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03-01-2012, 09:26 PM   #1
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The tail starts to wag it's dog

Israeli PM demands Obama commit to military action if Iran sanctions fail | World news | guardian.co.uk
QuoteQuote:

Israeli PM demands Obama commit to military action if Iran sanctions fail

Binyamin Netanyahu pressing for explicit threat from US ahead of crucial meeting with Obama next week in Washington
How does it feel to be Israel's bitch?

03-02-2012, 12:08 AM   #2
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What an awkward situation. Iran has said it desires the extinction of Israel. I believe they are crazy enough to bomb Tel Aviv as soon as they have even one nuclear weapon. A pre-emptive strike is fully justified. Waiting until one is nuked before acting is not going to prove anything. Attempted murder is a crime, prevention is better than cure.
03-02-2012, 01:04 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by fisheye freak Quote
What an awkward situation. Iran has said it desires the extinction of Israel. I believe they are crazy enough to bomb Tel Aviv as soon as they have even one nuclear weapon. A pre-emptive strike is fully justified. Waiting until one is nuked before acting is not going to prove anything. Attempted murder is a crime, prevention is better than cure.
I personally do not think that Iran is going to nuke Israel although they would like that all Jews just dissapear and that the Arabs take over Jerusalem and Palestine. The reason for not nuking is simple: Tel-Aviv is close to Jerusalem and many other holy places (holy even in islam). Destroying and contaminating the holy places of their own beleif is something that not even the worst fundamentalist are ready to do.

Even for Iran, nuclear weapons have mainly psychological contest, more of a threat than actual usefullness. However Iran is going to be much tuffer nut to crack if it has nukes than if it doesn't have. In that case they can always try to smuggle nukes and place them on some strategic places (what about DC, or Philly shipyard) and fire them off when they are cornered. As you know there are no holy places for islam in the new world.

On the othe hand, possesing nuke would also give them more confidence and more power in case they would decide to close the arabian sea, thus cutting some 20% world oil production.
03-02-2012, 01:08 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by fisheye freak Quote
Iran has said it desires the extinction of Israel.
Only according to the New York Times, who claim the Iranian President Ahmadinejab said Israel should be 'wiped off the map'. However here are divided interpretations on what he said, particularly since the Farsi of his speeches never mentioned the word 'map'.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

QuoteOriginally posted by fisheye freak Quote
I believe they are crazy enough to bomb Tel Aviv as soon as they have even one nuclear weapon.
Ahmadeinajad has repeatedly emphasized that building a nuclear bomb is not the policy of his government. He has said that such a policy is "illegal and against our religion."

The Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has also said as recently as this week :

"we are not seeking nuclear weapons because the Islamic Republic of Iran considers possession of nuclear weapons a sin ... and believes that holding such weapons is useless, harmful and dangerous".
Iran's supreme leader denies Tehran is seeking nuclear weapons | World news | The Guardian

QuoteOriginally posted by fisheye freak Quote
A pre-emptive strike is fully justified.
So Pearl Harbour was justified too? As was Barbarossa?

If Israel is a threat to Iran, I guess that also justifies a Iranian pre-emptive strike on Israel? Pre-emptive strikes are hard to justify, especially on the basis of fear, propaganda - and poor information.

QuoteOriginally posted by fisheye freak Quote
Waiting until one is nuked before acting is not going to prove anything.
The USSR, USA and China have managed to survive for 60 years without nuking each other. Mortal enemies Pakistan and India have also managed to wait for decades without nuking each other.

Having nukes seems to be a very successful way, if history is any guide, of cooling down hot-heads and discouraging warmongers.

I think people need to take a deep breath and not let right-wing hawks like Bibi speak for Israel.

03-02-2012, 03:50 AM - 1 Like   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
How does it feel to be Israel's bitch?
Surely you jest. If it wasn't for the funding and support USA, Israel would have been wiped from the map decades ago.

As for being anyone's bitch, why does your money have the Queen's face on it?

Jason
03-02-2012, 04:13 AM   #6
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Nevermind whose face is on whose money - who has more influence over who? The Queen over Canada, or Israel over the USA? AIPAC has a huge influence over US policy, as do the 'Evangelical Christians' who believe Israel's existence fulfills scriptural prophecy (some of them seem to see the Israeli's as pawns in their biblical end-game)...
03-02-2012, 04:20 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Nevermind whose face is on whose money - who has more influence over who? The Queen over Canada, or Israel over the USA? AIPAC has a huge influence over US policy, as do the 'Evangelical Christians' who believe Israel's existence fulfills scriptural prophecy (some of them seem to see the Israeli's as pawns in their biblical end-game)...
this is a good point, because its the only reason the United States and in particular the right wing and christians in general care so much about is israel. it makes no sense to strategically align ourselves and risk war with other nations over biblical prophecy. but the truth is, thats exactly how we have arrived where we are. this si at the heart of our unwavering alliance with the state.

also, I must give props to Jasvox. hell of a comeback.
03-02-2012, 04:55 AM   #8
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Netanyahu and Obama have never had warm relations and as far as I am concerned, am happy about that. The fact he (Netanyahu) wants to command the USA what to do regarding the protection of his own country and risk the beginning of WW3 is just absolutely mind-numbingly stupid. Obama wont fall for it. In times like these, I am even MORE thankful we dont have a right-wing dolt (see Romney, Santorum, Gingrich, etc) in office who would certainly go along with Netanyahu and his screws-loose policies.

