[ihasa]

Did I miss something? Isn't the UK a Monarchy with a state sponsored religion? (I do recall William had to ask his father "Which religion?" when he enrolled in school.)

I don't know if that's true but I wouldn't be surprised! It is rather illustrative of the British approach to religion, where the future head of the church isn't even sure what religion he is supposed to belong to...

While the UK is a monarchy with a state sponsored religion, generally religion is left as a matter for individuals and intrudes on our lives in a seemingly more marginal way than it does in the USA. I had got used to the idea that the UK was a de facto secular state (rather the opposite of the USA's de facto theocracy!) but religious groups are increasingly flexing their muscles.... it's alarming. It's also deeply hypocritical of them to claim they are a persecuted minority when they have, what, 26 bishops in the House of Lords?

I would guess that, in full possession of all the facts, most Brits would agree with the Judge in this case that prayers should not form a formal part of the meeting, and should be held before or afterwards. But the story has been spun by certain newspapers to try and represent one atheist preventing the other councillors from praying at all.

I would argue that having prayers in any way connected to such a meeting - even if held beforehand - would exclude and stigmatise anyone choosing not to take part, so I would banish them entirely.... I'm reminded of the situation in the US military, where it cannot legally be compulsory to join in with prayers... but it would be unwise to single yourself out by not taking part...

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Last edited by ihasa; 02-13-2012 at 03:27 PM.

[RobA_Oz]

.... I'm reminded of the situation in the US military, where it cannot legally be compulsory to join in with prayers... but it would be unwise to single yourself out by not taking part...

That's a new twist on the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy: Don't Pray, Don't Say.

[Ratmagiclady]

QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
""The OP is in the UK. It is a "Christian Nation", ruled by a Monarch who is head of the Church of England. ""

True Boris... I missed that... What I get for skimming the headline... And you are right... in the UK the CofE does have secular authority... a situation that led inexorably to the separation of church and state in the United States...

Still, it reminds me of kind of a favorite scene from a novel series I like: you've got sort of Catholics and Pagans in an alternate future saying various versions of 'grace' and there's an older dude saying, 'I was raised C of E, myself, all this sincerity gives me hives.'

The problem really *isn't* the prayers, though, never mind some inability for people to pray without anyone noticing, (Gods know I know how to do *that:* if this was about praying I know how to fake an obligatory paternoster while saying something else in English and Latin both, never mind pledge allegiance without swearing to the Under God' part, regardless of how even those bits of compliance are taken to reinforce 'silent majorities.' ) ... the problem is about people 'marking territory' and claiming social dominance and/or special religious authority. Seeking to stigmatize and exclude some citizens as "other," and "other" as "bad." That's *especially* bad *if* you want an official church, (to be about religion) never mind if you're sworn to uphold religious Liberty.


Gods know England probably ain't washed all the bloodstains off the *last* time that was tried, and that's *exactly* what our American Founding Fathers were *intent on *not* doing. For any reason. Ever. * When our laws were written over here. Cause that bloodletting and horror wasn't some abstract rewriteable history to them... It was last week.



Just like for people of *my* faith group trying to be full Americans and getting death threats and worse from Christianists over speaking up in town meetings is *this week* over here.

I don't think you want that over in the UK.... Even if the Daily Mail is looking to be your Fox News. Really. (You may as well ask the Boston Herald to sell you real estate.)


Christianists can be such *whiners* about some things. I've been knocked ....Well, call it TKO... no, actually, that was properly-unconscious. during 'moments of silence,' (Apparently for not moving my lips enough:what *happened* was I took some time to try to actually try and center myself and got shoved out of my seat. ) and it didn't actually stop me 'praying,' ...shut off everything else, I suppose, and it was undeniably disorienting, at least upon rousing, but I can't say it actually impeded my spirituality in any way. (Actually, to this day I do my best spirituality *outside* my body, anyway, All it did was shut the *classroom* off. And give me another Godsforsaken concussion. I didn't even report that one. Nor of course did the teacher trying to make public school kids pray: meanwhile, Third grade and I'm already walking off head injuries. From experience. ) ) Maybe this kind of thing just ain't *about* ability to pray. *Lady* knows it ain't about 'souls,' these demonstrations of public piety. Maybe.... It's about something else. .

[magkelly]

The thing about Britain is yeah, they're supposed to be Christian, Church of England and all that, but when you really look at the population of the place and who makes it up, what religions they have, what's growing, what's dying out, and at the stunning lack of interest in traditional churchgoing it's questionable at this point as to how "Christian" they are at this point. People still go to church for weddings and funerals but they're not nearly as attached to them as they once were. People will say they are Christian if asked, but ask them if they actually go to church every Sunday? Or really believe in all that? The numbers can go down sharply.

It's like most places the younger people coming up. They don't want the formality, the rules. There's sort of make your own spirituality thing going on all over the world and it's really changing the face of religion on the planet today. I personally don't see traditional religions lasting more than an another 500 years as they are. They're going to have to change a lot if they want to see anything but more and more people leaving. With all the trouble in the RCC and a general lack of love for organized religion in the younger set in all the denominations, not just the Catholic ones it's going to be a real challenge for the monotheistic religions to keep all their churches open let alone filled.

