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02-27-2012, 12:29 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Did I read that correctly, Gene, $2 an hour basic wage before tips?

The minimum wage here is about $11, and any tips waiters earn for good service are on top of that. To be honest I hate the idea of obligatory tipping, the idea that a customer can punish you through your wage packet if for whatever reason - bad day, problems with the chef, personal issues - your service isn't 100% up to par.
As Boris pointed out, it looks like my memory was off by $0.13, and it is $2.13 per hour. U.S. Department of Labor - Wage & Hour Divisions (WHD) - Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees It is also unfair because problems in service are often not the fault of the server.

02-27-2012, 12:41 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
age of the employee and money earned are not qualifying factors for defining wether a job is 'real' or not. your view is plain ignorant.the job is a part of a service that we all depend on at times. some more than others, a few maybe never, but most of us all at some point. thus, it is as real a job as the guy building the buildings and houses we live and work in, or the vehicles we drive. you take away all the restaurants, all the grocery store employees, etc. and see just how fast the jobs become real to people like you who poorly define what is 'real' in the world of work. western society depends on the people at the bottom doing these 'non-real' jobs a lot more than we depend on most of the 'real' ones, and you damn well know it. so stop ignorantly judging people you don't know and start showing respect for the people that do work that you clearly view as beneath you. if the jobs weren't 'real' we wouldn't be depending on them so much every day of our lives. you know, unless you don't eat at restaurants or shop at grocery stores, or department stores, or home improvement stores, etc, etc. right? cause you don't ever need these things and the people who are employed there often making barely more than minimum wage, right?
You are just as guilty of deriding bankers as people that don't have "real jobs."

QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
I would consider the waitress to have a more 'real' job than mr. banker.
Since this is Newport Beach, my guess is that this banker was either with Pimco or Pacific Life these are both firms which facilitate lots of transactions within this country and without whom, the restaurant owner might not have been able to finance getting started. My paycheck is deposited into a bank, I use credit cards for most of my purchases, I use automated payments through the banks, sometimes I even go into a bank to do a transaction, I interact with banks much more than I do with restaurants and every time I go to a restaurant a bank is involved in the transaction.
02-27-2012, 12:44 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
As Boris pointed out, it looks like my memory was off by $0.13, and it is $2.13 per hour. U.S. Department of Labor - Wage & Hour Divisions (WHD) - Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees It is also unfair because problems in service are often not the fault of the server.
They might not be the direct fault of the server but if they don't keep up a good rapport with the cook staff or if they don't tip out to their busboys, runners, or bartenders they are indirectly causing the poor service you experience.
02-27-2012, 12:54 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
You are just as guilty of deriding bankers as people that don't have "real jobs."



Since this is Newport Beach, my guess is that this banker was either with Pimco or Pacific Life these are both firms which facilitate lots of transactions within this country and without whom, the restaurant owner might not have been able to finance getting started. My paycheck is deposited into a bank, I use credit cards for most of my purchases, I use automated payments through the banks, sometimes I even go into a bank to do a transaction, I interact with banks much more than I do with restaurants and every time I go to a restaurant a bank is involved in the transaction.
I didn't express contempt for any bankers in general, I expressed contempt for this particular one. you say that as if you assume I have a 'real' job. and you clearly worded this as if its typical only of people who don't have 'real' jobs to deride people who have 'real' ones. by the way, the definition of career, isn't exclusive to a job. a person can have a career without having a job, thus your definition of a 'real' job as having a career, is simply nothing more than blatant attempt to judge people you do not know.

as for the banker and his role, I never stated that banking institutions aren't a necessary entity within our society (although I think that may be debatable) nor did I ever say that a bankers job was not important, but we aren't talking about the employees in the bank doing the actual work,(most of which don't make much money, in fact I work in the supermarket business and make a fair bit more than he average bank employee) we are talking about a CEO, who's actual title as a 'banker' is questionable and his role within the industry being very little, to the point of non existent in terms of the banking industry getting along. don't confuse the industry and the people who are actually doing the work with a snobby CEO, and don't confuse my contempt for people like this, for the banking industry and the people who actually do the jobs (most of which in this country, could hardly be considered a 'career' by your definition)

