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04-04-2012, 07:58 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Perhaps a better way of comparing crime statistics would be to use statistical averages as opposed to just reporting gross numbers or comparing population counts. For example what is the likelihood of being a victim of crime in Canada as opposed to the US. Don't know the answer but it's better than just saying well Canada had fewer murders or population of Florid is half of Canada. Those are basically meaningless numbers without a context. What is Florida's and Canada's actual murder rate, not number of murders. If they had 5 murders and 19 million people that is different if they had 5 murders an 100 people to use an exaggerated example.
The comparison that I made of the populations was just that, a comparison of populations to imply the size of our various systems here.

As far as crime statistics. I and others have posted a link to the FBI UCR. However, I haven't been overly concerned with analyzing Canada's data.

FBI — Uniform Crime Reports

04-04-2012, 08:11 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Perhaps a better way of comparing crime statistics would be to use statistical averages as opposed to just reporting gross numbers or comparing population counts.
I agree. Interestingly, I was just doing some Googling of Canada's crime rates and trying to find some different statistics when I happened upon this article, "Gun control, homicide rates not linked: study" Gun control, homicide rates not linked: study | News | National Post

I think it was in the other Zimm/Martin thread that some were waxing eloquent about Canada's low murder rate being inextricably linked to their gun laws. This article seems to contradict that theory.

I am beginning to get the impression that not only do Americans not know what is going on in Canada, neither do the Canadians. But they sure seem to think they know more about what is going on in the United States than the Americans!
04-04-2012, 08:38 PM - 1 Like   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
If you haven't picked sides, then you seem to consistently play devil's advocate for Zimmerman's side of the story, while other times you repeat the unimpeachable point that we don't know the circumstances that led to Martin's death and therefore we should wait for results. Yet if you haven't picked sides, it is hard to understand why your "debating" tactics result in stifling all consideration of Zimmerman's guilt.
First off, I haven't debated his guilt or innocence. I have questioned trying, convicting and hanging him in the press based in part on altered and manipulated audio etc. As I said before, the state has been investigating this all along. This same kind of thing happened with the Duke LaCrosse Team. I am waiting to see what the State has.
QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
People are upset with Zimmerman because we know he followed a kid, the kid belonged in the neighborhood, Zimmerman was told not to follow, Zimmerman left his vehicle and walked toward Martin in order to get within speaking distance, and that Zimmerman shot Martin dead. It also seems obvious that if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle, none of this would have happened. There are other questions about lack of police thoroughness, profiling, Zimmerman's history of violence, lack of treating the crime scene properly,
Actually, you don't know and neither do I regarding how things went down. However, it is interesting that you have backed off from the mantra that he "Chased" Martin down. The details is under investigation. And again, you don't know how the crime scene was treated or the quality of the evidence. The results of the autopsy are still sealed.

QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
Florida's gun laws, etc.
I do know more about Florida's gun laws than you do though. They aren't the problem. Gun crimes have serious penalties in this state. A crime committed with a weapon by a ccw holder is rare. I posted the numbers on that way back as well.

QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
All these are legitimate issues allowed to be discussed in an informal forum, along with the possibility that Zimmerman is telling the truth. If you really haven't picked sides, it would seem you'd acknowledge both sides of the argument.
Where have I said they shouldn't be debated? Show me. I think a manslaughter charge may have been made that night, but I haven't seen the sealed records. All I have seen regarding facts is on the Sanford PD site. Those are limited.

QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
if you were interested in more than contrariness and defensiveness, you'd not fight any and every attempt to question Zimmerman's behavior and Florida's way of doing things.

Contrariness and defensiveness? That is pretty "special" given some of the comments leveled at me with absolutely no substance behind them. As far as Zimmerman's behavior go, I said he showed poor judgment by not waiting for police in his truck or going on home. Being stupid isn't necessarily illegal. I made an analogy to seeing Count Dracula somewhere earlier in this thread. Many of the posts I have made weren't really about Zimmerman such as the discussion about bail and crime statistics.


QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
Florida's way of doing things
I haven't defended Florida's "Way" of doing things. If you go back, you will find some links to a case in Pensacola involving a police shooting of an unarmed man when there were 10 officers there as backup. I really didn't like the way that went down. I have also been critical of the Robert Champion case at FAMU still not having any arrests made. That is being worked by FDLE and Orange County Sheriff's office. I didn't agree with the way the Rachel Hoffman case was handled here in Tallahassee by TPD.

QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
IMHO, to be so intractable in debate will end up leaving only you and those who agree with you left in the discussion.
Being Intractable works 2 ways you know. Actually, I haven't made any kind of final opinion on this case. There are several scenarios that could be true, and there are 2 to 4 outcomes. I have thought about the O.J. case over the years.