[ihasa]

The thing about Britain is yeah, they're supposed to be Christian, Church of England and all that, but when you really look at the population of the place and who makes it up, what religions they have, what's growing, what's dying out, and at the stunning lack of interest in traditional churchgoing it's questionable at this point as to how "Christian" they are at this point. People still go to church for weddings and funerals but they're not nearly as attached to them as they once were. People will say they are Christian if asked, but ask them if they actually go to church every Sunday? Or really believe in all that? The numbers can go down sharply.

Funny you should say that - new poll out today:

Poll Conducted for Richard Dawkins Foundation Finds British Christians Think Religion 'Should Be Kept Out Of Public Policy' - Urban Christian News

Poll Conducted for Richard Dawkins Foundation Finds British Christians Think Religion 'Should Be Kept Out Of Public Policy'

British Christians do not think religion should have a special influence on public policy and display low levels of belief and practice, research suggests.
Despite identifying themselves with the religion, most turn out to be overwhelmingly secular in their attitudes on issues ranging from gay rights to religion in public life, the Ipsos Mori poll found.

Almost three quarters (74%) agreed that religion should not influence public policy, while only about one in eight (12%) thought it should, the survey found.

Six in 10 respondents who self identified as Christians (61%) agreed that homosexuals should have the same legal rights in all aspects of their lives as heterosexuals, and those who disapproved of sexual relations between two adults of the same sex (29%) were greatly outnumbered by those who did not (46%).

Less than a quarter of Christians (23%) believed that sex between a man and a woman was only acceptable within marriage.

The findings have been published after the Christian owners of a guesthouse who refused to allow a gay couple to stay in a double-bedded room lost an appeal over a ruling that they discriminated against the men.

The Ipsos Mori poll, conducted among people who said they would be listed as Christians in the latest census, found more opposed than supported the idea of the UK having an official state religion, with nearly half (46%) against and around a third (32%) in favour.

The same pattern was repeated with the question of seats being reserved for Church of England bishops in the House of Lords, which 32% of respondents opposed and 25% supported.

Meanwhile there was strong support for a woman's right to have an abortion within the legal time limit, with more than three in five (62%) in favour and only one in five (20%) against.

Demonstrating an apparently weak faith, just over a quarter (26%) said they completely believed in the power of prayer, with more than one in five (21%) saying they either did not really believe in it or did not believe in it at all.

Almost half (49%) had not attended a church service in the previous 12 months, apart from on occasions such as weddings, funerals and baptisms.

Some 16% had not attended for more than 10 years, and a further 12% had never attended at all.

The research also found that at the time of the 2011 census, just over half (54%) of the public thought of themselves as Christian, compared with almost three-quarters (72%) in the 2001 census.

.

[boriscleto]

The Rude Pundit on a recent case involving prayer at a school graduation ceremony. Newt Gingrich tried to make it a political issue so the Judge used his opinion to destroy his career.

The Rude Pundit

"What This Case Is Not About
The right to pray."

Biery goes on, "Any American can pray, silently or verbally, seven days a week, twenty four hours a day, in private as Jesus taught or in large public events as Mohammed instructed." He offers footnotes from the Bible and the Quran to back him up.

And then he lays out exactly what "The Real Issue" is: "Does the United States Constitution allow a government entity elected by the majority to use its power to tax and its agents and employees to support and promote a particular religious viewpoint not held by a minority?" That seems pretty damn, umm, what's the word? Noncontroversial?

He ends with a personal statement:
"To those Christians who have venomously and vomitously cursed the Court family and threatened bodily harm and assassination: In His name, I forgive you.

"To those who have prayed for my death: Your prayers will someday be answered, as inevitably trumps probability.

"To those in the executive and legislative branches of government who have demagogued this case for their own political goals: You should be ashamed of yourselves."

For big time fun, though, check out Appendix II, which, swear to God, will make you come with joy, as Biery ****s conservatives with a rhetorical strap-on by recounting the history of religion in a succinct, sarcastic, and utterly exhilarating way. After saying that Homo sapiens are the only creatures that know they're going to die, Biery writes, "Not wanting their existence to end, Homo sapiens developed a multitude of theories and hopes, encompassed in thousands of religions, of how they can avoid simply returning to the Earth from when they and other species came." Oh, yes, it does go on like that, talking about torture and war and the Constitution. It's the best judicial porn of the year.

On page 4, Biery has an intentional misspelling that should be the death knell of the career of one politician: "While religious institutions bestow many blessings and try to alleviate suffering, those acts of Grace are newtralized by religious Homo sapiens who exhibit an historical and continuing pernicious and pervasive tendency to kill other humans and confiscate the property of those, sometimes even within the same religion, who do not believe as they do."

****, the Rude Pundit needs a cigarette.