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05-26-2012, 03:47 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
It's simple. It doesn't. Sadam made Dubya's daddy look bad, so Dubya wanted to spank him.
If the war had actually been tactical or strategic, there would have been clear cut goals set beforehand. Instead, the battle plan was "let's go in a-shootin', and see what happens."
That may have been a 'sponsoring thought' that gave this war some emotional resonance with the Prez... however, the Neocon analysis was that as the most 'advanced' and 'middle class ready' of the Arab countries, Iraq would become the model for other Arab/Muslim countries. See, the Iraqis were ready for Citibank, Coke, Halliburton, McDonalds, and so on. They would welcome American consumer culture, and embrace our version of democracy. When the neighbors saw the wealth and success of the average Iraqi, their governments had no choice but to follow suite.

This vision creates a stable middle class that transcends religious or tribal schism, and is a natural new market for Western multinationals. At the time (pre-war, and soon after) this was criticized as a Disney version of reality. But, that's what we got. And that's what Dubaya still believes, and explains why he insists in the long run he will be proven right.

05-26-2012, 03:48 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
He doesn't read his stuff before posting. It's why he comes off looking like a crazed loonie.
I read your stuff before posting. This is what caused me to become a crazed loonie.
05-26-2012, 06:35 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Unfortunately a 9/11 type of operation doesn't need state sponsors; terrorist groups are not necessarily tied down to one country and may even be home-grown.... The 9/11 terrorists completed their training in South Florida, should the US nuke itself?
?

ok so we don't look at countries and borders, so what did all the 911 terrorists, the shoe bomber, and the underwear bombers, also the uss cole bombers and the first world trade center bombers, Fort Hood, the country harbouring Bin Laden and the taliban and al queda all have in common?

help me out? what could we be branding as a terrorist network? What's the commonality? if there's a common thread, what could it be that turns all these people into mass murderers? perhaps they were all on crack cocaine? LSD? Republicans? What is it that f'd up these peoples minds? or were their minds already f'd up? if so what attracted them all to the same cause? What kind of group would want to attract people that messed up? What does that tell you?

Maybe the USA would just bomb Mecca if there is another terrorist attack? Would that be something that the terrorists would decide is too valuable to bring the wrath of the USA on?
truthfully... it is up to people that love Islam and believe in peace to kill/imprison/or overthrow all the extremists that use Islam to spread hate and violence. The real solution to the problem begins at the source.
Most Americans would argue against using a nuke ANYWHERE, and since it is a democracy, they won't. that reflects favourably on the USA.
My hypothetical rant is to challenge people to really think about what the world would be like if Americans (or all westerners) were really as bad as the average middle easterner thinks they are. Hand an american some pot and a burger and the average American will sit back on thier fat asses, spark one up and tell you point blank... "Peace Brother".. they really aren't the enemies to the average muslim in the middle east... the real enemies to the average muslim in the middle east is the mullas, and clerics, and dictators and monarchies that blame everything on Westerners...
the usa has not declared war on islam. if it had, mecca and medina would already be flattened... the usa has tried to focus on governments and individuals that sponsor terrorism... the real enemies to Islam are the terrorists and their supporters... they WILL eventually make a war against Islam happen....if they aren't stopped.

Last edited by D0n; 05-26-2012 at 07:27 PM.
05-26-2012, 09:23 PM   #64
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I am not sure what the intention of the OP's post was and how it morphed into the other things that I read in this thread. However, it seems like there were some ideas directed at whether the four planes actually caused the damage that occurred on 9/11, and what happened to WT7.

There was video evidence of the planes in NYC and DC. I am not sure why that is disputed.

For me it is indisputable that the planes that hit the twin towers ultimately caused them to collapse. Both planes hit low enough that the resulting mass above would have enough inertia to cause the floor plates below to pancake. The individual floors were not designed for the live dynamic loads of twenty+ floors to collapse onto them. The structural steel fireproofing and bar joist-to-structural-column connections at the perimeter of the building were significant weak points. The deformation of the steel due to the impact and heat was surely enough to cause the floor system to detach from its supports. I am not going to go through exhaustive research on why other highrise fires have not caused catastrophic collapses, but every circumstance is different. If the main structural elements were spared and the temperature was kept in check by a fire suppression system, then there may be no reason for collapse. I also don't think that Bin Laden, or anyone in Al Qaida, thought that the buildings would collapse when they planned the attack.

I also want to add that base isolation and/or the buildings' cycle of sway had nothing to do with the collapse of the twin towers. The structural connections on, and near, the floors of impact did. That is why a building with a so-called weaker structural system than the twin towers might be able to avoid structural failure under similar circumstances. However, comparing structural systems here is ambiguous at best.

The plane that hit the Pentagon caused damage outside its silhouette because large parts of the facade were contiguous, or tied together, by structural members and reinforcing.

