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07-04-2012, 04:42 AM   #31
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I'm a pretty good sized guy and I hate seeing someone pick on someone by using thier size. I've actually pulled a guy off of a girl before, told her to go find her mom, sister, etc., to get out of there, and to never put up with an abuser like that again. I then showed the guy how it felt to be picked on by someone alot bigger than he was, and told him not to do it again. I hope the lesson stuck for both of them.

07-04-2012, 11:04 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by cmohr Quote
Crikey M, no good, somebody attacking you, I'm glad to hear you bested that Ar$$h0le!!!!!. But I hope I never annoy you, I'd still be checking under the bed, even tho I'm on the otherside of the planet....

cmohr
Better check IN it, because you'd never know what was in there if you really ticked me off. I once put a whole box of my Dad's fishing worms, a particularly slimy and disgusting thing, in one of my brother's beds when he ate an entire box of my very limited and absolutely favorite cereal in one sitting on purpose just to mess with me. Went into bed in the dark and WHAM. I never saw someone bolt out of bed so fast! I think I was about 4? He later jokingly told my Dad I should have 666 tattooed on my head he was so scared of what toddler me would get up to sometimes in retaliation. But he earned that little maneuver. That cereal was a very special treat. I could only get it at Halloween usually and my parents bought it for ME. I wasn't supposed to have to share that. Let alone not get any because he ate it all to torment me.

My bother is no saint himself. This is the same guy who left me and my little toddler bladder tied literally to a tree one time as a stupid joke. He wanted me to say "uncle" and I wouldn't so he tied me up and ran off to play. (He's like 6 years older than me so I am talking a 10 year old at least here.) An hour later he ran back guilty as all heck having forgotten me and asked again before he'd release me? No "uncle" from me and my bladder was about to explode. I didn't know the F word back then or I'd have used it all right. Only time I ever saw my Dad whip his arse. My parents were just furious with him. He was supposed to be watching me and he left me tied up on a beach, alone, at like 3 or 4, I forget how old actually but it was way before I ever went to school. I was really little but mobile as I recall.

I was mostly a good little kid but I was perfectly capable even then of being a little viscous little bitch when truly angered. I actually get that from my Mom I think. Same deal. Not to be messed with, ever, if you have any smarts at all. My Mom? You crossed her and you lived to rue it. When my Dad says I take after my Mom that way? It's not so much a compliment as it is something he's expressing real angst over. I think I worried him sometimes growing up. My siblings actually called me "the baby psychopath" more than a few times behind my back apparently. LOL
07-05-2012, 07:32 PM   #33
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Well, good going, Mags. (Fast is good, especially with something like that: blitz like that, that's usually the best moment to turn the tables. No real accounting for random f-heads that way, just take em down, figure it out later. )



QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
I'm a pretty good sized guy and I hate seeing someone pick on someone by using thier size. I've actually pulled a guy off of a girl before, told her to go find her mom, sister, etc., to get out of there, and to never put up with an abuser like that again. I then showed the guy how it felt to be picked on by someone alot bigger than he was, and told him not to do it again. I hope the lesson stuck for both of them.
Well, it's always nice when someone around 'mans up' about stuff like that, it can save a lot of grief.

It's one of the things about people like Norris teaching repsonsibility about stuff like martial arts, and out the other side of the mouth, spewing that homophobic 'You kind of people are enemies of my God and my masculinity, so civilized rules don't apply to you,' and all that. Which is why the hate crimes are different from regular crimes: if you're a minority or two, especially in the under-classes, you never know when someone decides it's their day to act on that teaching. We live with that every day, especially if we spent our younger days getting beaten up and to ld 'it's your fault, just take it, or you're the problem,' (until you finally say 'Screw this' and fight back anyway. That was apparently a pretty spectactuar day that way, in my case.) But, y'know, when it comes to homophobes, self-appointed witch-hunters, etc, you've pretty much got to operate on the presumption it's for keeps, and they wouldn't stop with taking your money or stuff or anything.

