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01-30-2012, 08:39 PM   #1
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Reality Vs Idealism....

I'm putting this one here because I suppose my politics has something to do with it in a round about way. Yesterday I had to deal with a really hard situation. One that really put having certain ideals and my own sense of sympathy very much at war with each other. In retrospect it was a pretty awful decision to have to make and I'm still not quite sure that I am entirely comfortable with the position I had to take. I don't however see that I really had much of a choice but to say "no" really.

I took my folks shopping yesterday at Walmart. While I was in the pharmacy a young lady, a 16 year old she said, walked up to me and she asked me to buy her a Morning After Pill. She had the money in hand, and was clearly distraught. But they apparently wouldn't allow her to buy it because legally she wasn't old enough to buy it without parental consent in this area. (You have to be 17 here and no one will go there unless you are. Even Planned Parenthood will send you home without it if you're under age.) While I was sympathetic I still had to say "no" to her request something that pretty much reduced her to tears.

Politically speaking I'm not much of a conservative and I really do believe that abortion is a very personal choice one each woman needs to make for herself. While I am not pro abortion for myself except in perhaps a life threatening situation I do support the continued legality of such procedures and medications for practical reasons. I don't believe outlawing such things will change the fact that some women will decide they have to go there and I don't see what good restricting women to the use of back alley abortionists will do. It's a statistical fact that in countries where abortion is currently illegal the % of women who die having such procedures is much higher than in countries that allow it as a supervised medical procedure and while some people may think that such women deserve to take their chances and potentially die I definitely don't.

I'm therefore a political liberal when it comes to there being things like easily available birth control. I have and will continue to support a woman's right to control over her body et all. That being said I just could not just buy that pill for that young lady and go on my merry way. Whatever you might think about it the Morning After Pill is a heavy duty medication. One that should be taken properly under the supervision of a trained adult who knows what could happen in various circumstances. I feel at the very least it should be taken with a good friend present to hang out with you for a few hours after the pill is taken to make sure that if something goes wrong and the pill taker can't speak for themselves there will be someone there to make sure the person taking it does get medical treatment and that any medical personnel involved are aware that they may be dealing with someone who has taken it.

A 16 year old kid (and I have doubts she was even that old honestly) taking it in secret I'm not too comfortable with that scenario. Fully grown women face risks taking such medication and there's not too much data out there as to what it could do to a growing girl. Even regular birth control pills carry with them certain risks. In my mind while I understand why many women want the MAP available over the counter I'm not entirely crazy about it being so easily available. Not because it bothers me morally but because there could be complications and I just think that maybe having a medical professional in the background somewhere or at the very least a trained counselor is a pretty good idea.

In the end I counseled her to talk to her mother despite her fears, go visit the folks at Planned Parenthood, or at the very least to find some adult in her own life that could be more available to her like a guidance counselor or something. I could tell my answer didn't thrill her. At that moment all she wanted was help and a way out of whatever situation she was in. As upset as she was I suspect it would have been too late or that maybe the reason she was so desperate was because she might have been forced or date raped perhaps. I don't know. She simply wasn't that forthcoming, there wasn't time to talk more privately, and I didn't feel that an aisle in Walmart was the place to talk about it particularly since her mother who's input on the subject she clearly dreaded wasn't all that far away apparently. Wrong time, wrong place, not my place really either.

Part of me thinks I did the right thing. I'm not her parent but I don't know that as a parent I'd want a perfect stranger interfering in such a situation. Legally I'd be totally culpable besides if something did happen to her, something she definitely wasn't thinking much about. I really hate the idea though that I really couldn't do much more than suggest that she talk to her mother and/or get counseling though. I feel like she really needed help and that I couldn't really provide it bothers me. Today all day I've been very much dwelling on that young lady, on her tears, on my reply, wondering how she is, if she came out of it okay....

Part of me knows I did the right thing, the only thing I could legally and responsibly do in such a situation. Part of me just fears that she might have done or will do something desperate because she didn't get the help she needed. I really don't know what else I could have done. There is no way she'd have even told me her name let alone had me speak to her mother for her. She was fully prepared to bolt if her mother even came near or if I made any request of her to speak to her. Bottom line I'm really worried about her and really wondering what I'd have done if it had been my child approaching someone else that day for such a thing.

I'd like to think that my own child would have been able to come to me about anything but I'm realistic enough to know that even with the most open mother-daughter relationships there's a time in every girl's life where she'll go anywhere, do almost anything to keep from potentially disappointing her own mother. My own mother was about as open as a woman of her generation could be about birth control and sex. She had her shy moments but I always felt that if it came down to it I could go to her and talk about such things, get help that way if needed, that while she might not have been happy if I'd gotten myself in a situation like that she'd ultimately put my well being above anything else. Clearly this young teen felt she didn't have that option. But I also had to wonder if it was because she really didn't or because she was just maybe too afraid of what her mother might say to want to go there.

