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02-24-2012, 08:42 PM   #1
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SO you think you might be safe in Canada...think again

From today's Star

Man arrested after his daughter draws a picture of him holding a gun... and says he uses it to shoot bad guys and monsters...

I'm not sure what the problem was, shooting the bad guys or shooting the monsters... I really hate it when people shoot monsters. We have so few of them.

02-24-2012, 09:12 PM   #2
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What bugs me is that the police can't be bothered doing some quiet investigation. They have to go in and arrest.

I guess the guy involved should consider himself lucky that he didn't try to defend himself verbally, he'd likely be dead by now or severely tased.
02-25-2012, 12:51 AM - 1 Like   #3
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Canada used to be much like the U.S., only 30 years less crappy. Then, the gap closed to maybe 20 years less crappy. As things stand now, I think the gap has closed to about 10 years difference.

Within the decade we will be the U.S., especially with the government we have now and a psychopath like Harper at the helm. The police brutality, the institutionalized paranoia, the government selling itself to corporations, the increased "security", the for profit prisons... It's all coming here, too.
02-25-2012, 01:29 AM   #4
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“From a public safety point of view, any child drawing a picture of guns and saying there’s guns in a home would warrant some further conversation with the parents and child,” said Alison Scott, executive director of Family and Children’s Services

"When a teacher asked her who the man was, the girl replied, “That’s my daddy’s. He uses it to shoot bad guys and monsters.”

"The school principal, Steve Zack, said a staff member called child welfare officials because the law requires them to report anything involving the safety or neglect of a child"

"Waterloo Regional Police Insp. Kevin Thaler said there was a complaint from Forest Hills Public School that “a firearm was in a residence and children had access to it. We had every concern, based on this information, that children were in danger.”

“From a public safety point of view, any child drawing a picture of guns and saying there’s guns in a home would warrant some further conversation with the parents and child,” said Alison Scott, executive director of Family and Children’s Services"

1. executive director of Family and Children’s Services->( believes/interprets the law) would warrant some further conversation (by the police?)
2.
the girl replied, “That’s my daddy’s. He uses it to shoot bad guys and monsters..staff member called child welfare officials->(she believes a 4 year old, or not, BUT)
3.
the law requires them to report anything involving the safety or neglect of a child->
4.
there was a complaint from Forest Hills Public School that “a firearm was in a residence and children had access to it. We had every concern, based on this information, that children were in danger.”

1+2+3+4+some police perhaps acting a bit overzealous, or according to their training and instructions? = selling news papers, as it is impossible for anybody but the police, and all of them, to be at fault AGAIN!


02-25-2012, 02:01 AM   #5
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My problem is that everyone seemed to act so 'gung ho'.

Maybe it did need to be looked at but that could have happened without all the dramatics unless virtually everyone thought that this was their chance to be heard.
02-25-2012, 02:20 AM   #6
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Ok, perhaps I am a bit biased, being a former police officer (about 23 years ago). It just gets to me that everybody is constantly attacking and accusing ALL police officers, in forces the world over, as if the way some bad cops behave, are the norm, which it is not. "A Kitchener father is angry at police", not police officer so and so, but "the police"

Why do we never hear of any good work done by police, specially on this forum? Is it all about selling news papers, and bad news probably selling more than good news?
02-25-2012, 02:58 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by altopiet Quote
It just gets to me that everybody is constantly attacking and accusing ALL police officers, in forces the world over, as if the way some bad cops behave, are the norm, which it is not.
There are three main groups of cops:
  1. Those that use their position to commit abuses against the citizenry, or to personally profit.
  2. Those that help to cover up the crimes of group 1.
  3. Those that don't get involved directly, but look the other way entirely, with regards to groups 1 and 2.
Whether groups 2 and 3 behave this way due to fear of reprisal from other cops, or of losing one's job, it doesn't matter. It's still complicity, even if by inaction.

Where are those good cops again? I'll tell you: They're either dead, in jail, or in the vast majority of cases, in other jobs. Just about every time you hear about a whistle blowing cop you also hear they were forced out, one way or another.
02-25-2012, 03:28 AM   #8
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David, it seems you're sure there are not many good cops in Canada any more, if that is so, what do you see as a practical solution to the problem?

Corruption is on the increase world wide, so probably also in police forces, but in the end it is of no use to just keep on bashing the "police", without at least giving viable solutions to the problem, helping to remove the bad cops from their jobs.

02-25-2012, 04:14 AM   #9
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I don't see any practical solutions. I think the situation will continue to get worse, and we'll continue on the same old cycle of abusive government regimes backed up by abusive law enforcement agencies and military forces for a long, long time. The ever increasing technology that these agencies have access to is a noteworthy and insidious difference from past cycles. Even armed rebellion or civil war won't do it. These are just part of the cycle.

It all boils down to one thing. Greed. As a species we just get out of control with our greed. If you have any bright ideas about how to mobilize "good people" or those less afflicted with this all consuming greed, by all means share. As long as most of the population thinks it is wrong to act against the abusers in society, as long as they perpetuate the garbage about how using whatever means may be necessary to remove them from power somehow lowers them to the level of their abusers, nothing changes.

Even when regime change occurs somewhere, the new regime is rarely more beneficial to society, or at least not for long. The same corruption, the same greed that is in our nature will creep in, and the bottom line is that "good people" don't end up in power, don't want power, and are not tolerated by those who do want it.