Have you ever seen a Gun Smoke episode when there is a prisoner in the jail waiting for trial and the guy may be guilty? However Marshal Mat Dillon holds off the lynch mob regardless.
04-04-2012, 08:46 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Well, one thing for sure I'm probably not going to Florida anytime soon. Sounds like the Wild West down there. What did someone call it, the Gunshine State, sounds about right.
You would be far more likely to injured or get killed in a car wreck. The Gunshine comment was from typical firearm phobic goof bags.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
And I thought gun play was bad here in Texas where we have psuedo tough guys using assault rifles on tied up, sick, ex Circus animals thinking that shooting guns makes them macho.
You Texas boys could just do like Ohio and turn them out and let the police do it.

04-04-2012, 08:49 PM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
is interesting that you have backed off from the mantra that he "Chased" Martin down.
How can it be a "mantra" if I've altered my description? It seems to me it means I do listen and adjust.


QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Have you ever seen a Gun Smoke episode when there is a prisoner in the jail waiting for trial and the guy may be guilty? However Marshal Mat Dillon holds off the lynch mob regardless.
That analogy seems a bit melodramatic don't you think? I have seen Rashomon several times . . . black and white film and Kurosawa always seemed a great fit to me.
04-04-2012, 08:58 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
How can it be a "mantra" if I've altered my description? It seems to me it means I do listen and adjust.




That analogy seems a bit melodramatic don't you think? I have seen Rashomon several times . . . black and white film and Kurosawa always seemed a great fit to me.
I don't know why you call it melodramatic. The U.S. Marshal always holds back the lynch mob whether the person is a total p.o.s. or not and attempts to see the legal system work. There are people working against that here in Florida regarding this case, i.e. NBPP, Sharpton and Jackson. This is not a common occurrence in Florida.
04-04-2012, 08:58 PM   #127
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Evidence That the U.S. is Racist Beyond All Comprehension

From Wikipedia Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SOURCES: US Bureau of Justice Statistics (2004),[9] Federal Bureau of Investigation, (2010)[10]

Characteristics of offenders

of the 1.3 million violent crimes that are interracial

75% involve white victims and black offenders
15% involve white victims and other-race offenders
10% involve black victims and white offenders.

As of 2008, statistics report that of 16,277 murders

10,568 were committed by males
1,176 were by female
4,533 were committed in which the offenders sex was unknown
5,334 murders were committed by white offenders
5,943 were committed by black or black and Hispanic offenders
273 were committed by offenders of other races
4,727 murders were committed by offenders whose race is not known

According to Anthony Walsh [whoever that is]
Whites constituted 82.2% of the American population in 1999(US Bureau of the Census, 2000)

It should be noted that the "white" category in the UCR includes non-black Hispanics, and the "black" category includes black Hispanics."[13]


Crime victimology

2.7% of African Americans became the victim of a violent crime

compared to 2.0% of Whites

In 2004 African Americans constituted roughly 13.4% of the general population
49%, of all murder victims in 2005 were African American.

So what is my point??? I am not making one, at least not right now. You might say I am on a fishing expedition to see if any others would care to read that article and offer their analysis.

04-04-2012, 10:22 PM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I don't know why you call it melodramatic. The U.S. Marshal always holds back the lynch mob whether the person is a total p.o.s. or not and attempts to see the legal system work. There are people working against that here in Florida regarding this case, i.e. NBPP, Sharpton and Jackson. This is not a common occurrence in Florida.
I haven't seen you equally concerned over this kind of stuff:

QuoteQuote:
White Supremacist Hacks Trayvon Martin’s Email Account, Leaks Messages Online

The racist smear campaign against Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teen shot to death last month in Florida, has reached a new level of ghoulishness. A white supremacist hacker says he's broken into Martin's email and social networking accounts, and leaked his private Facebook messages. We've been able to confirm that at least one email account that belonged to Martin was cracked.

The hacker, who goes by the name Klanklannon, posted what he said were Martin's private Facebook messages to the politics section (NSFW) of the anarchic message board 4chan—called "/pol/"—Tuesday afternoon at around noon. The messages were posted on four slides, strategically arranged to back up the insane racist argument that Trayvon was a Scary Black Teenager and so somehow deserved to be killed by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman that night.

A slide titled "Trayvon Martin Used Marijuana Habitually," features an exchange between Trayvon and a friend about getting high. Another slide, "Trayvon Martin was a Drug Dealer" features Facebook messages and photos that supposedly prove Martin dealt drugs, including a picture of Martin posing "aggressively with a large amount of cash in his hand." It's impossible to verify the hacked messages' authenticity—like other anti-Trayvon Martin propaganda, they're probably a mix of real and fake content— but they are now being passed around as gospel among the racist underbelly of the internet, including message boards like the neo-Nazi hive Stormfront, which Klanklannon apparently frequents.