02-27-2012, 01:25 PM   #35
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These responses are going the extreme other way -- no one can ever be criticized now? Plenty of people are in crappy jobs because they haven't made an effort to get a better one, improve their skill set, etc etc. Is it unreasonable to expect a little gumption out of an intelligent adult? If your adult son or daughter was working as a minimum wage cashier with no future potential and no other plans -- when you know full-well they could be doing much better -- wouldn't you tell them to get off their butts and get a "real job"? Almost no adult person that is not physically disabled (and even then) and has at least average intelligence is forced into keeping a dead-end job for very long. The vast majority of people choose their positions in life and society, one way or another...
02-27-2012, 01:38 PM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
These responses are going the extreme other way -- no one can ever be criticized now? Plenty of people are in crappy jobs because they haven't made an effort to get a better one, improve their skill set, etc etc. Is it unreasonable to expect a little gumption out of an intelligent adult? If your adult son or daughter was working as a minimum wage cashier with no future potential and no other plans -- when you know full-well they could be doing much better -- wouldn't you tell them to get off their butts and get a "real job"? Almost no adult person that is not physically disabled (and even then) and has at least average intelligence is forced into keeping a dead-end job for very long. The vast majority of people choose their positions in life and society, one way or another...
nobody, that I have seen and myself included are criticizing in the way you allude to. my whole point is that these 'crappy' jobs are jobs and are as real and as necessary for the continued way of life as we currently live it in this country as the 'real' jobs, so by my ideals, we should show these jobs and the people who do them more respect. this isn't the 50's anymore and a high school diploma, even a college diploma isn't any sort of guarantee that you can ever be successful. its a lot harder these days to have that 'career' and our dependence on all of these bottom rung jobs in our every day lives certainly hasn't decreased. as to your hypothetical, no if it were my child and they were happy doing what they do then who am I to tell them to get a 'real job'. if they weren't happy, would as a parent do everything I could within a reasonable expectation to help them get one they like more. being 'successful' in a career isn't the only path in life and its not the only way to happiness. which is more important on a personal level than anything. a job is a job. a banker, a politician, a scientist, a waitress, a grocery store clerk. this are all jobs and all roles that we depend on on a daily basis. thus they are all real, and as a society that depends on one another to get by, we should show them all respect.
02-27-2012, 02:36 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
nobody, that I have seen and myself included are criticizing in the way you allude to. my whole point is that these 'crappy' jobs are jobs and are as real and as necessary for the continued way of life as we currently live it in this country as the 'real' jobs, so by my ideals, we should show these jobs and the people who do them more respect. this isn't the 50's anymore and a high school diploma, even a college diploma isn't any sort of guarantee that you can ever be successful. its a lot harder these days to have that 'career' and our dependence on all of these bottom rung jobs in our every day lives certainly hasn't decreased. as to your hypothetical, no if it were my child and they were happy doing what they do then who am I to tell them to get a 'real job'. if they weren't happy, would as a parent do everything I could within a reasonable expectation to help them get one they like more. being 'successful' in a career isn't the only path in life and its not the only way to happiness. which is more important on a personal level than anything. a job is a job. a banker, a politician, a scientist, a waitress, a grocery store clerk. this are all jobs and all roles that we depend on on a daily basis. thus they are all real, and as a society that depends on one another to get by, we should show them all respect.
As far as my example -- of course they are unhappy, you can assume that. You're focusing on the job itself and not the person filling it. All jobs are "real" in the sense you're talking about, of course -- even if no one is doing them but they are available. But you're just twisting the definition of what people really mean when they say "real job" to be meaningless (since it encompasses all jobs, just say "job"). When someone tells someone else to "get a real job", it is not just a random comment, i.e. all janitors need to get real jobs! (Focusing on the job and not the person.) There is always the given that the person with the job is bitching about it or complaining they don't have enough money or whatever. The remedy? Get a real job! If you don't like where you are, do something about it. Even in a bad economy, hardly anyone is truly forced into doing low-level unskilled work that they hate (for very long, in the short short-term it may be the only option) -- they are artificially limiting themselves because they simply aren't using their imagination or don't want to put out the effort or will only consider a higher-level job if it "is in their field" or whatever. If you are inches away from being homeless, you don't have a lot of options, but anybody that isn't totally dirt poor and has a minimum support network (i.e. has family they can stay with if need be, etc etc) can find or create themselves a decent situation in fairly short order. (In the U.S. anyway.)

Last edited by vonBaloney; 02-27-2012 at 02:58 PM.
02-27-2012, 02:51 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
as to your hypothetical, no if it were my child and they were happy doing what they do then who am I to tell them to get a 'real job'. if they weren't happy, would as a parent do everything I could within a reasonable expectation to help them get one they like more. being 'successful' in a career isn't the only path in life and its not the only way to happiness.
What if it was your child's fiance who was stocking shelves or bussing tables? As I said, these kinds of jobs are acceptable for a single young person without substantial responsibilities but when they start getting older and want to realize some grown up ambitions like getting married, having children, and providing them with a stable housing situation the dead end job will retard their ability to accomplish them and to maintain healthy relationships.

