[FlashCube]

Sounds like a directive to me, obviously not legally binding, but a directive none the less. It was certainly a statement of dissuasion. And had Zimmerman followed it, there is a very high probability, bordering on 100% that the kid wouldn't have been whacked.
The guy followed a citizen, started an altercation of some sort with him, and ended up pulling a gun and shooting the kid who was doing nothing wrong. This you find nothing wrong with?
I'm amazed. People hunting is legal in Florida.

I wasn't debating the ethics or stupidness of Zimmerman. However, the Police stated that it wasn't a legally binding directive. See the provide links. No, people hunting isn't legal in Florida. Nor was I debating whether or not Martin did anything wrong. However, there are 2 witnesses that saw Martin beating the crap out of Zimmerman. As per the other statute I posted above, Zimmerman wasn't obligated to allow Martin to finish beating him to a pulp, whether he started it or not.

[FlashCube]

Quite frankly, even Zimmerman's current story is good cause to rethink how this law is being used. According to Zimmerman, (if he is to be believed) Martin acted exactly as I did when pursued by a heavier guy. In this case, Zimmerman outweighed Martin by close to 100lbs. If a bigger guy is following, you try to get the element of surprise. If a fistfight with a smaller guy gets you justification for shooting him, someone really needs to rethink this.

According to the current State's Attorney that replaced the one that withdrew from the case over the weekend, there was 50 pounds difference in their weight. Zimmerman is 5' 9" and 200 pounds and Martin was 6' 2" and 150.

[ihasa]

The possibility that Florida's "stand your ground" law could protect a neighborhood watchman who shot and killed an unarmed teen last month has lawmakers who opposed the measure saying told you so.

"When we passed the law, we said it portends horrific events when people's lives were put into these situations, and my worst fears came to fruition," Sen. Arthenia Joyner, D-Tampa, said this week. "A young life was snuffed out."

Joyner was in the state House when "stand your ground" passed in 2005 and fears the law — which allows people to use deadly force in cases of self-defense when they believe their life is at risk — could save 28-year-old shooter George Zimmerman from prosecution.

As the investigation unfolds, it's worthwhile to look back to the origins of the "stand your ground" law and the concerns legislators like Joyner had at the time.

"For a House that talks about the culture of life, it's ironic that we would be devaluing life in this bill, which is exactly what we're doing," said Rep. Dan Gelber, a former federal prosecutor from Miami Beach who later was elected to the Senate.

Gelber said Floridians already had the right to defend themselves in their homes and offered an amendment that would restore a person's duty to retreat from a confrontation in public places. Rep. Eleanor Sobel, a South Florida Democrat who now serves in the Senate, said Gelber's amendment would reduce "chaos on the street."

Republicans defeated Gelber's amendment on a voice vote. The bill's sponsor, Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, called an obligation to retreat "a good way to get shot in the back."

Members debated another unsuccessful amendment from Rep. Jack Seiler, a Democrat who is now mayor of Fort Lauderdale. Seiler's proposal would have allowed for rebuttal to a person's claim of self-defense.

"We are going to give blanket immunity to criminals when they commit crime," Seiler said.

Other voices from the hour-long debate:

• "What would happen if I presumed that there was a threat when actually there was not a threat? I would hate to think that I would react and take someone's life, or do bodily harm to someone, who actually only looked a little different than I looked," said Rep. Priscilla Taylor, D-West Palm Beach.

• "When you give a person the right to use deadly force anywhere they're lawfully supposed to be, then we open Pandora's Box, and inside the box will be death for some persons," Joyner said.

• "In a few years, you will be back trying to fix this bill," said Rep. Ken Gottlieb, D-Hollywood.

Democrats warned about 'stand your ground' in 2005 - Tampa Bay Times

In 2007, the National District Attorneys Association convened a symposium on the "stand your ground" law and other expansions to the right to use of deadly force in self-defense. A symposium report listed a number of concerns: Criminals might be emboldened as they learn to use "stand your ground" as a legal defense. More deaths could result as more people carry weapons for self-defense. People might feel less safe if they believe anyone could use deadly force in an unsettling situation.

More pointedly for the Trayvon Martin case, the report noted that a misinterpretation of physical clues could result in the use of deadly force, "exacerbating culture, class, and race differences" and that there could be "a disproportionately negative effect on minorities, persons from lower socioeconomic status, and young adults/juveniles."

