's going on, very clearly, but "America" is the people not the government. FYI, we don't like what they've been doing in Washington anymore than anyone else does. A lot of us are flat out PISSED by it, in fact. There are people here like that but most Americans are not like that. We are very much a freedom loving, generous people and we're just as sick of the BS as our critics outside the USA are.

That's my point what we're SUPPOSED to be isn't what our government currently is. There is a growing divide between the people and the politicians. What they've been doing in America's name is sickening, a gross insult to her. What my country is built on, the concepts behind it's birth, I'm very proud of that, yes. But our current government is so corrupt that it almost shames me to be an American sometimes. I freely admit that. I don't like the people in Washington at all. I really wish I could overhaul the whole system but the way politics go in this country it's almost impossible to change anything. It's supposed to be government by the people, for the people, but lately that's just not been anything like what's really going on there.

I really wish the government was in line with the ideals of my country. It's a mockery of everything America is supposed to stand for that we are now among the tyrants of the world. We are supposed to be a good country. The people, the real "America" still is, but the goverment that's another thing entirely. I have hopes that someday maybe this mess will be cleaned up and we can once again be the world's friend instead of it's enemy but then again I never thought in my wildest dreams that things would be like this today.

Yeah, I love my country, but I am not blind to what's going on. Far from it. America has never been perfect but things were a lot better once. It breaks my heart sometimes the BS that they do in her name. The America I was born into? I'm not even sure it exists anymore. I'd like to think it does, that we can get back there, or at least make it better again, but I just don't know anymore.

For the record not all of us are placidly standing by just accepting the fact that our rights are being stripped away. There is quite a bit of unrest and active civil disobedience going on in this country. Changing the system from within, by voting that hasn't really worked. We're all frustrated and looking for other ways to let Washington know that we're not going to take it.