Fast and Furious

Blue · 07-03-2012, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by jogiba

Project Gunrunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bush was POTUS in 2006.

The failure to track allowed straw purchases are what is in question here. Cats cover stuff up. Apparently there is poop in the litter box or Eric "I never met a terrorist I didn't like" Holder wouldn't be in the litter box. It really came down to what did "Eric Holder not know and when did he not know it." He got caught in a lie which in his profession is called perjury.

For the record, I don't think it was Wikepedia that was subpoenaed be the Oversight Committee.

**Jack** · 07-09-2012, 07:11 PM

DOJ Reveals Brian Terry Was Shooting Bean Bags At Men Who Killed Him

You Tube

seacapt · 07-10-2012, 08:40 AM

Bean bags? Why would border patrol agents be armed only with ammo designed for crowd / riot control? All the agents involved were shooting non lethal rounds according to another report. Kinda like going to a sword fight with a boken.

Correction- it said only non lethal rounds were fired. So what were the guys with the real bullets doing?

**Jack** · 07-10-2012, 09:59 AM

Was Fast and Furious Meant to Prepare Americans to Embrace the Arms Trade Treaty?
Ironically, 2009 was also the year in which Obama signaled that his administration would be willing to take part in U.N. negotiations on the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), a treaty aimed at instituting international gun control measures on guns crossing borders between countries: and these gun control measures will eventually have to include gun registration if the treaty is to work.

Breaking News: Iran Will Oversee Discussions on National Gun Registration Treaty

seacapt · 09-21-2012, 07:59 PM

Gee how odd .... nobody here wants to talk about this... wonder why?

President Obama Falsely Claims Fast and Furious Program “Begun Under the Previous Administration” - ABC News

Fast and Furious: Justice Department report faults 14 officials - latimes.com

Darrell Issa Won't Halt 'Fast and Furious' Probe | Obama

seacapt · 09-23-2012, 06:32 AM

I'm still waiting for an answer. Is it possible that there is no discussion because our lib pals don't like the truth about this ?
Just askin'

kswier · 09-23-2012, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by seacapt

I'm still waiting for an answer. Is it possible that there is no discussion because our lib pals don't like the truth about this ?
Just askin'

I think it is obvious it was a huge blunder. And one Obama's administration is trying to cover up (I would expect no less from any politician).

Is it an election breaker? I don't think so. I think almost every president has blunders that are embarrassing and that they try and sweep under the rug. For instance, Bush had weapons of mass destruction (which was a much worse blunder than Fast and Furious, if you ask me). I am too young to have paid attention to Clinton, but I am sure he had his policy blunders. Reagan, one of the most popular presidents among conservatives, also had his blunders (The Iran-Contra Affair...Iran?Contra affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Conservatives seem to want to use this as an example that shows Obama is incompetent. While it was a huge blunder, similar blunders (and much worse blunders) have been made throughout history. If Obama is incompetent because of this, then Bush was definitely incompetent, and so was Clinton, and so was Reagan, and I am sure the list can go on, I think the truth is that presidents are given a lot of responsibility over a huge variety of projects. Some projects will slip through the cracks, and some will be huge mistakes (for any president...democrat or republican).

I think the reason no one is commenting is because there is no discussion to be had. Everybody agreed it is a huge blunder. It appears as if Obama had some knowledge of it (thought the extent of his knowledge is not clear), and that they are trying to cover it up before the election. It is hard to carry out a debate when there is no debate to be had

.

jeffkrol · 09-23-2012, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by seacapt

I'm still waiting for an answer. Is it possible that there is no discussion because our lib pals don't like the truth about this ?
Just askin'

Hmmm lets see significant danger w/ a few arms vs destabilizing the Mideast w/ a war...........and killing thousands.or 10's of thousands..or 10's of thousands..
And we should rattle some more sabres in the mideast why???

More American "exceptionalism"????

I'm sorry there is no moral high ground on either side...........

They tried a plan it it failed miserably.. tell me something we haven't done before... and you think I obsess........

I take it you read the 512 page report...

i take it you read the 512 page report...........

IF you want a trial how about starting w/ bush's war crimes.. opps can't confuse the two.. need to compartmentalize one vs the other..

