Outrage builds over Florida vigilante-style killing

MRRiley · 03-20-2012, 05:22 PM

This guy is gonna love prison... especially when he ends up with a 300lb black cellmate who spends most of his time in the gym.

Mike

GeneV · 03-21-2012, 05:49 AM

The Justice Department now says it may be hard to prove a "hate crime." As Justice Department investigates shooting of Florida teen, doubts arise about federal charges - The Washington Post When did hate crimes become the only civil rights law? I seem to remember the murders of civil rights activists in the 60s being prosecuted under other laws prohibiting racially motivated killings. We may also be seeing the same problem (in the same state) as with Casey Anthony. Everyone has such a focus on murder and hate crimes that the guy may walk because he is not prosecuted for manslaughter--doing something reckless which kills another. what is the definition of manslaughter?

metaglypto · 03-21-2012, 06:57 AM

I think manslaughter is when a person kills another unintentionally, although they may have intended that person harm. Personally, I don't completely understand the term "hate crime", other than verbal assault types of things. If I murder someone with malice, anyone regardless of skin color, isn't that hate? Does that not make it a hate crime?

There was an incident here in Portland, Oregon where two ladies were living together in a lesbian relationship. They kept getting crosses burnt into the middle of their yard. It was being investigated as a "hate crime" towards the gay community. Police set up a surveillance camera without the knowledge of the occupants of the house or anyone else. It turned out, that one of the women in the house was the one doing it. Possibly trying to garner sympathy for their cause I guess. Now I could be wrong on this next part, memory is fading, but I believe there was some sort of plea bargain where she was not charged if she got counseling. At any rate, it was a mild slap on the wrist compared to what they were talking about doing had it been someone else, say like a someone who actively opposed that lifestyle.

I never could understand that double standard, or why it was not considered a hate crime in reverse. I guess it is not unlike some who believe that reverse discrimination is not the same as "classic" discrimination.

Wheatfield · 03-21-2012, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Everyone has such a focus on murder and hate crimes that the guy may walk because he is not prosecuted for manslaughter

That might be the idea. Prosecute the guy for anything and it calls the very stupid stand your ground law into disrepute. What's going to cost the lawmakers more votes? They have the choice of teeing off the NRA or the blacks?
Zimmerman is a dead man walking either way. Someone will catch him on the street and goad him into doing something and them whack him and use the SYG law as a legitimate defense. If they are smart, they'll have a "bystander" video the thing.

GeneV · 03-21-2012, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

That might be the idea. Prosecute the guy for anything and it calls the very stupid stand your ground law into disrepute. What's going to cost the lawmakers more votes? They have the choice of teeing off the NRA or the blacks?
Zimmerman is a dead man walking either way. Someone will catch him on the street and goad him into doing something and them whack him and use the SYG law as a legitimate defense. If they are smart, they'll have a "bystander" video the thing.

At the least, he will be sued and will be in bankruptcy. The parents will probably own the HOA which blessed his activity as well.

ihasa · 03-21-2012, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by metaglypto

I think manslaughter is when a person kills another unintentionally, although they may have intended that person harm. Personally, I don't completely understand the term "hate crime", other than verbal assault types of things. If I murder someone with malice, anyone regardless of skin color, isn't that hate? Does that not make it a hate crime?

I never could understand that double standard, or why it was not considered a hate crime in reverse. I guess it is not unlike some who believe that reverse discrimination is not the same as "classic" discrimination.

I think it's right that racially (or sexually or whatever) motivated crime should be given special attention; it's a particularly abhorrent and destructive sort of crime and should be punished as such. Hard to prove whether a crime was racially motivated though. I hope there's no suggestion that Zimmerman should 'get off' if there's no proof of a hate crime in this incident. He should be prosecuted for whatever crime he has committed.

mikemike · 03-21-2012, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

It is hard to tell about the slur. NBC posted a video where they play it over and over again, and the commentator describes a slur, but the sound has a bleep in it--very informative. While I am not sure we have a significant number of his prior calls released, it is interesting that all of his suspicious persons were black.

I just re-listened to the tape in the youtube video from the second post in this thread where there are no bleeps on headphones (Grado headphones that make sounds very clear) and around 2:20 he mutters something I think it is "F*cking punks" but can't be 100% sure. The second word definitely ends with a "nks" sound but doesn't sound like "coons" at all (I didn't even know that "coon" was a racist slur until yesterday).

