[stevewig]

Religion seems to play such a dominant role in the brew ha ha surrounding the current Republican Primaries that I wonder about the theory and practice of this Ideal?

[Parallax]

Politics trumps ideals, morals, ethics, integrity, common sense; just about everything other than money and power.

For further clarification, see my sig line. "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
It's one of my favorite Yogi Berra quotes.

[les3547]

Something I see is two fundamental kinds of religious people. One might be called "inwardly religious," and he/she is the person for whom religion is a very personal thing, and only shared if someone expresses interest. The other sort--outwardly religious-- thinks the world should believe as he/she does, and often tries to make that happen. You can guess which of the two are involved in trying to get religion into laws and the constitution, and most often where one finds hypocrites. And of the two main political parties, one of them consistently tries to win votes by playing up to the outwardly religious.

[dadipentak]

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
It's one of my favorite Yogi Berra quotes.

Love it!

[lesmore49]

Separate church from state.

[Wheatfield]

We pillory the Muslim world for having little or no separation of church and state, and yet the Right in America seems to think it's necessary for the President to not only be a Christian, but the right flavour of Christian. We won't get into the % of them that hate Obama for being a Kenyan Muslim, his skin colour is enough to make them even more mental than they already are.

[SpecialK]

"In God we trust" is on our money, and "One nation under God" is in the Pledge of Allegiance. Can't get away from it :-(

[Jasvox]

"In God we trust" is on our money, and "One nation under God" is in the Pledge of Allegiance. Can't get away from it :-(

Give all your money that reads "In God we trust" to me and problem solved!

Jason

[jeffkrol]

"In God we trust" is on our money, and "One nation under God" is in the Pledge of Allegiance. Can't get away from it :-(

"Under God" was added in the 50's....... sad it say it has not been eliminated yet.........

On July 11, 1954, just one month after the phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance,[10] the U.S. Congress enacted Public Law 84-140, which required the motto on all coins and currency. The law was approved by President Eisenhower on July 30, 1956, and the motto was progressively added to paper money over a period from 1957 to 1966.[6] In 1956 the phrase was legally adopted as the United States' national motto by a law passed by the 84th United States Congress.(Public Law 84-851)",[11] and the United States Code at 36 U.S.C. § 302, now states: "'In God we trust' is the national motto."

In 2006, on the 50th anniversary of its adoption, the Senate reaffirmed "In God We Trust" as the official national motto of the United States of America.[12] In 2011 the House of Representatives passed an additional resolution reaffirming "In God We Trust" as the official motto of the United States, in a 396-9 vote.[13][14] According to a 2003 joint poll by USA Today, CNN, and Gallup, 90% of Americans support the inscription "In God We Trust" on U.S. coins...................

Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves.. where are all the tea party Constitutionalists when you need them......or right, in church.......

my own 2 cents.. nothing "federal" should have any of this.. it should be left to the states...... which brings up a interesting point.

seems to me we could have "The Christian State of S. Carolina" for example but it would not be allowed to "discriminate" based on religion...or they would not be part of the US.

somehow we got it all sort of arse backwards........at least as I understand it.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel05.html
O/T.... sigh...............
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

In 1802 he returned to America where he died on June 8, 1809. Only six people attended his funeral as he had been ostracized for his ridicule of Christianity

In this cartoon, Paine sleeps on a straw pillow wrapped in an American flag, inscribed "Vive L' America." In his pocket is a copy of Common Sense. On the headboard are his two "Guardian Angels": Charles James Fox and Joseph Priestley. An imp drops a French Revolutionary song as he flees through a window, draped in curtains decorated with the fleur-de-lis. Confronting Paine are the spirits of three judges who will try him. The presiding judge declares that Paine will die like a dog on the gallows. .............

Thomas Paine had passed the legendary limit of life. One by one most of his old friends and acquaintances had deserted him. Maligned on every side, execrated, shunned and abhorred – his virtues denounced as vices – his services forgotten – his character blackened, he preserved the poise and balance of his soul. He was a victim of the people, but his convictions remained unshaken. He was still a soldier in the army of freedom, and still tried to enlighten and civilize those who were impatiently waiting for his death. Even those who loved their enemies hated him, their friend – the friend of the whole world – with all their hearts. On the 8th of June, 1809, death came – Death, almost his only friend. At his funeral no pomp, no pageantry, no civic procession, no military display. In a carriage, a woman and her son who had lived on the bounty of the dead – on horseback, a Quaker, the humanity of whose heart dominated the creed of his head – and, following on foot, two negroes filled with gratitude – constituted the funeral cortege of Thomas Paine

In October, 1992 the legislation was signed into law (PL102-407 & PL102-459) by President George H. W. Bush authorizing the construction, using private funds, of a memorial to Thomas Paine in "Area 1" of the grounds of the US Capitol. As of January 2011, the memorial has not yet been built.