OK "fast and furious".. BAD

Happy???

soo lets go blow up another country somewhere.. How about Russia??? LOL

I take it you read the 512 page report...
http://documents.latimes.com/fast-and-furious-oig-report/

larryinlc · 09-23-2012, 09:16 AM

Operation Wide Receiver, Fast & Furious, Gun Walking. Pick your verbiage. They were pretty much one in the same under different administrations and they were all stupid. But, if you insist on calling out this president on the blunder, so be it. I guess the right needs a bone once and a while too. Heck, I'm sure this will show up in a Romney for president attack ad soon enough. I don't believe this to be an impeachable offense. If it were, we'd never have an elected official last more than a month into their term. I think they're all charter members of the Elmer Gantry school of con artistry..

Larry

Tom S. · 09-23-2012, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by seacapt

Gee how odd .... nobody here wants to talk about this... wonder why?

President Obama Falsely Claims Fast and Furious Program “Begun Under the Previous Administration” - ABC News

That is partially true, and partially false. The Fast & Furious 'sting' was initiated under Obama, but it was an extention of a program that was started under the Bush administration. So both sides share the blame in this fiasco.

Rico · 09-24-2012, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Tom S.

That is partially true, and partially false. The Fast & Furious 'sting' was initiated under Obama, but it was an extention of a program that was started under the Bush administration. So both sides share the blame in this fiasco.

Both sides don't share the blame in this fiasco.

Fast & Furious was completely implemented by the Obama White House starting in October of 2009. Fast & Furious just let thousands of guns walk without any plan to actually track the guns. The only intent of Fast & Furious was for guns that the Federal government forced gun shops to illegally sell to criminals was for those guns to be used in crimes which now include who knows how many hundreds if not thousands of murders. Both here in the United States and Mexico.

What took place when President Bush was in office the program that ATF implemented attempted to actually track the guns they let walk by putting tracking devices into the guns so they could attempt to locate the guns. It did not work. The program was cancelled by President Bush's Justice Department because of this flaw.

President Obama continues to lie by claiming what he implemented Fast & Furious was started by President Bush. Holder has been caught lying to congress retracting earlier testimony were he lied about what Justice knew and when as though it was no big deal.

You guys can crow on about what other Presidents have done well guess what as President Obama himself exclaimed at the Democrat National Convention that he is the President.

Just like any Cult of Personality Obama no matter how the evidence proves him as the fraud that he is as he lies and lies his supporters will protect him at all cost in the face of reality.

Parallax · 09-24-2012, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Tom S.

So both sides share the blame in this fiasco.

No, they don't both get the blame. The pilot at the helm when a ship runs aground gets the blame. It doesn't matter who was steering when it left port.

Tom S. · 09-24-2012, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

No, they don't both get the blame. The pilot at the helm when a ship runs aground gets the blame. It doesn't matter who was steering when it left port.

I might agree except in this case, both operations were outside the law. The only difference was one blew up on them and one didn't. It is too bad though that Holder didn't man up to it and either fire those responsible, or if the blame stopped at his desk, resign.

Tom S. · 09-24-2012, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Rico

Just like any Cult of Personality Obama no matter how the evidence proves him as the fraud that he is as he lies and lies his supporters will protect him at all cost in the face of reality.

If you substituted the name Bush for Obama, your statement would have just as much credibility.

Some day, I hope in my lifetime, people will stop being Democrats or Republicans and become independent thinkers.

Blue · 09-24-2012, 08:17 PM

The I.C.E. and Border Patrol agents weren't killed under the Bush Regime. On top of that, these guys were armed with bean bag guns and the criminals were using ATF provided real guns with real bullets. The ultimate goal of Holder was to create a situation for their gun ban agenda by showing a crisis. Never let a crisis go to waist. If there isn't one, create one. That is the problem with a Chicago Thug lawyer making Attorney General. He went from an assistant A.G. to representing terrorists to A.G. The guys moral compass should have been scrutinized.

07-10-2012, 08:40 AM	#18
seacapt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Carolina , USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,271	Bean bags? Why would border patrol agents be armed only with ammo designed for crowd / riot control? All the agents involved were shooting non lethal rounds according to another report. Kinda like going to a sword fight with a boken. Correction- it said only non lethal rounds were fired. So what were the guys with the real bullets doing? Last edited by seacapt; 07-10-2012 at 03:31 PM.

