[jeffkrol]

I think people should be free to major in what ever they want. I just wonder why anyone would loan money to someone who was majoring in equine psychology. Can anyone find out what the median income is for an equine psychologist. I don't remember seeing that booth on career day at my high school.

I think you are missing the point that this is in the UK..........
Study Online Equine Behaviour and Psychology Diploma Course
http://www.animal-job.co.uk/ebooks.html

[mikemike]

Of course most of this discussion presumes the sole benefit to society from education is vocational training for current jobs. For a functioning democracy, and a population that has skills to progress and innovate, it should be much more than that. It can hardly be said that the early American schools were teaching reading, writing and grammar so that children could be better farmers.

That is not the sole benefit of education, but I think it could be presumed that career preparedness is the primary if not sole reason someone would borrow tens of thousands of dollars to get an education.

[Checking...jono]

My education, some forty years ago, was not for a specific vocation, but it gave me the tools to pursue whatever avenues I wished. There is still quite a bit of value in that. As far as equine psychologists go I have never employed one, but I contribute to the over one hundred billion dollars represented by the equine industry in the U.S.
I suspect that the equine psychologist could find a job or create one in that industry.

[jeffkrol]

That is not the sole benefit of education, but I think it could be presumed that career preparedness is the primary if not sole reason someone would borrow tens of thousands of dollars to get an education.

No the 10 of thousands of dollars goes to support the million dollar football coach.. which in turns fuels revenue for both the college and local economy....
We have turned education into a for profit industry.. so who care what they study.....

To train engineers or chemists would only require 2-3 yrs "higher ed" max..... the rest is fluff (or to be "well rounded").........

I graduated w/ a BS in Botany.. talk about low demand.. at least locally.

When applying for related local jobs in my field usually required a "test" since most were gov. in origin (Civil Service)
What was revealing is that they were heavily weighted toward the practical (such as knowing "brand names" of herbicides ect.) .
A 1 semester course geared directly toward "industry" would have allowed me to actually compete since to be honest many tests seemed to have a bias to those already working (how many acres of park does the city possess ect.)..............

Then again tuition was only $300 a semester.......

My good friend went to Tech school for time study mngmt. and took his student loans and invested in the stock market (weighted in utilities) and made a bunch of money,
Graduated in 2 years and went to work almost immediately w/ a "good job" (albeit boring as heck to me) for a German firm that had a good presence in the city.

Point being.. College in general has too much side fluff to be totally practical as a career tool and in many areas has lost focus......
(MBA's, engineering, nursing, doctors, archetects being more the exception than the rule)

some of our local Senators have degrees in journalism......

funny world.........

US biggest mistake in my mind was eliminating apprenticeship programs (why pay someone to learn when you get them to pay YOU to learn),,,,,,,,,,,,

[GeneV]

That is not the sole benefit of education, but I think it could be presumed that career preparedness is the primary if not sole reason someone would borrow tens of thousands of dollars to get an education.

They should not be put in that position, and it is a relatively recent and unique predicament. However, it is well worth one's while to invest in personal development. Someone who learns to think and learn will better adapt to changes. Training for a particular skill set in today's world is a recipe for disappointment in just a few years. In my parent's generation (not your dreaded baby-boomers), education was less focused on a particular job and less costly.

[jeffkrol]

That is not the sole benefit of education, but I think it could be presumed that career preparedness is the primary if not sole reason someone would borrow tens of thousands of dollars to get an education.

did you ever talk to your classmates???

A long time ago someone wrote a book on Americans being faced w/ "overchoice".....and College is helpful to those lost souls who just have no real "career path" in mind..
UNFORTUNATELY that is magnitudes more costly today than in yesteryear..

It's not the College per se but the financial system........

The "financial burden" is relatively new (as compared to the old days when only "ivy league" schools actually were prohibitively costly).

A believe CA offered 2 years free tuition for residents to get them through this "decision period"...... before one was actually old enough (and w/ practical knowledge of what is required) to make the "commitment" to indebtedness.

Nowadays 2 years and you decide it is not right for you is an extreme financial burden to drop out and a kicker to continue.. no matter the outcome. cutting your losses is harder to do than gambling on the end justifying the expense.. A lot of small psychology here......

Only a minority of people out of high school are mature enough (except in their own mind) to understand 1) their "path" 2) their financial commitment..........

As a "long termer" w/ my BS (7 years due to personal situations) I even witnessed a few "boomerangs". Acquaintances who took jobs in their "career path" and decided it sucked.. returned to College to switch gears,,engineering was a harsh entry level mistress. My cousin. on the other hand settled right in to Kodak.. Wonder how he is doing now...... ???

Presumed, ass-u-me-d all the same.......

Just rambling..............

Gene you snuck in there.....

P.s. Pell "grants" were helpful.. too bad we now pretend we can't afford them.............