[jeffkrol]

On a more humorous side note............

"Sarah Palin spoke out Thurdsay against Alaska Airlines` decision to stop including prayer cards with its meal trays. The airline announced the move a day earlier, ending the tradition that lasted for 30 years.

I`m afraid of flying and I`d rather not have a prayer card included with my meal, it makes it seem too much like a prisoner`s last meal. Instead of a prayer card, I`d rather have a small card listing the qualifications and experience of the pilot and co-pilot.

Sarah Palin Furious At Alaska Airlines' Decision To Drop Prayer Cards

[grhazelton]

Interesting that the Pledge of Allegiance was written by the Christian Socialist Francis Bellamy in 1892. He was an American Baptist minister, back when Baptists were strong advocates of the separation of church and state. See Pledge of Allegiance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Baptists in the early days of the country were concerned about the still-prevalent use of government funds for established churches, see Mr Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists.Baptists in the history of separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Southern Baptists seem to have forgotten this aspect of Baptist history.

I've always felt that "E Pluribus Unum" was a far better motto, since "From Many, One" well expresses the inclusive ideal of the United States. "In God We Trust" excludes agnostics, atheists, and free-thinkers.

The majority of the Founders would be appalled by the current efforts to turn the US into a "Christian" nation. Mr Jefferson, for example, listed on his tomb stone "Author of the Virginia Declaration of Religious Freedom and Founder of the University of Virginia." A reading of the Constitution, the operating manual of the US, no where mentions God, Jesus, or religion except to state that no religious test will be required for holding public office. Yes, the Declaration cites "The Creator," but this is in keeping with Enlightenment thought. And the Declaration is a position paper, intended as a polemic justifying rebellion, not as the map of the country to be.

Home | Americans United is devoted to fighting attempts to inject religion of any creed into government supported institutions. Their site is worth a visit.

[les3547]

I like "In God We Trust." Personally, I don't see that phrase as religious. God is generally seen as the "creator," and our creator can be anything from a highly evolved and vast conscious field to pure physics (Einstein and Hawkings, for example, used the term "God" in the latter way). Whatever created us, the way it did so gave us a "nature" (i.e., the rules relied on for creation). We therefore trust God when we trust that harmonizing with the underlying nature of creation is always the best way to proceed.

[grhazelton]

I like "In God We Trust." Personally, I don't see that phrase as religious. God is generally seen as the "creator," and our creator can be anything from a highly evolved and vast conscious field to pure physics (Einstein and Hawkings, for example, used the term "God" in the latter way). Whatever created us, the way it did so gave us a "nature" (i.e., the rules relied on for creation). We therefore trust God when we trust that harmonizing with the underlying nature of creation is always the best way to proceed.

Yours is a rather sophisticated view. My feeling is that the vast majority of US citizens would view the motto as religious, as a statement that the country endorses belief in a supreme being, hardly pure physics a la Einstein and Hawkings. Your statement "God is generally seen as the 'creator'".... highlights the problem. If what you state is true then the US is endorsing a particular theological position. This I find indefensible.

[Ratmagiclady]

I like "In God We Trust." Personally, I don't see that phrase as religious. God is generally seen as the "creator," and our creator can be anything from a highly evolved and vast conscious field to pure physics (Einstein and Hawkings, for example, used the term "God" in the latter way). Whatever created us, the way it did so gave us a "nature" (i.e., the rules relied on for creation). We therefore trust God when we trust that harmonizing with the underlying nature of creation is always the best way to proceed.

I simply don't think people take that kind of view of it: it's more like territory-marking for those who want to claim America's meant to be a monotheists-only-club, or even just for certain kinds of Christians. ...especially given how that was placed for Cold War purposes of claiming a contrast with 'Godless Communism' ...just like the phrase 'Under God' was used to divide 'One Nation Indivisible:' I think it makes a poor motto for a pluralistic nation, ...whereas E Pluribus Unum serves as a reminder that we *are* a nation of many different peoples.

I don't have a problem with the Deist language we find appearing in important founding documents, etc, but particularly when it comes to Church/State issues, it's in fact being used to try and insert specific kinds of *Christianity* into elevated positions over others in our nation. It shouldn't take much of a look at how this notion is used for theocratic ends in politics to see that it's naive to assume people are taking an 'Enlightenment' attitude about it. In actuality, it's used by too many to claim, 'This is a Christian Nation, so Christians own equality, so CHristians have the right to withhold it or take it away.'

[grhazelton]

RML has stated the problem well.

Few people will take the nuanced view so well expressed by les6547 but will rather assert the essentially theistic, specifically Christian nature of our national enterprise. I'd suggest that if you find this overstated you might want to visit some of the Christian Dominion sites as described in Dominionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. These folk are scary. If they had their way the sorts of discussions we enjoy here on the Pentax Forum could result in prosecutions for heresy.