GeneV · 03-21-2012, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by mikemike

I just re-listened to the tape in the youtube video from the second post in this thread where there are no bleeps on headphones (Grado headphones that make sounds very clear) and around 2:20 he mutters something I think it is "F*cking punks" but can't be 100% sure. The second word definitely ends with a "nks" sound but doesn't sound like "coons" at all (I didn't even know that "coon" was a racist slur until yesterday).

That is different from what I and others heard, but it is not a clear recording.

You are definitely showing your youth if you don't know that is a racial slur.

It also has a different meaning in Louisiana from the rest of the country.

mikemike · 03-21-2012, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

That is different from what I and others heard, but it is not a clear recording.

You are definitely showing your youth if you don't know that is a racial slur.

It also has a different meaning in Louisiana from the rest of the country.

I couldn't make out anything on speakers, it just sounded like some static-y noise until I put on the headphones.

Yeah, a "coon ass" is a cajun down here.

GeneV · 03-21-2012, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by mikemike

I couldn't make out anything on speakers, it just sounded like some static-y noise until I put on the headphones.

Yeah, a "coon ass" is a cajun down here.

On the link I posted, I could make out the words on the speakers. I am not sure all Youtube uploads are created equal.

seacapt · 03-21-2012, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

You are definitely showing your youth if you don't know that is a racial slur.

It also has a different meaning in Louisiana from the rest of the country.

Off topic but..
There are 2 disticnt species of oysters in coastal Carolina. The ones we prefer to eat grow under water. The other species tends to grow above the mid tide mark and are reffered to as "coon oysters" because the long thin shells and geometry of the clusters frequently resemble a racoon footprint no racial slur intended. A few Winters ago I was out picking up a bushel for a party we were hosting and noticed a gentleman who arrived in a boat with a NJ registration wading along the shorline trying to break up clusters of the less desirable species. I tried to be a good guy and said "Hey Buddy those are coon oysters , the good ones are out here". He proceeded to call me a dumb redneck racist.........blah blah blah.. I had my kids including my African American foster son with me so rather than making him retract his statement I just went on with my business. He filled up a bucket with the low grade oysters and left with another rude comment. When we got back to the ramp I was so happy to see an officer from the dept of marine fisheries explaining to the gentleman fom NJ "Yes Sir those are coon oysters and you have several below the legal size so I'm throwing them all back and giving you a citation for possession and harvest of undersize shellfish.

It made my day!

seacapt · 03-21-2012, 11:31 AM

Back on topic...
A true shame that this kid was killed. Sounds like Zimmerman is probably guilty of at least manslaughter but all the facts have not yet been examined.
I still support the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws and don't believe they apply to Zimmermans case from what info is available.
Also a true shame that this is being tried by the media and has become a poster child for so many groups who use it to further their political agendas.
As far as Utube clips , I can upload one that says Zimmerman called the kid "Queen of the May"

Parallax · 03-21-2012, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by seacapt

I still support the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws and don't believe they apply to Zimmermans case

Right. If anything, it should be used do defend any (if there was any) resistance that Martin may offered.
Martin is an example of who's rights the Castle Doctrine laws were designed to protect.

GeneV · 03-21-2012, 11:41 AM

This doctrine has been a problem all around. We had a homeowner chase down and kill young man a couple of years ago because he was suspected of burglarizing a car. I suppose the car is the castle, too. The shooter was charged with murder, but jury could not reach a guilty verdict, mostly because they thought the young man was a burglar. It is amazing how this came to be a capital offense.

Martin called his girlfriend and told her he was afraid because Zimmerman looked threatening and was following him. Would Martin have been justified in gunning down Zimmerman? One wonders what kind of society we are creating.

Parallax · 03-21-2012, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Would Martin have been justified in gunning down Zimmerman?

That would depend on whether he genuinely felt his life was in imminent danger. I would not be surprised if cop-wannabe Zimmerman approached Martin with his gun drawn.
I cannot imagine a scenario for this wherein Martin was at fault.