02-27-2012, 02:58 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
As far as my example -- of course they are unhappy, you can assume that. You're focusing on the job itself and not the person filling it. All jobs are "real" in the sense you're talking about, of course -- even if no one is doing them but they are available. But you're just twisting the definition of what people really mean when they say "real job" to be meaningless (since it encompasses all jobs, just say "job"). When someone tells someone else to "get a real job", it is not just a random comment, i.e. all janitors need to get real jobs! (Focusing on the job and not the person.) There is always the given that the person with the job is bitching about it or complaining they don't have enough money or whatever. The remedy? Get a real job! If you don't like where you are, do something about it. Even in a bad economy, hardly anyone is truly forced into doing low-level unskilled work that they hate (for very long, in the short short-term it may be the only option) -- they are artificially limiting themselves because they simply aren't using they imagination or don't want to put out the effort or will only consider a higher-level job if it "is in their field" or whatever. If you are inches away from being homeless, you don't have a lot of options, but anybody that isn't totally dirt poor and has a minimum support network (i.e. has family they can stay with if need be, etc etc) can find or create themselves a decent situation in fairly short order. (In the U.S. anyway.)
you make some pretty serious assumptions. how do you know the waitress is unhappy in her job? how do you know all people who work these jobs are unhappy? you seem to assume they are. you also seem to allude to the fact or at the very least are defending this mans action of telling this waitress to 'get a real job', when you have no proof or even any evidence that the waitress is even unhappy or is looking to have a better job. (I would think she might, but wether she is or nit is actually irrelevant to the argument) your point is based on so many assumptions about the people who work these jobs and you seem to think they all fit into the same category. my whole point is that as a society we depend on these things and thus the people who do the jobs. I myself work in the supermarket business. I work two jobs, as I'm also a freelance photojournalist. I bet if you were to take away all those minimum wage grocery store jobs, a whole lot of people in the country would suddenly find themselves in desperate need of all these services that you and mikemike clearly consider to not be 'real jobs', and thats only one example. thus for no matter how low on the job ladder they may be the jobs and the the people who do the jobs demand respect, for at the very least providing you and everyone else with the ability to live your life how you do and take it all for granted. an this is completely non dependent upon wether the employees working these jobs are unhappy or not. thats why they are just as 'real' as any 'career'. a job should be judged by what it contributes to the fabric of society and that waitress likely contributes more than that judgmental and clearly very rude CEO, who I think we both can agree had no reason to tell her to get a real job at least not by your expressed ideas. unless you can prove that the waitress did or said something that showed she was complaining about her job in some way.
02-27-2012, 03:08 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
What if it was your child's fiance who was stocking shelves or bussing tables? As I said, these kinds of jobs are acceptable for a single young person without substantial responsibilities but when they start getting older and want to realize some grown up ambitions like getting married, having children, and providing them with a stable housing situation the dead end job will retard their ability to accomplish them and to maintain healthy relationships.
the average pay for a regular bank employee is about 13 dollars an hour. the average pay for the guys who stock the shelves at the supermarket I work at is 12 dollars an hour. their immediate manager 20 dollars an hour. they have full medical, dental, prescription coverage, two weeks of paid vacation and the ability to at any time move up into management and with enough hard work can make six figures as a unit manager without ever having attained a high school diploma. if my childs fiancé or fiancée stocked shelves and that person made my child happy, and my child understood full well the persons financial situation going into the marriage, I would be 100% supportive of my childs decision because I would raise my child to be strong, smart and above all else to know how to chase happiness in this world. a job is not the end all be all of success in life. however, none of this is really relevant because as I've stated before, my whole point is that we depend on these jobs and the people who do them, everyday or nearly every day of our lives and as such we should show them all respect for the contributions they give to society, and some of you clearly are not showing that respect.
02-27-2012, 03:13 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
These responses are going the extreme other way -- no one can ever be criticized now? Plenty of people are in crappy jobs because they haven't made an effort to get a better one, improve their skill set, etc etc. Is it unreasonable to expect a little gumption out of an intelligent adult? If your adult son or daughter was working as a minimum wage cashier with no future potential and no other plans -- when you know full-well they could be doing much better -- wouldn't you tell them to get off their butts and get a "real job"? Almost no adult person that is not physically disabled (and even then) and has at least average intelligence is forced into keeping a dead-end job for very long. The vast majority of people choose their positions in life and society, one way or another...
I call BS on those presumptions, which in no event justify contemptuously *not paying them* based on your opinion of them working for you.

I made a post the end of the last page about what some of those 'real lives' dismissed by certain cons saying 'Get a real job, I'm not paying you for your work,' ...like that somehow justifies something.

'Almost no.' Yah, right. Wake up to reality, man.

Even most dead-end minimum wage jobs that just want warm bodies, they a) Don't want smart people and b) don't want people who've ever been poor or unemployed, never mind homeless, disabled, and/or otherwise off the grid, you know. They run *credit checks* these days.


More of that 'Get a job,' (But not here, we 'can't' ) or, 'If you don't like this treatment, get a "real job:" it's your fault we rich people treat you this way, you must just not want better, whatever you do.' ...Of course, they won't *themselves* hire people for 'real jobs' even if they've *got* the degrees they worked and went into debt for.