Although someone stated that the other experts have never seen wreckage that resembled the wreckage in Shanksville, I would bet that it is entirely possible to have wreckage like that. There are many factors that could have resulted in such devastation - the plane's fuel load, the plane's construction and materials, the speed of impact, the angle of impact, the terrain that it crashed into, to name the most obvious. Again, every circumstance is different. Some people walk away from jet crashes. It might not be common, but it happens. Just like a jet could crash and cause such devastation that only very small pieces of the jet would be identifiable.

I don't know much about WT7. I believe that fires burned in WT7 for quite a bit longer than they did in the twin towers. The resultant heat could have caused structural members to deform. I am not sure that there was any way for fire fighters to get to WT7 given the destruction of things around it. It is also entirely possible that the fire suppression system was compromised, or insufficiently designed by today's standards.


Last edited by lammie200; 05-26-2012 at 10:04 PM.
05-26-2012, 10:47 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
?

ok so we don't look at countries and borders, so what did all the 911 terrorists, the shoe bomber, and the underwear bombers, also the uss cole bombers and the first world trade center bombers, Fort Hood, the country harbouring Bin Laden and the taliban and al queda all have in common?
Are you really this stupid? What they have in common is a universal hatred of the West in general and the USA in thinking that she has the right to be their puppet masters.
What more do they need than a realization that a country on the other side of the world has been pulling their collective strings for the past half century and they are fed up with being used?
05-27-2012, 05:04 AM - 1 Like   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
What more do they need than a realization that a country on the other side of the world has been pulling their collective strings for the past half century and they are fed up with being used?
If that's all the justification needed for terrorism, then why hasn't Canada attacked England?
05-27-2012, 05:17 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Are you really this stupid? What they have in common is a universal hatred of the West in general and the USA in thinking that she has the right to be their puppet masters.
What more do they need than a realization that a country on the other side of the world has been pulling their collective strings for the past half century and they are fed up with being used?
I'm sure of this much... they learned to hate the West, in Mosques.
many in the West are learning to hate Islam from the News media.
Looking forward.... and extrapolating from things learned in the past.....

If Islamic clerics and mullas keep preaching HATE, and Islamic Militants keep making the news... and Islam does not effectively separate church and state, then Islam is going to wind up having foreign powers declare war on it, sooner or later... Think I'm wrong? I think it's becoming a self fulfilling prophesy.
Read about it in the Quran....
05-27-2012, 07:11 AM   #68
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Did not learn to hate the west in Mosques.

american weapons and funding have been both injuring and killing people that are their friends and family. What else would one expect; if a weapon killed someone in your family (not just once but time after time) that showed the tems made in america.

america has to understand; whom are we as to judge and disctate the policies of the world. Perhaps america should take one hard look in the mirror of reality. america is far beyond the need to become more of a isolationist country, rather than a country that will fund and arm any cause. Didn't america think ahead.

05-27-2012, 07:22 AM - 1 Like   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Did not learn to hate the west in Mosques.

american weapons and funding have been both injuring and killing people that are their friends and family. What else would one expect; if a weapon killed someone in your family (not just once but time after time) that showed the tems made in america.

america has to understand; whom are we as to judge and disctate the policies of the world. Perhaps america should take one hard look in the mirror of reality. america is far beyond the need to become more of a isolationist country, rather than a country that will fund and arm any cause. Didn't america think ahead.
Again choices and blame....weapons bought by muslims used to kill muslims to enforce muslim sharia laws, and fight out muslim squabbles, again international customers pay for oil, instead of using the oil money to feed and provide for their people the muslim leaders use it for violence, use the violence to control their people, then lay blame on everybody but themselves and the lack of separation between church and state, means it is all done through mosques.
also there are a lot of soviet and chinese weapons being bought and used...
It is a homegrown problem, and the solution starts when people like you stop using propaganda to divert blame from where it belongs take responsibility. The most peaceful, least painful solution to Islamic extremism is to have moderate Islamists take up arms against their own religious and political oppressors. Stop blaming others. To the moderate muslims in the middle east I say: the more extremists you kill on your own, (both physically and ideologically) the less likely you'll ever see a foreign army on Islamic soil.
Don't blame the people selling the guns. If your leaders were asking to buy food and agriculture equipment, hospital equipment, water desalinization plants, and other things to improve your daily lives, we would happily sell them that too. Trade is a supply and demand process... your leaders asked for weapons, that is what we sold them...

it's not the weapons that kill people it's the people holding the weapons that kill people.
put the gun down, it won't kill anybody.
take the gun from the fanatic, and he'll keep trying to kill you.
so how do you reduce the number of fanatics? you preach peace and disarm them, kill any that won't disarm. Not an easy or quick process, but better than having a foreigner come in and do it for you, because you did nothing.