Intervening in domestics, well, it's sometimes kind of thankless, even if it's the right thing to do, (You'd have to be on the receiving end of it to really get it, or be on the police force a long time, maybe. My Da taught me all about that from a pretty young age, really. He'd talk about work, sometimes. ) Anyway, I often found it pretty effective to just walk right up and directly look at them. Abusers will do their own arguing with themselves at you while the victim's off running the other way. You don't even have to say anything. Of course, it helps to be a little crazy and be able to handle it if it goes bad.

But, especially in numbers, if people would just *stand there silently and not look away,* a lot of this stuff you see out there just wouldn't need to be happening. That'd be good for bullying, too: someone can play 'hero of the hour,' but if the crowd's backing them up and witnessing instead of ignoring and/or hooting and hollering, the message would get across right quick. (It's always appreciated, though, when there's big guys around being solid citizens. I'll tell you one thing, with age and more illness, it's been quite an adjustment: I still often am about the fightey-est one in a given crowd, but it can feel pretty vulnerable out there. (It's kind of a relief my sweetie's out of this place, honestly. It sometimes does make me miss a number of my old friends if I'm not exactly feeling up to taking on Chuck Norris.


(Left this post unfinished a day or three. Fact is, anything Norris does to claim to stand for anything positive, the anti-LGBT rights agenda is once again doing more harm than a world without paying attention to Chuck Norris ever could.

His Christian Right theories about how people like me and my sweetie (and her Christian family) *deserve* the results of this, somehow just don't meet with reality, any more than even Chuck Norris actually ought to try a roundhouse kick at me.


How would you feel, half a continent away and *everyone* worrying when someone's in the hospital, and who the dearest one in the world wants to talk to, can't cause she's that distance away and can't be contacted for days?

People like Chuck Norris and the Christian Right claim it's both *imperative* that LGBT people and everyone we love be put through this, and also that it doesn't actually do any harm.

Wrong on both.

I've got pretty Jedi-like rules about ever stiking from anger, whatever the circumstances, but he wouldn't wan't to talk that line at me tonight. What it is, is *sad.* Pathetic. Weak. In all the ways he fears leaving people like me *be* over. I can be *very* focused about that. And that's not just posturing. He knows better, I know better, and that's where the chi is. Argue or justify or not.
07-05-2012, 08:28 PM - 1 Like   #34
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The thing is I was bullied too, so I know how it was. I also got the physical abuse growing up. That's why I am slow to anger, and why I WILL stop it if I see it.

I'm also a Christian, but one who actually read what Jesus was all about. Seriously, it's not our place to judge, and we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, even if they are Muslim, gay, Mexican, etc., there is NO qualified on that. People who use Christianity as an excuse for hatered are the goats that Jesus will say, "Depart from me because I never knew you" when they tell him, "Didn't we do all these great things in your name?" Yeah, the whole God is a slot machine, and we love our brothers, but only if they look and act like us and fit in as one of the beautiful people. Ohh, I could go on for a while. I even used to preach revivals, but got sick of what I saw.

Here's a good filter to look at life. 1. Does it hurt me? If yes, stay away, if no move to #2. 2. Does it hurt anyone else but the person doing it? If yes, stay away and call it for what it is. If no move on to #3. 3. It's none of my business or anyone else's business, and I will get to know the person based on the merits of who they are. That was easy enough. Ohh, and as far as Christianity is concerned it's my job to show who I am and what I believe through my actions, and if someone sees my light and asks why I am how I am then I will tell them. If they come to God though Jesus and are sincere and true then anything that needs changed will be taken care of by God. That's not my place.

Okay, back on topic now. Good ol' Chuck. Someone needs to tell him to crack the book of John and the Book of Acts. That's a nice starting point there.