I think you're a bit off base expecting anyone who complains about the status quo to be able to provide solutions. One doesn't need to know a solution to see that something is a problem, and with complex issues like these, it's entirely possible that there simply is no practical solution.
02-25-2012, 05:00 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Philoslothical Quote
One doesn't need to know a solution to see that something is a problem, and with complex issues like these, it's entirely possible that there simply is no practical solution.
Quite true, but what do one achieve by constantly bringing the subject to light, if there is no possible solution, except to vent frustration about it, or is it that there is still hope that by discussing the problem, a solution might be found?
02-25-2012, 07:26 AM - 1 Like   #11
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It's funny, in Toronto during some of the labour protests... the police sent provocateurs, their own officers in civilian dress, into the crowd to incite violence, some of which is reported as violence perpetrated by the crowd itself, because the police know the whole crowd of protesters will be tarnished at least in terms of public perception by the actions of a few. IN fact, in recent Toronto and Montreal demonstrations, demonstrators have turned on these provocateurs and forced them to retreat back behind police lines. So when the police are guilty of using this habit of people, it's apparently to be taken advantage of, for some reason only to discredit labour unions, when the police union is probably the biggest bunch of thugs anywhere,... but if an actual police officer acts like a bully, arrests two people and ships some kids off to children's aid because of a 6 year old's drawing, then this habit of tarring the whole group with the same brush is a bad thing... too funny. Sometimes, what goes around comes around.

If the principle and child welfare people actually believed this girl, they should have sent the Humane Society to pick up the monsters, and the morgue to pick up the dead bad guys. They were very selective in which parts of the fantasy they chose to focus in on. If this were the US false arrest charges could be brought. That actually isn't against the law in Canada.

The other part of this is the ingrained belief within children's aid in Canada and other places to believe children don't fantasize or lie. ANyone who works in the system knows children lie all the time if it serves their purposes. Despite what CAS may say, discretion is needed. CAS does thing "by the book". IN other words, they are complete morons. For some reason, only morons ever get to write the book. The books are written to put the blame on someone else, usually.

I've worked in the school system and I know the kinds of people who do these things. They basically have jobs, because people like me surround them and limit the damage of their insane over reactions. I've had administrations where you pretty much had to keep information from the administrators, because once they got into a situation it would just go out of control, and the end result was always the same , hours of paper work for me. The teacher made a very bad choice in reporting this, must have been a rookie, she'll be smarter next time. She'll probably need counselling, not because of the drawing, but because of the reaction to it.

As for the police...once the classroom teacher got the ball rolling , they could have handled it better, but they had to do something. I'm guessing what they did probably resolved the situation in the least amount of time. There's this whole chain reaction that happens when a class room teacher makes a bad decision. Other people have to get involved, and it can get really messy. This is a great example.

I can tell you, there have probably been a lot of guns drawn in school classrooms that didn't go this way, because the teacher involved was more experienced or had better judgement. I hope this teacher learned something...

Last edited by normhead; 02-25-2012 at 10:57 AM.
02-25-2012, 10:13 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
there have probably been a lot of guns drawn in school classrooms
You mean pictures of guns have been drawn . . . .
02-25-2012, 10:51 AM   #13
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QuoteQuote:
You mean pictures of guns have been drawn . . . .

Ya, what he ^ said.
02-25-2012, 12:19 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Philoslothical Quote
Canada used to be much like the U.S., only 30 years less crappy. Then, the gap closed to maybe 20 years less crappy. As things stand now, I think the gap has closed to about 10 years difference.

Within the decade we will be the U.S., especially with the government we have now and a psychopath like Harper at the helm. The police brutality, the institutionalized paranoia, the government selling itself to corporations, the increased "security", the for profit prisons... It's all coming here, too.
Give me a break.
02-25-2012, 12:20 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It's funny, in Toronto during some of the labour protests... the police sent provocateurs, their own officers in civilian dress, into the crowd to incite violence, some of which is reported as violence perpetrated by the crowd itself, because the police know the whole crowd of protesters will be tarnished at least in terms of public perception by the actions of a few. IN fact, in recent Toronto and Montreal demonstrations, demonstrators have turned on these provocateurs and forced them to retreat back behind police lines. So when the police are guilty of using this habit of people, it's apparently to be taken advantage of, for some reason only to discredit labour unions, when the police union is probably the biggest bunch of thugs anywhere,... but if an actual police officer acts like a bully, arrests two people and ships some kids off to children's aid because of a 6 year old's drawing, then this habit of tarring the whole group with the same brush is a bad thing... too funny. Sometimes, what goes around comes around.

If the principle and child welfare people actually believed this girl, they should have sent the Humane Society to pick up the monsters, and the morgue to pick up the dead bad guys. They were very selective in which parts of the fantasy they chose to focus in on. If this were the US false arrest charges could be brought. That actually isn't against the law in Canada.

The other part of this is the ingrained belief within children's aid in Canada and other places to believe children don't fantasize or lie. ANyone who works in the system knows children lie all the time if it serves their purposes. Despite what CAS may say, discretion is needed. CAS does thing "by the book". IN other words, they are complete morons. For some reason, only morons ever get to write the book. The books are written to put the blame on someone else, usually.

I've worked in the school system and I know the kinds of people who do these things. They basically have jobs, because people like me surround them and limit the damage of their insane over reactions. I've had administrations where you pretty much had to keep information from the administrators, because once they got into a situation it would just go out of control, and the end result was always the same , hours of paper work for me. The teacher made a very bad choice in reporting this, must have been a rookie, she'll be smarter next time. She'll probably need counselling, not because of the drawing, but because of the reaction to it.

As for the police...once the classroom teacher got the ball rolling , they could have handled it better, but they had to do something. I'm guessing what they did probably resolved the situation in the least amount of time. There's this whole chain reaction that happens when a class room teacher makes a bad decision. Other people have to get involved, and it can get really messy. This is a great example.

I can tell you, there have probably been a lot of guns drawn in school classrooms that didn't go this way, because the teacher involved was more experienced or had better judgement. I hope this teacher learned something...
I see....
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