I remember how magnified my own reaction to some things was back than, how much I feared my parents response to certain things and how overwrought I could get thinking about their reaction versus how upset they really were about such things. My own parents would not been happy had I come to them and told them I was potentially pregnant. For all that my Mom and Dad were open minded about sex and birth control et all their own child being pregnant would have been another matter. My Mom pretty much let me know early on that I'd better be ready mentally and physically before I went there and prepared to protect myself and not get pregnant vs not being responsible, and yes, though she would have not been thrilled to be asked she'd have gotten me BCP's if I had asked. But that was my Mom, she was a realist in her own way about that kind of thing. My Dad? He'd have been decidedly less pleasant about it probably. He'd have probably just grounded me till I was 18 and put me on an even shorter leash, Mom's protests notwithstanding, smile.

I feel for this kid, and my conscience is pretty clear about my decision but I just can't stop thinking about her and her situation and wishing she'd had a better option than to ask some stranger in a Walmart to help her. Apparently because she wasn't of legal age the folks at the local PP weren't all that helpful to her on the phone. The pharmacist turned her right down. About the only option she had in the end was to wait it out or admit she might be a bad situation and talk to her parents which apparently in her mind she felt she couldn't do.

This is one of those no win scenarios that I think I am going to be dwelling over for the rest of my life. One of those "Kobayashi Maru" tests that life just throws at you once in a while. (Star Trek reference, look it up. There's a wiki on it if you're wondering what in the heck I am talking about and you're one of the few people on the planet who hasn't actually seen STII: The Wrath of Kahn.) I hope I did okay. I can't see what else I could have done, but I must admit I'm still dwelling on it a lot today...

What would you have done?...


Last edited by magkelly; 01-30-2012 at 10:04 PM.
01-30-2012, 08:58 PM   #2
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Wow. I really don't have a clear cut answer to this myself. I felt compelled to respond primarily to communicate the tremendous empathy I feel for both you and this child. If it is of any solace whatsoever, I fail to see how anyone could rationally say you were in any way wrong in your actions. I hope you can find some peace in this matter, I know it would stay with me for quite some time as well. I hope that communicating about this has helped you.

btw: kudos for the the "Kobayashi Maru" reference, well done
01-30-2012, 09:38 PM   #3
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Tough situation. I agree with your position on this issue very much so. The only thing I might have done different if I were in your shoes would be to go to store security and let them know that there is a girl soliciting total strangers to buy the MAP so they could stop her and be in a position to force the parental intervention she was so desperately and riskily trying to avoid. There is a 99% chance she is more afraid of her parents' bark then their bite and she is kind of working against the clock...


I am so happy that my oldest daughter won't be a teenager for another decade.
02-01-2012, 05:14 AM   #4
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OMG, what a terrible choice to make. You did the only thing you could do. There's not enough info to make a good decision, so the only thing to do is to protect yourself. Supplying such medication to a minor is illegal in virtually every community.

Although I agree 100% with your choice, I have to admit that I don't know what I would have done if I would have been in your shoes. Sitting here comfortable behind my desk, taking the time to overthink this case the conclusion is simple: refuse her the medication. But if I was unprepared and suddenly confronted with such a decision, and the emotions that come with it, I would have had a very hard time to say no. Chances are that I would have given in to the request and regret it a lot later, are very high. And with my luck, there will be sequrity camera images of me giving the medication to her too. So this dilemma was offered to the correct person!

02-01-2012, 05:36 AM   #5
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Mag,

I have to agree that you made the only decision you could. As far as I know, buying the pill and then giving it to the girl would constitute a felony. Don't really think you want to go there do you? I feel sorry for the girl too but, even under the premise of being a helpful and empathetic human being, giving someone a controlled drug is a far cry from giving them $5 to buy lunch.

Mike

p.s. btw, to have beat this Kobayashi Maru, you'd have had to have found a way to get the girl the help she needed (which doesn't necessarily mean getting her the pill) without getting her into more trouble or getting yourself thrown in jail. I fear this one would have been beyond even Star Fleet's finest... However, if she took your advise and ponied up to her parents, you might just have pulled it off. Here's hoping!!!

p.p.s. It's doubtful that I'd have turned her into store security though in spite of the fact that it was probably the right thing to do. My conformity quotient wouldn't run that high in this specific situation. It's not like the poor girl was asking people to fill a prescription for morphine.