07-06-2012, 04:09 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
The thing is I was bullied too, so I know how it was. I also got the physical abuse growing up. That's why I am slow to anger, and why I WILL stop it if I see it.
Well, I think it's just a damn *culture* of abuse out there, really: if it's not one thing, it's another. a huge proportion of that abuse is really sanctified sexual-dominance agression, whoever it's directed at: after all, you're subjected to the abuse and hate and shaming long before you ever actually (or regarless of if you ever actually) *do* any of these 'sins' they say this is all about: and trust me, bashers never even *ask.* (So that, 'Love the 'sinner,' hate the 'sin'' line is irrelevant to anything but trying to claim that Christianity's not actually responsible for its own propaganda and actions throughout history and to this day More than that, it's a sanctified accusation they can use to try and force *anyone* into line, one way or another, even if it's by the 'promise' of having the abusive authority yourself one day.


So that's why it keeps going on, and probably why the homophobes are so irrationally-convinced that this abuse and dehumanization of people is somehow *necessary to preserve their family structures: whether subject to what's directed at LGBT people, --(And yes, many of us really can be spotted out long before we're sexually active or *out,* again their actions betray that their PR is nothing more than trying to justify injustice, ) -- Or not. Most live in fear of being treated like 'the other,' and most of em are programmed to think that the 'authority structure' of their family and religion would fall apart if all people weren't forced to either submit to that or participate in it.

Really, I think part of the problem is that the abusive dynamic is rather in the structure of the religion itself, (Ombipotent but fickle and jealous all-knowing frightening 'father,' submissive, meek, sexuality-less version of the Mother,' suffering son later elevated to the same kind of authority/enabler status, (with some hope of things all working out enough if one sufferss/suppresses/appeases enough, and all this called 'Love.' Pretty typical profile of the abusive family in this society, eh?

It definitely comes out in the politics and the social treatment of others. It's interesting just how precise the parallel is: I'm sure one's actually patterned on the other.

Even if a family isn't really on that pattern, the fact that they're comparing themselves to that dynamic is *palpable.* (I didn't have an abusive father, per se, myself, but you didn't have to go far to see that over and over again.


In a culture like this, it's as well that you chose to go with more of a protector role, ... kind of the option I took, myself, one might get the impression. It's probably part of why the sort of chivalric remembrance of the old heroic virtues is so important to the Western soul, even if it's given second shrift in politics and all.


But I think the real thing society needs to do is just break the cycles. No wonder everyone's going nuts, they're kind of traumatized. Worship control, call others 'enemies,' and obviously freak out that there's never enough control or enemy-izing to actually ever feel alright. Especially when it's bound up in all those instincts about sexual dominance mixed up with ostracizing and in-group-out-group, etc, etc.

(Probably why they've always been in denial of our primate natures: they rely too much on leading people around *by* them, and that's a lot harder to do if people are aware of them. another one of their 'big issues.' )

QuoteQuote:
I'm also a Christian, but one who actually read what Jesus was all about. Seriously, it's not our place to judge, and we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, even if they are Muslim, gay, Mexican, etc., there is NO qualified on that. People who use Christianity as an excuse for hatered are the goats that Jesus will say, "Depart from me because I never knew you" when they tell him, "Didn't we do all these great things in your name?" Yeah, the whole God is a slot machine, and we love our brothers, but only if they look and act like us and fit in as one of the beautiful people. Ohh, I could go on for a while. I even used to preach revivals, but got sick of what I saw.
Yeah, I dunno, those always just seemed like massive raisings of negativity to me. Even flipping channels, (half the basic cable stations seem to be Evangelical broadcasting of various times, it's hard not to get a quick read on the preachers talking there, it's not pretty.) Those screamin' revivals and stuff, eh, I dunno, if they could see it through eyes like mine for five minutes, they might realize a few things, especially how it looks when you're one of the 'designated threats and enemies' everyone's getting stirred up against.


QuoteQuote:
Here's a good filter to look at life. 1. Does it hurt me? If yes, stay away, if no move to #2. 2. Does it hurt anyone else but the person doing it? If yes, stay away and call it for what it is. If no move on to #3. 3. It's none of my business or anyone else's business, and I will get to know the person based on the merits of who they are. That was easy enough. Ohh, and as far as Christianity is concerned it's my job to show who I am and what I believe through my actions, and if someone sees my light and asks why I am how I am then I will tell them. If they come to God though Jesus and are sincere and true then anything that needs changed will be taken care of by God. That's not my place.
Probably not the worst attitude out there. Still kinda condescending, of course.