At some point, USA would be best off to let them go and turn it's interests inwards instead of another 50 years of battling in the sand to cover someone elses loud mouth, whiny, bratty actions. Can you imagine the complete paradigm shift in USA culture if that were to happen?

Jason


Last edited by Jasvox; 03-02-2012 at 07:23 AM.
03-02-2012, 04:57 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Nevermind whose face is on whose money - who has more influence over who? The Queen over Canada, or Israel over the USA? AIPAC has a huge influence over US policy, as do the 'Evangelical Christians' who believe Israel's existence fulfills scriptural prophecy (some of them seem to see the Israeli's as pawns in their biblical end-game)...
You're right, she probably has just as much power in Canada as she has over England.

Jason
03-02-2012, 06:09 AM   #10
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The other rather uninformed point made in a previous post was that Iran would like to see Israeli territory in "Arab" hands. Perhaps they would favor this if it were Shiite Arabs. I constantly hear people equate "Muslim" with "Arab." Iran's most costly war in modern history was with an Arab country backed by most of the Arab world.
03-02-2012, 08:49 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
The other rather uninformed point made in a previous post was that Iran would like to see Israeli territory in "Arab" hands. Perhaps they would favor this if it were Shiite Arabs. I constantly hear people equate "Muslim" with "Arab." Iran's most costly war in modern history was with an Arab country backed by most of the Arab world.
Oh here we go....

Persians originate from an Indoeuropean tribe, hence the persian language is closer to english (and effectively all other indo-european languages) than to arabic, despite the fact that they use same (or at least similar) alphabet (or letters).

On the other hand both Jews and Arabs originate from semitic tribes leading to some similarities between languages as well.

Been an Arab has at least in theory nothing to do with being a muslim as there are many muslims which are not Arabs (Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malasya, Turkey...) and there are even some christan Arabs (in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan...). On the other hand more than 90% of Arabs are muslim, and more than 90% muslims living in Israel ara Arabs.

As someone mentioned earlier regarding the religios positions of state of Israel (in radical christian and jewish groups), you still have radical positions in muslim world about the right to existence of a jewish state on a "holy" land. Note also that even muslims regard Jerusalem as a holy city.

The war between Iraq and Iran was not a religous war since Saddam Husein was never interrested in religion. He considered himself more as a descendant of ancient babylon rulers. The war between Iran and Iraq was supported more by western powers (on Iraqi side) than by Iraqs arab neighbours.

So to conclude, Iran wants to see the Israel in muslim hands, thus beeing arab or palestine hands. That since the clashes between suni and shiite muslims are still much smaller than clashes between islam and judaism.
03-02-2012, 12:55 PM   #12
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When it comes to nukes, remember this. Only one country has ever used them and did it twice. On civilian populations. Just keep it in the back of your mind.
03-02-2012, 01:36 PM   #13
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Bibi,
Get back to us on this after you've dismantled the settlements and signed off on a two-state deal.
Best regards
03-02-2012, 03:32 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Surely you jest. If it wasn't for the funding and support USA, Israel would have been wiped from the map decades ago.

As for being anyone's bitch, why does your money have the Queen's face on it?

Jason
And the USA has been reaping the benefits of being Israel's sock puppet for decades as well.
Funny thing is, the Queen has never told us that we have to make war on a country that has done nothing wrong.
This is what Nitwityahoo in Israel and the Semite Apologists don't seem to understand.
Iran has not ever used unprovoked military belligerence. Israel has. Over and over again.
But you are trying to deflect from the subject because you have nothing else to argue with.
Nice try.
03-02-2012, 06:40 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanislav Quote
Oh here we go....

Persians originate from an Indoeuropean tribe, hence the persian language is closer to english (and effectively all other indo-european languages) than to arabic, despite the fact that they use same (or at least similar) alphabet (or letters).

On the other hand both Jews and Arabs originate from semitic tribes leading to some similarities between languages as well.

Been an Arab has at least in theory nothing to do with being a muslim as there are many muslims which are not Arabs (Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malasya, Turkey...) and there are even some christan Arabs (in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan...). On the other hand more than 90% of Arabs are muslim, and more than 90% muslims living in Israel ara Arabs.

As someone mentioned earlier regarding the religios positions of state of Israel (in radical christian and jewish groups), you still have radical positions in muslim world about the right to existence of a jewish state on a "holy" land. Note also that even muslims regard Jerusalem as a holy city.

The war between Iraq and Iran was not a religous war since Saddam Husein was never interrested in religion. He considered himself more as a descendant of ancient babylon rulers. The war between Iran and Iraq was supported more by western powers (on Iraqi side) than by Iraqs arab neighbours.

So to conclude, Iran wants to see the Israel in muslim hands, thus beeing arab or palestine hands. That since the clashes between suni and shiite muslims are still much smaller than clashes between islam and judaism.
I don't know for whose benefit that was, but already knew as much of that as was accurate. Saudi Arabia was in fact a big supporter of Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. Saudi Arabia also pushed other Arab states of the Persian Gulf, including Kuwait, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates, to give financial support to Iraq, even though the Saudis were not fond of Saddam. It has also encouraged the U.S. to attack Iran, calling it a "snake." The relations between Iran and the Sunni Arab world have been mixed. As to the Palestinian movement, the only group Iran has warmed to is Hamas, which it pretty much owns. It hated the PLO because its focus was Arab, and it does not play well with the Palestinian Authority or many other Arab groups in the area.
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