Last edited by MRRiley; 02-01-2012 at 05:45 AM.
02-01-2012, 08:17 AM   #6
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Well, for one thing, despite conservative propaganda, the 'morning after pill' does not in reality constitute 'abortion,' for one thing, however you feel about *that,* even if the law's been made to treat it as such in too many places. I think it's another case where these attempts to impose theology on people's lives and the laws end up putting too many people in a position where they have to *lie,* which is hardly what I consider 'morality.' You didn't create that situation, but it does suck.

It's a case in point why this kind of decision doesn't belong in state hands: certainly turning the girl in to authorities who'd be obligated to act on those politics regardless of the real-life situation is absolutely not going to help matters. I obviously had other kinds of problems when I was that age, but there's no way it would have been safe to have parents involved, (And, well, forget about the clergy,) especially not if *this* legal and political situation existed. I'd have been pretty much on my own, and I was already in the working world leading a much more 'adult' life than I usually feel like I am, these days. (And, well, I *was* the designated contraceptive-buyer despite not being sexually-active, myself. This actually went well into my college years, actually: big social inhibitions about doing the responsible thing. But, hey, having a queer kid ain't *all* bad: certain kinds of trouble are a lot less likely. Pressure to 'prove you're straight' notwithstanding. ) Fact is, a lot of people would have been pretty boxed-in in that situation at my age, even if you *were* the only one around capable of making the call. And that's kind of how people end up in situations where they're pressured to let on like they were forced or something. It's a bad kind of law that forces so many involved to *lie.*

The fact is that you can't assume some 'ninety nine percent chance' that the kid's parents finding out would magically be OK... Chances are it's *not* OK, actually, if that has to be forced by law or some bystander. You just don't know what situation you'd be intervening in. (But if they could talk to their parents on this, they wouldn't be coming to you as a stranger. You *might* be able to encourage them to talk to someone closer, but the only safe assumption is that that was a desperation move on her part. Not all desperation is as desperate as it seems, especially to a teen, but in your position, all you could do is say, 'Honey, you need to stop and think. Who can you trust best, that you know? Then trust them.' And hope to the Gods that works out. )

What I'd do is probably ask if there's some adult in her life she *can* trust with stuff like this, and if not, maybe suggest she take her chances with a school counselor or something similar. At least to get her through the situation safely. Unfortunately, the real-life options are sharply-limited by the politics in a lot of places.

Accordingly, doing nothing was hardly the worst call you could make, there. The whole idea of these 'anti-choice' laws is in fact to force people's hands regardless of the reality.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 02-01-2012 at 11:31 AM.
02-01-2012, 10:53 AM   #7
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As RML said, the morning after pill isn't an abortion as no implantation has taken place. It's not something to take lightly as there are some side effects, but I must admit to having my bacon saved a couple of times by them - condoms sometimes split - as no method of contraception is 100% effective.

However, 17 as a minimum age to buy for yourself? Really? Here it's 14 and for good reason, first and foremost that young people are often not experienced or confident enough to always make the right decision or to use contraception correctly. Hell, one of those bacon-savings was only last year and I'm 36 so hardly new to condoms and one still broke on me. No problem, a quick trip with the girl to a pharmacist, £25 and apart from a GUM check-up no need to worry (I take sexual health very seriously, even relatively minor diseases like chlamydia or herpes can put a serious dent in your whole life and happiness - my ex-wife is sterile from the former). The important thing though is that you behaved in accordance with your own morals and were good enough to have a very kind and sensible chat with her about talking things over with her parents. Providing others with prescription drugs isn't something I'd be too happy to do either; there's a reason doctors and pharmacists study as long as they do.

In short I think that, presented with a difficult situation unexpectedly like that, you behaved perfectly and that you should be proud of yourself.

02-01-2012, 11:21 AM   #8
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What a sad situation.

Is there no person who can legally give this girl the med she needs to prevent an unwanted pregnancy?
02-01-2012, 11:29 AM   #9
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This is why I don't go to Walmart.

But on a more serious note, tough choice and it sounds like you made the right one.
02-01-2012, 11:32 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
What a sad situation.

Is there no person who can legally give this girl the med she needs to prevent an unwanted pregnancy?
Of course, but she'll have to inform her parents and she probably doesn't want to do that.
02-01-2012, 12:20 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Of course, but she'll have to inform her parents and she probably doesn't want to do that.
If she hasn't already, it's unlikely to be a matter of 'want to.' In the real world, as opposed to the ideological one, if you can't speak openly with your parents about something like this, you probably need that reproductive freedom *very badly.*

If you want kids to 'abstain,' you don't subject them to unwanted pregnancies and possible abuse.