QuoteQuote:
Okay, back on topic now. Good ol' Chuck. Someone needs to tell him to crack the book of John and the Book of Acts. That's a nice starting point there.
I dunno, when Christians are bigots, they may *quote* that book as an authority, but I've never seen arguing about those scriptures actually change a bigot's mind. (like they really did give any of you guys the authority over others in the first place, really, but they'll just shift the argument even if they have to concede a point, find some other passages they think say what they want, 'authoritatively,' then they'll go right back and make the same claims again somewhere else or some other time. ) But, hey, good luck with that. Better than nothing, I guess.

More of you guys really have to start confronting these jokers, not just trying to cover for it saying, 'Christians really aren't that bad, we don't want this image, but we still want the claims to authority that attract and enable this kind of abusive and oppressive behavior.'

Cause, yeah, a lot of things have been very bad a long time, and some of these bigots are getting their way too much about rolling back progress, and making it worse.

And, frankly, seem pretty desperate to keep perpetuating the cycle on more and more kids, with all the fear, aggression, ignorance, denial, etc. And a lot of the things I don't think most people even *hear* being said in those Fundie churches and political conferences and stuff, not to mention how it makes the media and even state house floors, and all, but it's out there every day. Even opposing the bullying and hate crimes is considered some kind of 'attack on Christianity.'

So, lots for a guy like you to do and all.
07-06-2012, 05:05 PM   #36
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Bullying, hating the "other" it's not just a Christian thing. Personally, I don't think you can be a follower of Jeshua and be a bigot. That just doesn't compute. It's not who he was and even a casual read of the NT and his supposed actual words and deeds shows that. The man sat down with whores, tax collectors, and lots of other people society disdained. He said not to judge. It's his so called apostles who can't seem to remember that and who probably set their own spin on things after he was gone and no position to object.

Personally I can't stand Paul or his making himself into one. Look at what he writes and then back at what Jeshua actually taught and tell me he REALLY met Jeshua on the road. Vision my arse. Sorry, I just don't buy it. Paul is a total misogynist, bigot and just because he accepted Christ it didn't apparently make him angel material. He was probably gay himself. It's pretty clear from what he writes he cannot deal with any woman with half a brain. Read his letters. It's all sit down shut up and let the men talk. That's supposedly the teachings of Christ? HUH? We're talking about the same man who praised two Mary's for wanting to be his pupils, who actually rebuked those who thought it was unseemly for them to be his followers. Martha got an earful when she wanted her sister to work instead of listen. Mary Magdalene was probably the first person he appeared to after his death and resurrection and he sent her to tell the men, to minister unto them. She is the apostle to the apostles and yet they treated her as an uppity woman most likely when their Master did anything but.

I like Gandhi like Christ but I find his followers to be perplexing and often unlikable. But then again I am admittedly an "I don't need a messiah, thanks." type. Nobody gets between me or my maker or makers. Never have, never will. Nothing against Jeshua but I'm a Direct Path to the Divine kind of person and if that's not okay with "God" then, well, I haven't actually been informed that in 40 plus years. We seem to get along just fine....

It's human nature to reject what's different it seems. It's probably got some basis in genetics but I still think it's a lame trait to have. I don't even think those who bully understand why they do it though. I was bullied to death from the moment I entered grade school through high school. I was smart, but I was also smart enough not to show it too much. I wasn't great at contact sports but the bullying started way before I ever had to worry about that. I wasn't gay. I wasn't overweight. I didn't have any visible sign of deformity. I'm not ugly. As a kid I wasn't even all that short. It wasn't till later that 3/4 of the other kids outgrew me so that probably wasn't it.

But from day 1, every single school, before I even hardly opened my mouth to get to know them, even when I was too little to be weird, they clearly hated me. I was the freak. The Carrie White of my schools. I'm not kidding. I couldn't even attend my own prom because I was scared to death that they'd go there. To this day I have absolutely no idea of why either. Later I got flippant. I learned to like myself and to avoid and ignore them. But most of my adolescence I was just haunted by bullies.