09-21-2012, 07:59 PM	#20
seacapt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Carolina , USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,271	Gee how odd .... nobody here wants to talk about this... wonder why? President Obama Falsely Claims Fast and Furious Program “Begun Under the Previous Administration” - ABC News Fast and Furious: Justice Department report faults 14 officials - latimes.com Darrell Issa Won't Halt 'Fast and Furious' Probe \| Obama Last edited by seacapt; 09-22-2012 at 06:34 AM.

09-23-2012, 08:28 AM	#23
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by seacapt I'm still waiting for an answer. Is it possible that there is no discussion because our lib pals don't like the truth about this ? Just askin' Hmmm lets see significant danger w/ a few arms vs destabilizing the Mideast w/ a war...........and killing thousands.or 10's of thousands..or 10's of thousands.. And we should rattle some more sabres in the mideast why??? More American "exceptionalism"???? I'm sorry there is no moral high ground on either side........... They tried a plan it it failed miserably.. tell me something we haven't done before... and you think I obsess........ I take it you read the 512 page report... i take it you read the 512 page report........... IF you want a trial how about starting w/ bush's war crimes.. opps can't confuse the two.. need to compartmentalize one vs the other.. OK "fast and furious".. BAD Happy??? soo lets go blow up another country somewhere.. How about Russia??? LOL I take it you read the 512 page report... http://documents.latimes.com/fast-and-furious-oig-report/ Last edited by jeffkrol; 09-23-2012 at 08:55 AM.

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07-03-2012, 11:30 AM	#16
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by jogiba Project Gunrunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Bush was POTUS in 2006. The failure to track allowed straw purchases are what is in question here. Cats cover stuff up. Apparently there is poop in the litter box or Eric "I never met a terrorist I didn't like" Holder wouldn't be in the litter box. It really came down to what did "Eric Holder not know and when did he not know it." He got caught in a lie which in his profession is called perjury. For the record, I don't think it was Wikepedia that was subpoenaed be the Oversight Committee.

07-10-2012, 09:59 AM	#19
Jack Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Georgia Photos: Gallery Posts: 197 Original Poster	Was Fast and Furious Meant to Prepare Americans to Embrace the Arms Trade Treaty? Ironically, 2009 was also the year in which Obama signaled that his administration would be willing to take part in U.N. negotiations on the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), a treaty aimed at instituting international gun control measures on guns crossing borders between countries: and these gun control measures will eventually have to include gun registration if the treaty is to work. Breaking News: Iran Will Oversee Discussions on National Gun Registration Treaty

09-23-2012, 06:32 AM	#21
seacapt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Carolina , USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,271	I'm still waiting for an answer. Is it possible that there is no discussion because our lib pals don't like the truth about this ? Just askin'

09-23-2012, 08:11 AM	#22
kswier Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 426	Originally posted by seacapt I'm still waiting for an answer. Is it possible that there is no discussion because our lib pals don't like the truth about this ? Just askin' I think it is obvious it was a huge blunder. And one Obama's administration is trying to cover up (I would expect no less from any politician). Is it an election breaker? I don't think so. I think almost every president has blunders that are embarrassing and that they try and sweep under the rug. For instance, Bush had weapons of mass destruction (which was a much worse blunder than Fast and Furious, if you ask me). I am too young to have paid attention to Clinton, but I am sure he had his policy blunders. Reagan, one of the most popular presidents among conservatives, also had his blunders (The Iran-Contra Affair...Iran?Contra affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Conservatives seem to want to use this as an example that shows Obama is incompetent. While it was a huge blunder, similar blunders (and much worse blunders) have been made throughout history. If Obama is incompetent because of this, then Bush was definitely incompetent, and so was Clinton, and so was Reagan, and I am sure the list can go on, I think the truth is that presidents are given a lot of responsibility over a huge variety of projects. Some projects will slip through the cracks, and some will be huge mistakes (for any president...democrat or republican). I think the reason no one is commenting is because there is no discussion to be had. Everybody agreed it is a huge blunder. It appears as if Obama had some knowledge of it (thought the extent of his knowledge is not clear), and that they are trying to cover it up before the election. It is hard to carry out a debate when there is no debate to be had .