[dankoBanana]

I dont get it. Americans talk english right? Are the young in your country aware there is a whole world full of higher education institutions that would wellcome them for a lot lot less money than they would pay for USA education? Want to study medicine and don't want to pay a butload for it? go to Cuba. Cuba has the most educated doctors in the world (a lot of countries, including Croatia, send their doctors to Cuba to learn). The medical scholarship programme is entirely free as all costs are subsidised by the Cuban government. That includes tuition fees, food and accommodation (!!!). Engineering you say? European schools will we be delighted you came. EU has made a lot of progress to make it possible for students to study want they want, where they want in EU. And in English. Be smart, go abroad and study. Just like we used to come to the States decades ago.
Here in Croatia, students that come from abroad study free of tuition (imagine that). And its not like our schools are crap. People from my school also go to work for Google, Facebook and Microsoft. 6 years ago, one guy from Syria came to study here because it was too expensive to do so in his homeland. He spent his first year mastering the language, and then in 4 years finished his studies in Croatian!

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Last edited by dankoBanana; 04-26-2012 at 02:03 PM.

[GeneV]

I dont get it. Americans talk english right? Are the young in your country aware there is a whole world full of higher education institutions that would wellcome them for a lot lot less money than they would pay for USA education? Want to study medicine and don't want to pay a butload for it? go to Cuba.

Cuba is not an option if you ever want to come back.

I don't know about how Croatian degrees translate to the U.S., but the country looks beautiful, and the wine is good, too. If credentials work you could do a lot worse for 4 years.

[Winder]

I dont get it. Americans talk english right? Are the young in your country aware there is a whole world full of higher education institutions that would wellcome them for a lot lot less money than they would pay for USA education? Want to study medicine and don't want to pay a butload for it? go to Cuba. Cuba has the most educated doctors in the world (a lot of countries, including Croatia, send their doctors to Cuba to learn). The medical scholarship programme is entirely free as all costs are subsidised by the Cuban government. That includes tuition fees, food and accommodation (!!!). Engineering you say? European schools will we be delighted you came. EU has made a lot of progress to make it possible for students to study want they want, where they want in EU. And in English. Be smart, go abroad and study. Just like we used to come to the States decades ago.
Here in Croatia, students that come from abroad study free of tuition (imagine that). And its not like our schools are crap. People from my school also go to work for Google, Facebook and Microsoft. 6 years ago, one guy from Syria came to study here because it was too expensive to do so in his homeland. He spent his first year mastering the language, and then in 4 years finished his studies in Croatian!

We have a 50% drop out rate after two years. Which happens to be when the real classes start. The first two years are spent learning what use to be taught in high school and binge drinking. When they flunk out they only have $20,000 of taxpayer secured debt to worry about.

As long as the classes as easy, the beer is cheap and the girls are hot, Croatia could be a great option. How are the beaches on the Adriatic?

[dankoBanana]

Cuba is not an option if you ever want to come back.

I don't know about how Croatian degrees translate to the U.S., but the country looks beautiful, and the wine is good, too. If credentials work you could do a lot worse for 4 years.

well the first sentance isn't really true. as I said, many countries send their doctor to learn from cuban doctors.

really don't know about that one. I do know that the people I know that have Croatian degrees (which are equal to EU degrees) have had no problems getting into graduate schools in USA and Canada.

We have a 50% drop out rate after two years. Which happens to be when the real classes start. The first two years are spent learning what use to be taught in high school and binge drinking. When they flunk out they only have $20,000 of taxpayer secured debt to worry about.

As long as the classes as easy, the beer is cheap and the girls are hot, Croatia could be a great option. How are the beaches on the Adriatic?

well, I have some friends that went to highschool in the USA for their last (4th) year and they all agree that the curiculum is pretty basic, especially math. none of them had problems getting straight A's and scholarships for college. One of them even got a full scholarship for Yale. It seems that the bar is set too low in highschools in the USA.

the beaches and the women are the best in the world, and the food .... well check it out yourself http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqcg4o_anthony-bourdain-no-reservations-croatian-coast_travel
but photography equipment isn't on the cheap side

[jeffkrol]

When they flunk out they only have $20,000 of taxpayer secured debt to worry about.

Thus spoke the flat earthier.........Taxpayers don't "'Fund" anything anymore.. since the 70's. I realize how upsetting that reality could be to you.............

PRIMER on the REAL WORLD: Continue to ignore it as you deem fit........

More important is the fact that investors and economists have simply ignored the fact that the USA underwent drastic changes in 1971 when Nixon closed the gold window. In essence, the system underwent this dramatic overhaul, but the thinking never changed all that much. Overnight, theories and thinking should have been rewritten, but never truly were. Whether one likes it or not, we are operating in a truly fiat world. Therefore, the thinking and theory that are derived from this era are largely defunct. Modern Monetary Realism fills this void by describing how a state issued fiat monetary system operates.