(If you really want kids to wait till they're older, take a lesson from the Pagans and subject them to a circle of old biddies telling them how wonderful and sacred it all is and of course you don't need to be clandestine about it. You'd be surprised how fast they want to get back to sword practice. But they do get the message. A lot better than kids do when it's about fear and lies and shame and trying to get teenagers to stuff a cork in it and 'do battle with 'sin.' Frightened and ignorant and ashamed people don't make the smart decisions about things like this, you know, and that goes for young people as well. Instead, you can say, "This is for adult people, it's precious, and it's *yours, you have to take responsibility for it.* When you grow into the fullness of it, you'll be ready. For now, you're being a kid. And that's not a bad thing, either." (Seems that that 'being a kid' thing isn't such a raw deal when you aren't treated as either a passive vessel/temptress or some 'rapacious beast that must be controlled' or whatever.) Some things don't change, though: kids value 'adult things' they're entrusted with a lot more than they do the same things, in some paradigm where even adults are treated like children about them. Rather, it can be very much part of the cycle of life we can all be present in.

I don't think you *really* have to be Pagan for that, but I have to say that by the time I got off the street and especially into some more-established community, (When I was raising my own stepdaughter, I was teaching the same things as best I could, but I was really winging it, in many ways. ) ...I saw some of those impressive, impressive young individuals, (Who, despite some claims to the contrary, were a lot more sexually-continent and self-possessed about it than I ever saw in Catholic school) in just such a situation, and I was like. "Goddess. We really are onto something, here, aren't we?" )


Kids trusting their folks like that just isn't something that you can impose with law or dogma, (or claiming percentages) though, never mind by stacking up the consequences in hopes it'll scare people into line. Scared/ignorant people *don't* 'stay in line.' They get drunk or are pressured and manipulated or whatever and the results are *not good.* (And having the law take a punitive/controlling mindset about it does *not* undo that: it makes it worse.)

If kids *can* trust their folks (And themselves) like I mention, and as maybe many would want, you don't *need* a law for it. If they *can't,* no law (or 'Commandment' ) will make it otherwise.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 02-01-2012 at 12:29 PM.
02-01-2012, 12:27 PM   #12
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The problem with the Right's views of sex in this regard is that, as you say, it makes it sinful and dirty. Teenagers love to rebel, and if their parents are saying something is wrong, they'll try it just because.
02-01-2012, 12:32 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The problem with the Right's views of sex in this regard is that, as you say, it makes it sinful and dirty. Teenagers love to rebel, and if their parents are saying something is wrong, they'll try it just because.

More than that, though, if the 'Religious Right' or various churches *didn't exist,* what *still* needs doing about issues of sexuality is *to value it.* People take care of things they value. I daresay it's unnatural not to, and not valuing sexuality leads to dysfunction of the same kind: repression or wantonness/agression: ...just two sides of the same bad penny.
02-01-2012, 01:13 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
If she hasn't already, it's unlikely to be a matter of 'want to.' In the real world, as opposed to the ideological one, if you can't speak openly with your parents about something like this, you probably need that reproductive freedom *very badly.*
I only said she didn't want to, nothing about the reasons why. Rant noted, but don't direct it at me...
02-08-2012, 10:51 PM   #15
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This had nothing to do with my own sense of morality or any dislike I might have for the MAP. In fact I think it's fine given in the right circumstances by a health professional to a person legally able to have it. I don't really view it as being all that different from taking a double dose of birth control pills for several days after an "oops" moment, which is something that you can also do under those circumstances. That's what The Pill does every day. The MAP is just a stronger version of The Pill. I feel you shouldn't do it though without giving your GYN a head's up in case something happens. It's not likely, but even regular birth control pills can have serious side effects, particularly when you're still growing, and particularly if you're double dosing for some reason. Little things like blood clots, very rare, but it has happened.

I view the MAP as a pretty serious medication, one I just can't see handing to a young teenager sans any parental or counselor type involvement. Plus yeah, it is a crime to give a minor that medicine like that. Like I am going to do it right on camera at Walmart so her parents can sue me blind later and/or have the police charge me with a felony? I don't think so. I did feel very bad for her but that wasn't possible. Days later I'm still thinking of her and hoping she is okay. I did suggest she talk to someone at school, someone adult that she could trust. I really hope she did take that advice. My biggest worry is that she went home and did something scary. I know I couldn't have helped her. Legally it could have been a nightmare but I still can't get that kid out of my head...
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