The funny thing? Now that I am back in my home town they want to know me. I meet them in a store or at the mall and it's like "Well HI!" as if I was in their cliques and friends and they never tormented me in school for 12 long years. It blows my mind how they have all forgotten the shiz they used to do to me. I can forgive. I have moved on, mostly, but you still can't pay me enough to associate with anyone that pulled all that horrible stuff on me back then. Friends? You've got to be kidding. I'd sooner eat crushed glass, baby. But yeah, I know what it's like to be the OTHER. I've come to embrace that part of me. But it took a long time and it was not an easy road. Anyone who thinks they can make me go back down it again is in for a rude shock that's all I can say because I won't be bullied or severely teased now. Not by anyone, even family. I just don't take that.

I actually go to the local schools to talk about my experiences there. There's a program for kids where adults get to speak to them. I've met teachers that I went to school with. They know who I am and what happened back then. Most of them didn't bully me back then. But I met one who did and he admitted he did in front of about 200 kids to his credit and finally apologized. He and one guy I worked with they are the only ones to ever do that though. Both times it made me cry. That's how bad the memory can still hurt 25 plus years later. You never quite get over being bullied if it's really bad. Putting it behind you, finally finding value in your own worth, that's a life long struggle. I've come a long way on that score but now and again it can all come back and it's like having PTSD from a war or something. You're right back there and it hurts all over again. That's what I try to make the kids understand. That they have to think before they go there. It's not just about that moment in time.

The effects of a little "teasing" it can still impact someone years later. I don't have to wonder why kids who are bullied commit suicide or even retaliate in horrible ways like at Columbine. I know. I was "that" freaky kid. It could have been me. I kept my balance, but it was a bloody miracle I'll tell you that. I could have hurt myself, hurt them. But I didn't, I survived, and that's why I stand in a gym once every few months and tell it like it is. Because too many kids who are bullied just don't. Sorry I know that's quite a rant but those are the facts. That's where I came from and it's a big part of me being the me I am now.

Last edited by magkelly; 07-06-2012 at 05:14 PM.
07-06-2012, 06:59 PM   #37
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If one is truly a Christian, it's really all so simple.

Luke 10: 25-28

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself."
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Many religions/sects/cultures have some variation on this theme. This is all we need to live by.


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07-07-2012, 05:55 AM   #38
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Magkelly. Sometimes , for no reason, some people are just outside the edge of the bowl, no reasons, no sense, we just don't fit in, and others seem to realise it without understanding it, they don't know how to react, so, they go with what puts them "in" with others so they too won't be on the outside.

I myself, have always been on the outside. Always been different, rarely understood.
07-07-2012, 08:35 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Bullying, hating the "other" it's not just a Christian thing. Personally, I don't think you can be a follower of Jeshua and be a bigot. That just doesn't compute.
It's not meant to compute: it's a psychological double-bind: 'We're not doing what we're doing cause we're not that kind of people,' they say, (The 'No True Christian would do this' fallacy,) all the while it goes on in the real world, even *defended* as 'religious freedom' or the 'order of the universe,' or 'human nature.'

They displace certain structures onto some 'sinful human nature' and as a result, never really address the dynamics and cycles right in the hear and now, whatever they think of that Jesus guy or Paul or whoever in that book: the thing about *human nature* that the thought-system and denial and shaming and violence and all that makes this bullying problem so *bad* is actually how *human nature* is itself abused by that authority-system and shaming and fear and all.

It's why fear, denial, displacement, anger, scapegoating, denial, fear, etc, is such a pattern, not only in a 'Christian' society, but especially even elevated to the level of a political religion, if you look around out there.

There's a difference between Christians having *faith* and there being thing thing about a *religion* that stigmatizes difference and commoditizes *blame,* and all.