More of that "You "chose" how we're treating you."

I call BS, man.
02-27-2012, 03:27 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
you make some pretty serious assumptions. how do you know the waitress is unhappy in her job? how do you know all people who work these jobs are unhappy? you seem to assume they are.
No I don't. Just that it is my example and I say so. They wouldn't be complaining about their jobs if they were happy with them.

QuoteQuote:
you also seem to allude to the fact or at the very least are defending this mans action of telling this waitress to 'get a real job', when you have no proof or even any evidence that the waitress is even unhappy or is looking to have a better job. (I would think she might, but wether she is or nit is actually irrelevant to the argument)
I have no idea what went on between the patron and the waitress. I have no reason to defend or criticize either of them since we don't know what happened. I think it is reasonable to assume *something* happened, though, unless the guy is just a nut that is offended by wait staff in general and would rather shuttle his own food from the kitchen. And whether he is crazy or sincere or had a reason or didn't doesn't matter to the general point -- it was just the jumping off for the discussion.

QuoteQuote:
your point is based on so many assumptions about the people who work these jobs and you seem to think they all fit into the same category.
No I do not.

QuoteQuote:
my whole point is that as a society we depend on these things and thus the people who do the jobs.
I don't disagree in the slightest. It has nothing to do with my point.

QuoteQuote:
I myself work in the supermarket business. I work two jobs, as I'm also a freelance photojournalist. I bet if you were to take away all those minimum wage grocery store jobs, a whole lot of people in the country would suddenly find themselves in desperate need of all these services that you and mikemike clearly consider to not be 'real jobs'
Please don't put words into my mouth. I do not "clearly consider" any such thing. You are mistaken. As I said earlier, it is not about the job, but the person and their attitude. It could be any job.

QuoteQuote:
, and thats only one example. thus for no matter how low on the job ladder they may be the jobs and the the people who do the jobs demand respect, for at the very least providing you and everyone else with the ability to live your life how you do and take it all for granted. an this is completely non dependent upon wether the employees working these jobs are unhappy or not. thats why they are just as 'real' as any 'career'. a job should be judged by what it contributes to the fabric of society and that waitress likely contributes more than that judgmental
Yes, I get it. You've said it several times. I AGREE! It still has nothing to do with my point, which is not even restricted to "low-level" jobs but it likely primarily focused there.

QuoteQuote:
and clearly very rude CEO
It is not clear at all. Maybe the waitress called him a scumbag and spit in his food in front of him. Is he still rude then to react negatively? As I said, given the lack of evidence I have no reason to praise or to criticize either one of them.

QuoteQuote:
who I think we both can agree had no reason to tell her to get a real job
How can we possibly agree that he had no reason since we don't know what happened? Maybe he's a big jerk, maybe not. Let's say he is if that makes you happy. It doesn't matter.

QuoteQuote:
at least not by your expressed ideas. unless you can prove that the waitress did or said something that showed she was complaining about her job in some way.
Of course I can't prove anything about this particular situation, and neither can you. But certainly there are rude waitresses in the world just as certainly as there are rude customers. Maybe this guy doesn't put up with rudeness. I can't fault him for that. Or maybe he is a scumbag that just likes to degrade people. I don't know.
02-27-2012, 03:32 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
I call BS, man.
So do I. If the victim mentality suits you, you're welcome to it. But what did it ever get anyone?
02-27-2012, 03:37 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Outside of the U.S., where a server may be paid as little as $2 per hour before tip, it is a much smaller portion of the server's income.
Minimum wage for that kind of job in OZ is about $25/hr... I can't fathom why the US doesn't have better wages and get rid of tipping.

Well I guess I can.. it makes it easier to hire people and places less responsibility on the employer.
02-27-2012, 03:44 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Even in a bad economy, hardly anyone is truly forced into doing low-level unskilled work that they hate (for very long, in the short short-term it may be the only option) -- they are artificially limiting themselves because they simply aren't using their imagination or don't want to put out the effort or will only consider a higher-level job if it "is in their field" or whatever. If you are inches away from being homeless, you don't have a lot of options, but anybody that isn't totally dirt poor and has a minimum support network (i.e. has family they can stay with if need be, etc etc) can find or create themselves a decent situation in fairly short order. (In the U.S. anyway.)
I think you are the one in a fantasy world..........and there are plenty of statistics and real world situations to prove you wrong. AND let's suppose everyone is "fulfilled" who does clean the toilets or wait on a bankers cheap arse.



I would argue that if your fantasy world exited the above chart would look much different.........For every game there is a winner and a loser and is not capitalism just a game???

Personal income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


less than $50k
75.40%.............

Seems to be 3/4 of the country are self imposed losers...........
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