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06-28-2012, 09:01 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Some of us just see different problems in a complex world requiring different solutions, and we don't have blind faith in a single system or idea which cures all ills.
And the point of free-markets is that everyone is free to seek a different solution. There is no one solution mandated by government and forced down the throat of a population. A free society should be based on cooperation, not coercion.


Last edited by Winder; 06-28-2012 at 09:09 PM.
06-29-2012, 12:21 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
And the point of free-markets is that everyone is free to seek a different solution. There is no one solution mandated by government and forced down the throat of a population. A free society should be based on cooperation, not coercion.
"Free" markets don't really have a "point." Markets involve competition as much or more than cooperation. Sometimes government intervention makes us more free by removing something shoved down our throats by others who have acquired the physical or economic power to do so. Sometimes democratic government is how we achieve and express "cooperation." Sometimes it is in the way and sometimes it is the only way.

Again, the quoted statement is charged with black and white belief that unfettered markets are always some kind of utopian good and government is always about shoving something down your throat.

But this is really off topic.
06-29-2012, 05:58 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
And the point of free-markets is that everyone is free to seek a different solution. There is no one solution mandated by government and forced down the throat of a population. A free society should be based on cooperation, not coercion.
If you want to see (and I know that you don't) what your type of "free society" ends up looking like - read some 19th century history or even some Charles Dickens novels might make it more palatable for you.
06-29-2012, 06:07 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevewig Quote
If you want to see (and I know that you don't) what your type of "free society" ends up looking like - read some 19th century history or even some Charles Dickens novels might make it more palatable for you.
For a more modern example, take a good look at Somalia.

06-29-2012, 06:12 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I just left a small business meeting tonight were one of the members has moved all former employees over to 1099 contract workers. She has less than 25, but she was just tired of all the cost and paperwork in managing that part of the business. No more workers comp, no more unemployment insurance to pay, no more vacation, no more medical. Her sales staff has always been 1099, but last year she moved her fabrication and installation staff over to 1099.

Has the gap between rich & poor gotten smaller with more government regulation? Banking, healthcare, & insurance are the most heavily regulated industries in this country and they just seem to be getting richer.

These social programs don't fix anything. Has public education improved since Carter? Have we seen a decline in the number of people living below the poverty line?

.....

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/kopczuk-saez-songQJE10mobility.pdf
“long-term mobility has increased significantly over the last five decades.”
http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/wwwpewtrustsorg/Reports/Economic_Mobi...%20EM%2014.pdf
....confirms that American children from low income homes with high test scores have extraordinary high income mobility.

Neither of these studies were done by a right-wing think tank. Both of them show rising income mobility.
Do you actually read the studies you linked? You are using the word "mobility" to mean something that the studies don't indicate is happening--real, broad-based progress. The studies show the gap between rich and poor has increased during the period regulation and progressive taxation have decreased. The first linked study concludes
QuoteQuote:
Therefore, in contrast to the stock-option scenario mentioned above, the SSA data show very clearly that [short term] mobility has not mitigated the dramatic increase in annual earnings concentration
That paper also studies since the New Deal, and indicates that inequality was decreasing during the booming (and more highly taxed) 50s, and zoomed upwards after policies started to change.

The conclusion of the second report:

QuoteQuote:
The report confirmed the findings of previous Economic Mobility Project reports that showed “stickiness” at the bottom and top of the income distribution. In addition, new measures of upward mobility suggest that there is some modest degree of upward economic mobility among those who start in the bottom half of the income distribution
Picking post-Carter as a starting point, I'd say no, there has been no big improvement in education and poverty. However, that is the point at which our economic policy took a big right turn toward a more "free" market. After the social programs were first enacted, there was a big drop in poverty.

The biggest impediment on forms is the system where state local governments tax and regulate separately. I wonder which movement in America wants to push more control to the states and cities?

Last edited by GeneV; 06-29-2012 at 07:06 AM.
07-01-2012, 10:52 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
This is not a poll about whether President Bush had intelligence in 2002 which gave him reason to believe there were WMD in Iraq. This is a poll in hindsight. Today, after 10 years of searching an occupied Iraq produced no evidence whatsoever that Iraq had WMD in 2002, almost two-thirds of Republicans still, in 2012, believe they existed. George Bush admitted long ago (in 2006) that WMD did not turn out to exist, but those who support him hang on.


Bingo, Gene.

Jack, The fact is, what Saddam used in 1988, the Reagan administration *sold* him during the Iran-Iraq war. The expiration date on the last of it was 1992. The stuff remains poisonous for longer, but that doesn't mean it remains 'weaponized,' ... Saddam was, basically, *bluffing his own people and his neighbors* about it. This is long since known, actually, more than that, that in all this time, there was no such things found as were used to deceive the people and Congress about the excuse for the war.
07-02-2012, 07:56 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Saddam was, basically, *bluffing his own people and his neighbors* about it.
Kinda backfired on him, didn't it?
07-02-2012, 01:01 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Kinda backfired on him, didn't it?
Which doesn't make the conservatives here *right on the facts, does it?*


(We hear it a lot, how on factual matters, Fox News viewers are *worse* on the facts than random chance or people who don't watch any news at all.)

07-02-2012, 02:33 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Which doesn't make the conservatives here *right on the facts, does it?*
Didn't say it did. Just making a smart-ass comment an observation.

Last edited by Parallax; 07-02-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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