Even that claim 'It's human nature to stigmatize difference' ...isn't really 'human nature,' ...it's small part that monotheist societies in particular *amplify* to the level of treating difference *as* a threat, rather than a potential asset. Even if the subject isn't actually sex, reproduction, male dominance, etc, these parts of human instinct are tapped *into* as threats to that monolithic 'order,' ...then 'salvation' from it is promised if people obey/participate in that kind of belief/authority structure.

Then the results are displaced onto some notion 'That's not 'real Christianity,' and since being 'not a real Christian' is impossibly-unacceptable, none of this must be happening/it must be some scapegoat's fault.' And around and around it goes.

This is why Christians are so simultaneously repressed about and obsessed with things like sexuality/reproduction/dominance/competition for access to mates.... and react like any member of the social group who isn't playing in just the prescribed ways, (say, by not behaving straight from a young age, or perhaps showing a touch of Aspbergers' or even showing signs of being traumatized by people trying to badger/beat them into line. Hence, most peopleend up in the roles of bullies/enablers/helpless bystanders/victims. )


It's not really about *faith,* it's about the religious structure and dogma: this is part of why a lot of Christians are just walking away from the latter two and retaining some sense of spirituality.

But, too often, are still in the habit of denial and looking for 'sinners' to blame for real systemic problems that need facing and addressing. (Part of this is actually cause of their own thought system of believing the key problem of the Universe *is* about the whole universe being every individual's fault, hence needing something to be individually 'saved' from, and all, which they promise if one participates in said blame-system. )

And the fact is, it's all connected, Mags: if they can sanctify treating people badly over sexuality or gender-conformity, they can apply the same treatment to anybody... They say it when they're tuning you up: 'This isn't me, it's God,' or 'This is just how the world is, this is 'love' etc.

Of course, neither of these things are true, nor do they constitute what faith is, not for anyone. (And sticking more Bible quotes on it doesn't change that, either: that's about the built-in terror of being *wrong* that leads to so much self-righteousness and cruelty. ) Faith just isn't *about* these things. Christians I've worked with that walk the talk don't end up *any more *afraid* of difference (or even there being a prospect of more good Gods (or perceptions of Her/Him in that monistic type sense) ) than anyone else.

(Personally, I know there's good in em, but I'm done making excuses for 'True Christians,' on these matters, myself. I'm not the one who's really in fear of being 'judged' individually by some 'jealous God' for anyone criticizing the group-authority,) ...Frankly, enough harm's been done, over and over, indulging that sort of dodge generation after generation. Life looks to be about to get a fair bit tougher than most are used to: we don't want to be going into that situation with all this hatred, fear, division, and, really, waste of human talent. It's very likely all the money in the world won't buy even the rich out of the results of what they've been trying to make of our society and the world. )
07-07-2012, 09:50 AM   #40
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RML, you seem like a nice & interesting person, but I have to say the hypocrisy evident in your anti-Christian ranting is over the top. You complain about the judgmentalism of "Christians", yet the overwhelming tone of your anti-Christian post is judgmental.

You say to VoiceOfReason: "Probably not the worst attitude out there. Still kinda condescending, of course. ". You know what's condescending? "Personally, I know there's good in em, but I'm done making excuses for 'True Christians..." That is condescending.

Live and let live is the best way to live.
07-07-2012, 11:23 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
RML, you seem like a nice & interesting person, but I have to say the hypocrisy evident in your anti-Christian ranting is over the top. You complain about the judgmentalism of "Christians", yet the overwhelming tone of your anti-Christian post is judgmental.

No, that's how you try to spin it. Anyone who speaks up, from experience, and analysis, is 'ranting' and 'anti-Christian.'