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03-20-2012, 05:22 PM	#31
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	This guy is gonna love prison... especially when he ends up with a 300lb black cellmate who spends most of his time in the gym. Mike

03-21-2012, 05:49 AM	#32
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	The Justice Department now says it may be hard to prove a "hate crime." As Justice Department investigates shooting of Florida teen, doubts arise about federal charges - The Washington Post When did hate crimes become the only civil rights law? I seem to remember the murders of civil rights activists in the 60s being prosecuted under other laws prohibiting racially motivated killings. We may also be seeing the same problem (in the same state) as with Casey Anthony. Everyone has such a focus on murder and hate crimes that the guy may walk because he is not prosecuted for manslaughter--doing something reckless which kills another. what is the definition of manslaughter?

03-21-2012, 06:57 AM	#33
metaglypto Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Umatilla, Oregon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 188	I think manslaughter is when a person kills another unintentionally, although they may have intended that person harm. Personally, I don't completely understand the term "hate crime", other than verbal assault types of things. If I murder someone with malice, anyone regardless of skin color, isn't that hate? Does that not make it a hate crime? There was an incident here in Portland, Oregon where two ladies were living together in a lesbian relationship. They kept getting crosses burnt into the middle of their yard. It was being investigated as a "hate crime" towards the gay community. Police set up a surveillance camera without the knowledge of the occupants of the house or anyone else. It turned out, that one of the women in the house was the one doing it. Possibly trying to garner sympathy for their cause I guess. Now I could be wrong on this next part, memory is fading, but I believe there was some sort of plea bargain where she was not charged if she got counseling. At any rate, it was a mild slap on the wrist compared to what they were talking about doing had it been someone else, say like a someone who actively opposed that lifestyle. I never could understand that double standard, or why it was not considered a hate crime in reverse. I guess it is not unlike some who believe that reverse discrimination is not the same as "classic" discrimination.

03-21-2012, 07:02 AM	#34
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by GeneV Everyone has such a focus on murder and hate crimes that the guy may walk because he is not prosecuted for manslaughter That might be the idea. Prosecute the guy for anything and it calls the very stupid stand your ground law into disrepute. What's going to cost the lawmakers more votes? They have the choice of teeing off the NRA or the blacks? Zimmerman is a dead man walking either way. Someone will catch him on the street and goad him into doing something and them whack him and use the SYG law as a legitimate defense. If they are smart, they'll have a "bystander" video the thing.

03-21-2012, 07:08 AM	#35
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Wheatfield That might be the idea. Prosecute the guy for anything and it calls the very stupid stand your ground law into disrepute. What's going to cost the lawmakers more votes? They have the choice of teeing off the NRA or the blacks? Zimmerman is a dead man walking either way. Someone will catch him on the street and goad him into doing something and them whack him and use the SYG law as a legitimate defense. If they are smart, they'll have a "bystander" video the thing. At the least, he will be sued and will be in bankruptcy. The parents will probably own the HOA which blessed his activity as well.

03-21-2012, 07:22 AM	#36
ihasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: West Midlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,066	Originally posted by metaglypto I think manslaughter is when a person kills another unintentionally, although they may have intended that person harm. Personally, I don't completely understand the term "hate crime", other than verbal assault types of things. If I murder someone with malice, anyone regardless of skin color, isn't that hate? Does that not make it a hate crime? I never could understand that double standard, or why it was not considered a hate crime in reverse. I guess it is not unlike some who believe that reverse discrimination is not the same as "classic" discrimination. I think it's right that racially (or sexually or whatever) motivated crime should be given special attention; it's a particularly abhorrent and destructive sort of crime and should be punished as such. Hard to prove whether a crime was racially motivated though. I hope there's no suggestion that Zimmerman should 'get off' if there's no proof of a hate crime in this incident. He should be prosecuted for whatever crime he has committed.

03-21-2012, 09:22 AM	#37
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	Originally posted by GeneV It is hard to tell about the slur. NBC posted a video where they play it over and over again, and the commentator describes a slur, but the sound has a bleep in it--very informative. While I am not sure we have a significant number of his prior calls released, it is interesting that all of his suspicious persons were black. I just re-listened to the tape in the youtube video from the second post in this thread where there are no bleeps on headphones (Grado headphones that make sounds very clear) and around 2:20 he mutters something I think it is "F*cking punks" but can't be 100% sure. The second word definitely ends with a "nks" sound but doesn't sound like "coons" at all (I didn't even know that "coon" was a racist slur until yesterday).