09-23-2012, 09:16 AM	#24
larryinlc Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 993	Operation Wide Receiver, Fast & Furious, Gun Walking. Pick your verbiage. They were pretty much one in the same under different administrations and they were all stupid. But, if you insist on calling out this president on the blunder, so be it. I guess the right needs a bone once and a while too. Heck, I'm sure this will show up in a Romney for president attack ad soon enough. I don't believe this to be an impeachable offense. If it were, we'd never have an elected official last more than a month into their term. I think they're all charter members of the Elmer Gantry school of con artistry.. Larry

09-23-2012, 09:20 AM	#25
Tom S. Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Michigan Photos: Albums Posts: 4,317	Originally posted by seacapt Gee how odd .... nobody here wants to talk about this... wonder why? President Obama Falsely Claims Fast and Furious Program “Begun Under the Previous Administration” - ABC News That is partially true, and partially false. The Fast & Furious 'sting' was initiated under Obama, but it was an extention of a program that was started under the Bush administration. So both sides share the blame in this fiasco.

09-24-2012, 10:50 AM	#26
Rico Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,204	Originally posted by Tom S. That is partially true, and partially false. The Fast & Furious 'sting' was initiated under Obama, but it was an extention of a program that was started under the Bush administration. So both sides share the blame in this fiasco. Both sides don't share the blame in this fiasco. Fast & Furious was completely implemented by the Obama White House starting in October of 2009. Fast & Furious just let thousands of guns walk without any plan to actually track the guns. The only intent of Fast & Furious was for guns that the Federal government forced gun shops to illegally sell to criminals was for those guns to be used in crimes which now include who knows how many hundreds if not thousands of murders. Both here in the United States and Mexico. What took place when President Bush was in office the program that ATF implemented attempted to actually track the guns they let walk by putting tracking devices into the guns so they could attempt to locate the guns. It did not work. The program was cancelled by President Bush's Justice Department because of this flaw. President Obama continues to lie by claiming what he implemented Fast & Furious was started by President Bush. Holder has been caught lying to congress retracting earlier testimony were he lied about what Justice knew and when as though it was no big deal. You guys can crow on about what other Presidents have done well guess what as President Obama himself exclaimed at the Democrat National Convention that he is the President. Just like any Cult of Personality Obama no matter how the evidence proves him as the fraud that he is as he lies and lies his supporters will protect him at all cost in the face of reality.

09-24-2012, 11:03 AM	#27
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by Tom S. So both sides share the blame in this fiasco. No, they don't both get the blame. The pilot at the helm when a ship runs aground gets the blame. It doesn't matter who was steering when it left port.

09-24-2012, 11:35 AM	#28
Tom S. Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Michigan Photos: Albums Posts: 4,317	Originally posted by Parallax No, they don't both get the blame. The pilot at the helm when a ship runs aground gets the blame. It doesn't matter who was steering when it left port. I might agree except in this case, both operations were outside the law. The only difference was one blew up on them and one didn't. It is too bad though that Holder didn't man up to it and either fire those responsible, or if the blame stopped at his desk, resign.

09-24-2012, 11:41 AM	#29
Tom S. Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Michigan Photos: Albums Posts: 4,317	Originally posted by Rico Just like any Cult of Personality Obama no matter how the evidence proves him as the fraud that he is as he lies and lies his supporters will protect him at all cost in the face of reality. If you substituted the name Bush for Obama, your statement would have just as much credibility. Some day, I hope in my lifetime, people will stop being Democrats or Republicans and become independent thinkers.

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09-24-2012, 08:17 PM	#30
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	The I.C.E. and Border Patrol agents weren't killed under the Bush Regime. On top of that, these guys were armed with bean bag guns and the criminals were using ATF provided real guns with real bullets. The ultimate goal of Holder was to create a situation for their gun ban agenda by showing a crisis. Never let a crisis go to waist. If there isn't one, create one. That is the problem with a Chicago Thug lawyer making Attorney General. He went from an assistant A.G. to representing terrorists to A.G. The guys moral compass should have been scrutinized.