Our ruling:

Baxley said "We’ve had a dramatic drop in violent crime since this law has been in effect." His comments in television interviews implied the law itself reduced violent crime rates. There has been a drop, but rates were declining before the law went into effect. [In 2006 and 2007, violent crime rates were up just slightly up compared with 2005. In 2008, the violent crime rate began declining. By 2011, the violent crime rate had dropped 14 percent since 2005.] We found no proof that that the "stand your ground" law caused the drop in crime rates; some groups worry the law could lead to more violence. We rate his claim Half True.

PolitiFact Florida | Crime rates in Florida have dropped since 'stand your ground,' says Dennis Baxley

[kswier]

However, there are 2 witnesses that saw Martin beating the crap out of Zimmerman.

I was reading the same thing. Something does not sit right with me regarding these statements. I was once a 6'3' 150lb teenager. There was no way I was beating any grown man who weighed 200lbs to a pulp. I am not saying it is impossible (he may have been better at punching than me), but it just does not sit right.

[gokenin]

I was reading the same thing. Something does not sit right with me regarding these statements. I was once a 6'3' 150lb teenager. There was no way I was beating any grown man who weighed 200lbs to a pulp. I am not saying it is impossible (he may have been better at punching than me), but it just does not sit right.

Really? You can't imagine someone that is in good shape and younger being able to beat am older gentleman that is not in the best of shape? Again completely off topic but I think today's youth are more prone to physical violence than in years past just do a search on YouTube for fights or listen to any news broadcast not saying that in yesteryear there were not fights but there also isn't the same sense of respect for your elders in much of today's youth as there was when I was a teen. Well that's my opinion

[seacapt]

I was reading the same thing. Something does not sit right with me regarding these statements. I was once a 6'3' 150lb teenager. There was no way I was beating any grown man who weighed 200lbs to a pulp. I am not saying it is impossible (he may have been better at punching than me), but it just does not sit right.

Zimmerman is a chubby desk jockey not a brick mason.

[kswier]

Really? You can't imagine someone that is in good shape and younger being able to beat am older gentleman that is not in the best of shape?

6'3' 150lb means he was a stick. If you look at BMI tables on the internet, this is on the verge of being underweight. And Zimmerman was not an old man by any means (he was 29). Also, he had aspirations for being a law enforcement officer, so I doubt Zimmerman was all fat. I am not saying that Martin did not give a good first punch and begin attacking Zimmerman (I will wait for the official reports to come in). If this information is true Zimmerman's actions would be legally justified, but I wonder it they were really necessary. I just find it hard to believe Zimmerman could not get up.

In the end, I do not refute the evidence that is coming out, but something does not sit right in my mind. I have a very hard time imagining Zimmerman in a position where shooting was the only option (not saying it is impossible, but it leaves me scratching my head).

[magkelly]

Zimmerman bothering the kid was highly questionable, as was his use of his firearm. The whole point of a Neighborhood Watch program is that you're supposed to WATCH, notify police and STAY OUT OF IT. You're not supposed to arm up and act like you're a cop in the absence of one. The police and several people on the scene do support Zimmerman's story that he got punched in the mouth and that the kid hit him several times on the back of the head. It sounds like the two really got into it but that Zimmerman's final reaction was completely over the top. Why he didn't just settle for punching the kid back I just don't understand but it's looking more and more like the kid wasn't quite the person his family is portraying him to be. This whole thing is a mess, and a sad one. I don't know that I think what Zimmerman did really qualifies as self-defense but then again I don't think the kid was maybe such an angel either.

[newarts]

Clearly the solution is to arm the Martins of the world too.

[GeneV]

However, there are 2 witnesses that saw Martin beating the crap out of Zimmerman. As per the other statute I posted above, Zimmerman wasn't obligated to allow Martin to finish beating him to a pulp, whether he started it or not.

If this is true, then, yes he should be rather than kill him. Whether it is 50 lbs or the 100 lbs weight difference as indicated by earlier reports, his life was in no danger, and "beating to a pulp" really didn't mean serious injury. Taking another life because you are losing a fistfight with a skinny kid would be insane, especially one which you provoked. However, this seems to be the kind of wild west world these laws want to create.