03-21-2012, 09:44 AM	#38
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by mikemike I just re-listened to the tape in the youtube video from the second post in this thread where there are no bleeps on headphones (Grado headphones that make sounds very clear) and around 2:20 he mutters something I think it is "F*cking punks" but can't be 100% sure. The second word definitely ends with a "nks" sound but doesn't sound like "coons" at all (I didn't even know that "coon" was a racist slur until yesterday). That is different from what I and others heard, but it is not a clear recording. You are definitely showing your youth if you don't know that is a racial slur. It also has a different meaning in Louisiana from the rest of the country.

03-21-2012, 10:44 AM	#39
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	Originally posted by GeneV That is different from what I and others heard, but it is not a clear recording. You are definitely showing your youth if you don't know that is a racial slur. It also has a different meaning in Louisiana from the rest of the country. I couldn't make out anything on speakers, it just sounded like some static-y noise until I put on the headphones. Yeah, a "coon ass" is a cajun down here.

03-21-2012, 10:49 AM	#40
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by mikemike I couldn't make out anything on speakers, it just sounded like some static-y noise until I put on the headphones. Yeah, a "coon ass" is a cajun down here. On the link I posted, I could make out the words on the speakers. I am not sure all Youtube uploads are created equal.

03-21-2012, 10:50 AM	#41
seacapt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Carolina , USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,271	Originally posted by GeneV You are definitely showing your youth if you don't know that is a racial slur. It also has a different meaning in Louisiana from the rest of the country. Off topic but.. There are 2 disticnt species of oysters in coastal Carolina. The ones we prefer to eat grow under water. The other species tends to grow above the mid tide mark and are reffered to as "coon oysters" because the long thin shells and geometry of the clusters frequently resemble a racoon footprint no racial slur intended. A few Winters ago I was out picking up a bushel for a party we were hosting and noticed a gentleman who arrived in a boat with a NJ registration wading along the shorline trying to break up clusters of the less desirable species. I tried to be a good guy and said "Hey Buddy those are coon oysters , the good ones are out here". He proceeded to call me a dumb redneck racist.........blah blah blah.. I had my kids including my African American foster son with me so rather than making him retract his statement I just went on with my business. He filled up a bucket with the low grade oysters and left with another rude comment. When we got back to the ramp I was so happy to see an officer from the dept of marine fisheries explaining to the gentleman fom NJ "Yes Sir those are coon oysters and you have several below the legal size so I'm throwing them all back and giving you a citation for possession and harvest of undersize shellfish. It made my day!

03-21-2012, 11:31 AM	#42
seacapt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Carolina , USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,271	Back on topic... A true shame that this kid was killed. Sounds like Zimmerman is probably guilty of at least manslaughter but all the facts have not yet been examined. I still support the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws and don't believe they apply to Zimmermans case from what info is available. Also a true shame that this is being tried by the media and has become a poster child for so many groups who use it to further their political agendas. As far as Utube clips , I can upload one that says Zimmerman called the kid "Queen of the May"

03-21-2012, 11:35 AM	#43
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by seacapt I still support the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws and don't believe they apply to Zimmermans case Right. If anything, it should be used do defend any (if there was any) resistance that Martin may offered. Martin is an example of who's rights the Castle Doctrine laws were designed to protect.

03-21-2012, 11:41 AM	#44
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	This doctrine has been a problem all around. We had a homeowner chase down and kill young man a couple of years ago because he was suspected of burglarizing a car. I suppose the car is the castle, too. The shooter was charged with murder, but jury could not reach a guilty verdict, mostly because they thought the young man was a burglar. It is amazing how this came to be a capital offense. Martin called his girlfriend and told her he was afraid because Zimmerman looked threatening and was following him. Would Martin have been justified in gunning down Zimmerman? One wonders what kind of society we are creating.

03-21-2012, 11:47 AM	#45
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by GeneV Would Martin have been justified in gunning down Zimmerman? That would depend on whether he genuinely felt his life was in imminent danger. I would not be surprised if cop-wannabe Zimmerman approached Martin with his gun drawn. I cannot imagine a scenario for this wherein Martin was at fault.