In addition to the Facebook messages, Klanklannon posted a list of usernames and passwords for Martin's social media and email accounts as proof of his exploits. All of the passwords had been changed to racist slurs. (Gmail: "******************" Twitter: "coontrayvon******")

"I realize that some of this information might be to (sic) extreme to believe," Klanklannon writes in a copy of the original 4chan thread we've obtained. "That's why I offer you evidence. Here are my sources."

The list included login details for Martin's Gmail, Yahoo, MySpace, and Twitter accounts. A source who came across the 4chan post when it was live was able to use the information to log onto Martin's Gmail account Tuesday night. Our source panicked upon seeing that trolls had started using the account to send emails under Martin's name, and deleted the account. (An email sent to Martin's Gmail address bounced back today; Martin's Twitter account has also been deactivated. His MySpace page is still up, showing that the last login was Tuesday.)

On 4chan, Klanklannon made clear their intention to smear Trayvon. Klanklannon introduces the post with, "Today /pol/, tomorrow CNN." One 4chan user told us Klanklannon had been attempting to break into Martin's accounts for days, posting periodic updates to the board.

"Where did all the liberals go?," Klanklannon taunted after posting his slides. "Did they run off because they can't handle the facts?"

But Klanklannon included none of Martin's emails in his leak, because the picture they paint is of a normal high school junior preparing for college. A screenshot of Trayvon's Gmail inbox our source provided us is heartbreaking. Martin apparently used his Gmail account for his college search, and it's filled with emails about upcoming SAT tests and scholarship applications. ("Trayvon, now is the best time to take the SATs!") One email included the results of a career aptitude test, our source said. It "talked about his interest in aeronautics and stuff."
04-04-2012, 10:24 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by metaglypto Quote
Evidence That the U.S. is Racist Beyond All Comprehension . . . So what is my point??? I am not making one, at least not right now. You might say I am on a fishing expedition to see if any others would care to read that article and offer their analysis.
It seems your point is to justify profiling.
04-04-2012, 11:44 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
I haven't seen you equally concerned over this kind of stuff:
Even if all that stuff about Trayvon is true, it doesn't justify killing him. Even if Trayvon were caught selling marijuana to my kid, it doesn't justify killing him. There aren't too many things that justify killing another person. It is understandable if Zimm indeed did fear for his life, and believed he was going to die, which I doubt, that he would pull the trigger as a last resort. Still if Zimm initiated physical contact, he should go to jail.

There are just too many variables to try and second guess what happened, though I continue to try and understand it.

As to
QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
It seems your point is to justify profiling.
keep guessing.
04-05-2012, 12:17 AM   #131
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The statistics are troubling, Met, but the issue here is that a young man here was treated as nothing more than a 'statistic' - each person deserves treating as a human being with his own individual circumstances, not just which 'profile' he fits. People have made comments about black on black crime, for example, which have NO bearing on this case whatsoever.
04-05-2012, 06:41 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
I haven't seen you equally concerned over this kind of stuff:

For one thing, I have never posted on any other topic on the Political forum unless a thread was moved down here. There isn't a thread on Robert Champion or the Hazing at FAMU. We have historically had a problem with that in our Marching 100 at FAMU going back to the early 1950s. None of the other cases I mentioned have had threads either. Right now you aren't debating but leveling personal attacks.

As far as the garbage you just posted, show me where I have ever posted or referred to that garbage? I will save you the trouble. I haven't so you can't.

Last edited by Blue; 04-05-2012 at 06:47 AM.
04-05-2012, 06:43 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Don't forget this one. The trial was concluded last week. The murders occurred last April.

Fla. teen guilty of tourists' murder - New York Daily News
Nope can't say I heard a whole lot about that one.
04-05-2012, 06:54 AM   #134
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Believe me it was covered a lot over here. Sad story, I can barely imagine a more callous murder.
04-05-2012, 07:12 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
First off, I haven't debated his guilt or innocence. I have questioned trying, convicting and hanging him in the press based in part on altered and manipulated audio etc. As I said before, the state has been investigating this all along. This same kind of thing happened with the Duke LaCrosse Team. I am waiting to see what the State has.
Lets take a trip down that memory lane. The lives of several innocent students and faculty were ruined by the accusations of a drunken whore making up a story to avoid commitment to a psyc/drug facillity , the overly enthusiastic (and non factual) media portrayal of the incident and a DA bent on fame & fortune by prosecuting this "hate crime".
The "victim" of the reported "rape" has since been arrested on multiple occassions for arson , attempted murder and child abuse.


QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I haven't defended Florida's "Way" of doing things
Well as a FL expat please allow me to do so. There was a time in the not too distant past that Florida was a great place to live.Back then there was a much different ratio of Floridian to nonFloridian residents. Unfortunitely the massive influx of non indigenous residents who upon arrival try to change the Florida Way before they even put FL tags ontheir cars has driven the "Florida Way" into the classification of a lost culture.

Last edited by seacapt; 04-05-2012 at 08:30 AM.
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