To the avearge muslim in the middle east I'd say this:
in my church and my country this is considered bad parenting:

and you're gonna blame somebody half way around the world for all your problems when you could have bought your kid a bicycle?
that photo was from the 70's... yesterdays generation brainwashed into violence and murder is now raising this generation of kids...
I was riding a bicycle while your religious leaders, political leaders and parents brainwashed you. I wasn't your enemy then, and my little boy outside on his bicycle isn't your enemy now. If you come over here, blowing stuff up, killing people, then yes, I'll vote for any government policy that keeps your violence off our soil.

Last edited by D0n; 05-27-2012 at 08:17 AM.
05-27-2012, 08:54 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
If that's all the justification needed for terrorism, then why hasn't Canada attacked England?
Britain has not been a messenger of mischief and instability to Canada.
05-27-2012, 08:57 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
I'm sure of this much... they learned to hate the West, in Mosques.
many in the West are learning to hate Islam from the News media.
Looking forward.... and extrapolating from things learned in the past.....

If Islamic clerics and mullas keep preaching HATE, and Islamic Militants keep making the news... and Islam does not effectively separate church and state, then Islam is going to wind up having foreign powers declare war on it, sooner or later... Think I'm wrong? I think it's becoming a self fulfilling prophesy.
Read about it in the Quran....
What does this have to do with the post you replied to?
05-27-2012, 09:00 AM   #72
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QuoteQuote:
My 9/11 issues that remain a mystery
What mystery ?
05-27-2012, 09:06 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
<horsesh!t snipped>
It is a homegrown problem,
<stupid inanities snipped>
You are completely clueless. The west has been interfering in the Middle East for centuries, but has really gotten into high gear since the end of WWII. We export mayhem to their countries, we destabilize their governments to keep the region on edge, we are deliberately doing this in order to exploit them, and you somehow think this is a homegrown for them problem?
Dude, it's our homegrown hubris, thinking we have a right to dictate how they run their countries. There are Muslim countries out there that are at peace with the world and are not causing anyone any problems. The difference between the at peace ones and the ones that harbour what we refer to as terrorists is that we haven't been screwing with the peaceful ones because they don't have anything we want.
It's amazing that anyone can be so uneducated and blinded by petty prejudice.
05-27-2012, 09:10 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Britain has not been a messenger of mischief and instability to Canada.
Seven Years' War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
History of Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canada?United Kingdom relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
France vs England

England is no longer a messenger of mischief and instability in Canada. Hell we even won a brief war with the USA.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812.. Yet despite being born of French and English occupations of Aboriginal lands, we as a society have NOT adopted the theology that drives the violence in the Middle East, although we did have religious strife, it seemed to settle down after confederation and separation of church and state. Now as soon as our government honours the original land treaties with the aboriginals and raises their standards of living up from third world standards, I think Canada could prove to be a shining example of how democracy, human rights, and gun control could be a role model to the Middle East.
Do you think the Palestinians and Israeli's can kiss and make up the way Canada and Britain did? (we're like best friends now! see?: ). or is that whole "forgive and forget" thing something only Christians practice?

Last edited by D0n; 05-27-2012 at 09:20 AM.
05-27-2012, 10:48 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You are completely clueless. The west has been interfering in the Middle East for centuries, but has really gotten into high gear since the end of WWII. We export mayhem to their countries, we destabilize their governments to keep the region on edge, we are deliberately doing this in order to exploit them, and you somehow think this is a homegrown for them problem?
Dude, it's our homegrown hubris, thinking we have a right to dictate how they run their countries. There are Muslim countries out there that are at peace with the world and are not causing anyone any problems. The difference between the at peace ones and the ones that harbour what we refer to as terrorists is that we haven't been screwing with the peaceful ones because they don't have anything we want.
It's amazing that anyone can be so uneducated and blinded by petty prejudice.
after world war two...there was memo that went around..... "war is over".. people in the middle east kept on killing.
Just because someone offers you money to betray your people or kill your countrymen doesn't mean they forced you to do it.
The foreign countries that do business in the middle east aren't the cause of the problem.... even before ww1 there was a problem...
having to deal with people like this:
Haj Amin al-Husseini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
QuoteQuote:
Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy
was the problem... so the USA's meddling in the middle east AFTER ww2 aside from protecting trade is to prevent another world war, and to prevent another holocaust. Corruption is nothing new to politics, but the violence in the middle east is a cultural issue. The whole population seems to be addicted to violence.
Even if the rest of the world cut off trade with the middle east, the killing would not stop, in fact it'd get worse as these countries do not produce much of anything but hydrocarbons to support their people, and starving people will turn on each other over diminishing resources.

Last edited by D0n; 05-27-2012 at 11:07 AM.
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