If Martin really was 6'2" 150 lbs, then my story about myself as a kid is right on point.

[Wheatfield]

If this is true, then, yes he should be rather than kill him. Whether it is 50 lbs or the 100 lbs weight difference as indicated by earlier reports, his life was in no danger, and "beating to a pulp" really didn't mean serious injury. Taking another life because you are losing a fistfight with a skinny kid would be insane, especially one which you provoked. However, this seems to be the kind of wild west world these laws want to create.

If Martin really was 6'2" 150 lbs, then my story about myself as a kid is right on point.

As I said earlier, people hunting in Florida is legal. Here's how it works: You set yourself up as a decoy to draw in the person you want to draw in. This would be done by verbal confrontation, general belligerence culminating in a certain amount of (harmless) physical provocation, perhaps pushing or similar. Once you have enraged the person you have targeted to the point they come at you, pull your gun and kill him, since you all of a sudden feel threatened.

I suspect this conversation wouldn't be happening if the young lad had been carrying a gun and used it on Zimmerman, all other facts remaining the same, (ignoring the legalities of a 17 yr old packing for the moment). It would then have been a murder investigation, with the Black kid portrayed as just another Gangsta offing a white guy, in this case a Neighborhood Watch member, a pillar of the community.

I suspect if this case stands without Zimmerman going to jail for manslaughter at the very least, Florida is going to see a huge spike in people shooting each other because of perceived threat. It remains to be seen how many innocent bystanders get shot as well.

[FlashCube]

As I said earlier, people hunting in Florida is legal. Here's how it works: You set yourself up as a decoy to draw in the person you want to draw in. This would be done by verbal confrontation, general belligerence culminating in a certain amount of (harmless) physical provocation, perhaps pushing or similar. Once you have enraged the person you have targeted to the point they come at you, pull your gun and kill him, since you all of a sudden feel threatened.

I suspect this conversation wouldn't be happening if the young lad had been carrying a gun and used it on Zimmerman, all other facts remaining the same, (ignoring the legalities of a 17 yr old packing for the moment). It would then have been a murder investigation, with the Black kid portrayed as just another Gangsta offing a white guy, in this case a Neighborhood Watch member, a pillar of the community.

I suspect if this case stands without Zimmerman going to jail for manslaughter at the very least, Florida is going to see a huge spike in people shooting each other because of perceived threat. It remains to be seen how many innocent bystanders get shot as well.

Do you have any data to back this up? No you don't because they are rare occurrence. Furthermore, the current statute has been in place since 2005. However, if you want to look at innocent bystanders getting shot, I suggest you look at the news reports in Chicago such as the 6 year old girl last week. Those sorts of events happen with frequency in Chicago.

However, this kind of thing happens frequently in Florida. It has happened here in Tallahassee frequently. The is regarding the Shootout at the Circle K Coral in 2009. There has been 4 trials, 1 more to go. The first 4 would have walked if it hadn't been for Florida's lax gun laws (sarcasm intended there). They got 20 years for pulling one.


[UPDATE] Tashawnbie Gay Sentenced in Circle-K Shooting

This one happened recently a few blocks from where I retired from work.

[UPDTE] TPD: Men Indicted for Murder in Shooting at Osceola & Holton


How about these teens that got shot?

http://www.wctv.tv/courtcases/headlines/93436854.html


These guys don't care about laws anyway because the break them.

[FlashCube]

If this is true, then, yes he should be rather than kill him. Whether it is 50 lbs or the 100 lbs weight difference as indicated by earlier reports, his life was in no danger, and "beating to a pulp" really didn't mean serious injury. Taking another life because you are losing a fistfight with a skinny kid would be insane, especially one which you provoked. However, this seems to be the kind of wild west world these laws want to create.

If Martin really was 6'2" 150 lbs, then my story about myself as a kid is right on point.

I hate to tell you this, but you can be killed like that.

[FlashCube]

Clearly the solution is to arm the Martins of the world too.

Or just don't suspend them from high school for bringing pot. The legalization of pot would have prevented this whole thing.

[ihasa]

That must be the oddest take on this incident yet! Legalizing pot wouldn't be such a terrible idea though. Perhaps if Zimmerman had taken some he might not have tried to be so badass...