UNDERSTANDING THE MODERN MONETARY SYSTEM | PRAGMATIC CAPITALISM

[GeneV]

well the first sentance isn't really true. as I said, many countries send their doctor to learn from cuban doctors.

What you may not know is that Americans can't legally travel to Cuba. It is a crime to go to medical school there. Students who try it may or may not get licensed here. Only one, so far, who has tried it has gotten as far as residency.

the beaches and the women are the best in the world, and the food .... well check it out yourself Anthony.Bourdain.No.Reservations - Croatian Coast - Video Dailymotion
but photography equipment isn't on the cheap side

I saw that episode of No Reservations last night. I've bought the Bibich wine here, as well. It was actually the same winery Bourdain visited.

[Winder]

Thus spoke the flat earthier.........Taxpayers don't "'Fund" anything anymore.. since the 70's. I realize how upsetting that reality could be to you.............

PRIMER on the REAL WORLD: Continue to ignore it as you deem fit........



UNDERSTANDING THE MODERN MONETARY SYSTEM | PRAGMATIC CAPITALISM

Did I say "FUNDED"?

I said SECURED by the taxpayer. Both subsidized and unsubsidized loans are guaranteed by the U.S. Department of Education either directly or through guaranty agencies.

Do you understand the difference in the meaning of those two words? Have you ever wondered why they are called FEDERAL STUDENT LOANS?

[jeffkrol]

Did I say "FUNDED"?

I said SECURED by the taxpayer. Both subsidized and unsubsidized loans are guaranteed by the U.S. Department of Education either directly or through guaranty agencies.

Do you understand the difference in the meaning of those two words? Have you ever wondered why they are called FEDERAL STUDENT LOANS?

when one defaults it is "funded" .. your splitting hairs..Of course the issuing entity must "try" to collect before handing it off.. As to secured.. if all are paid off it is a useless term.. no sense securing something if it is not needed to be secured (100% payoff rate)
AND the fed doesn't have to "bill you" to pay off any defaults.. they can just pay it.. You refuse to see your basic fallacy.........
nor do we need to "bond" our debt.. to me that is just a bank (or investor) federal "subsidy" .....

Ask yourself how many bonds were downgraded and their interest rate went down.. do you not find that suspicious in your way of looking at things???

For sovereigns with debt in their own fiat currency, there is not the operational constraint that families face. After all, they can go to the backyard and just pick some bills off their money tree – something we can’t do unless we want to go to jail. Italy can’t do that either.

I suggest you read "More thoughts on out of control deficit spending" from last March. Here are the takeaways:

"fiat money makes sovereign default less relevant but currency depreciation and inflation more relevant. And, no, a weaker currency and inflation do not equal default even if it feels like theft."
"Government can default on a fiat currency obligation. Doing so is a political decision not an economic one. The government can always make good on a claim in the money it has created if it chooses to do so. (See Russia, sovereign debt defaults, and fiat currency)."
"The question then is about political choices, resource allocation, currency depreciation and inflation. For example, in the U.S. there has been a lot of discussion about ‘starving the beast’ by shutting down the government until spending is brought to heel. This is an entirely political debate based on choices about the size of government and resource allocation in the economy. It has nothing to do with affordability. I think this kind of brinkmanship is reckless and deeply irresponsible. This is not the way you would see these issues debated in Switzerland or Germany for example. For bondholders, the political risk of potential default in the U.S. is real in a way they are not in those other two countries. There is a real possibility the U.S. could default. For that reason alone, the U.S. doesn’t deserve a AAA bond rating. (See Bill Gross: Deficit Hawk, Bond Vigilante)."
"we must always keep in mind the accounting identity which shows that government deficits are exactly equal to non-government sector surpluses. That is to say, in an open economy like the U.S., the private sector balance plus the current account balance is exactly offset by the government sector’s balance. Any movement in one balance necessarily moves the others."
"budget deficits are the result of an ex-post accounting identity. In plain English that means the policy prescriptions are the economic input and the deficit is the output. Focus on the policy and policy goals, not deficits."

Krugman, Tabarrok, Cowen and the bond vigilante fallacy | Credit Writedowns

you keep trying to "turn right" to avoid falling off flat earth. You think I'm saying "turn left" but in reality I'm saying the world is round and all your major fears anxieties and anger at the windmills is completely off base........ The bizarro world hasn't existed since 1972......

It's not how much the gov. spends but what they spend it on.. It's not how much the gov. taxes but how little (just enough to keep demand for currency up)

[dankoBanana]

What you may not know is that Americans can't legally travel to Cuba. It is a crime to go to medical school there. Students who try it may or may not get licensed here. Only one, so far, who has tried it has gotten as far as residency.

interesting. didnt know that. it is illegal because the cuban od american goverment says it illegal?

anyway, my whole point is money = acceptance. By taking loans and paying insane amounts of money for tuition, you vote for the system to stay how it is. when the young start to leave the USA to study abroad in large numbers, then you'll see some change.