(When in fact, I was saying, y'know, that's not your *faith,* that's a big systemic problem of your *religion.* That displacing blame for won't *solve.* If I didn't think you were *capable* of ever looking at or fixing it, I'd have just washed my hands of it totally and let you implode the faster rather than bother talking to you. Frankly, if it wouldn't probably mean more people getting hurt *again,* I'd even be a little vindictive about it, but you know what? *My* faith doesn't go to that, and certainly not for me. Not if some of those very Old Gods you call 'false and evil' ever taught me a thing about stuff like this: including actual combat. If you want a *rant* I could go into how Christians claim they're *persecuted* if someone says anything but Christ in the holiday season, ...call it 'persecution' to be *disagreed with,* ....and then when you *persecute people,* claim it's both your God's will and 'just disagreeing.' Then you try and project your 'judge-nots' on others when it's the *last* thing you'd think to ever apply yourself. (See, that could be a rant. Also doesn't make it untrue. Fact is, it's *you* guys that *worship* a judge and say that's all there is... and a jealous one at that. That's why it's both all you know and why you're not supposed to admit you judge for yourselves, or even try to do it wisely, if you can claim some unassailable authority instead. )

Then you stick more Bible quotes on to justify not changing your *own* ways, while claiming you're 'the light,' ...and somehow entitled to be sitting in unaccountable judgment over all *others.* (then say it's not you, it's 'God,' but it's still yours to judge what's in other peoples' 'dark hearts' or whatever. Especially if they actually *pay attention enough to understand* the very cycles of abuse that *stymie you even as you try and defend them.)

QuoteQuote:
You say to VoiceOfReason: "Probably not the worst attitude out there. Still kinda condescending, of course. ". You know what's condescending? "Personally, I know there's good in em, but I'm done making excuses for 'True Christians..." That is condescending.

No, that's just speaking as an equal. You may not be used to that. (I'll admit I employed some meta-condescension, there, but again. Am I really wrong?)

Imagine you didn't have all your assumed privilege and claimed-authority:

Then. If I'm just *ranting,* why'd you turn around and do exactly what I was talking about?


[quote Live and let live is the best way to live.[/quote]

Well, it's a decent start. Imagine what we could do if we even like *worked together,* or something?

(Let's not forget this thread is about a Christian guy a lot more famous for kicking people in the head than I ever was, going out of his way to Christianly call gay Boy Scouts some kind of 'evil subhuman threat' by righteous implication. You ain't talking at him. You're going after me for analyzing it from what I seen on the ground all my life.)

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 07-07-2012 at 12:01 PM.
07-07-2012, 11:49 AM   #42
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I'm not spinning anything. I take people one at a time, regardless of religion, spirituality, race, etc.

I'm not claiming any sort of privilege or "claimed-authority" (I think, I'm not precisely sure what that is). You are making assumptions about me that simply aren't true.

Working together is great. You'd probably like me, unless you are strongly Alpha, for some reason that attribute sometimes clashes with my laid-back-ness. Suppose you and I are working together, and you go off on an anti-Christian rant. Then what?

"Then you stick more Bible quotes on to justify not changing your *own* ways, while claiming you're 'the light..." Really? Where did I do that? I claimed I was "the light" I quoted a Biblical passage, and then pointed out much of the rest of the world has a similar belief. I did nothing to push Christianity. Would it have been better in your view if I had expressed the same sentiment, drawing from a secular source?
07-07-2012, 12:08 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I'm not spinning anything. I take people one at a time, regardless of religion, spirituality, race, etc.
We're talking about a *system* here, not you. Your words, here, as part of that. Not you.

QuoteQuote:
I'm not claiming any sort of privilege or "claimed-authority" (I think, I'm not precisely sure what that is).
Well, see what I said about denial? You don't even know what it *is* you're doing, and you're both denying it and claiming it's persecution and 'ranting' to speak about it from another point of view.

QuoteQuote:
You are making assumptions about me that simply aren't true.
About you? Speak any assumptions I made about *you.* Your 'me,' whoever you are.

QuoteQuote:
Working together is great. You'd probably like me, unless you are strongly Alpha, for some reason that attribute sometimes clashes with my laid-back-ness. Suppose you and I are working together, and you go off on an anti-Christian rant. Then what?

Frankly, I'm not an 'alpha.' I'm quite beta, actually. That does, unfortunately involve stepping up when some alpha's got his head up his arse. You're not being 'laid-back,' you're denying and accusing. Pretty hysterically. Actually. Claiming you're going to be 'persecuted' if you're ever questioned. (in fact, can you feel the reactions you've been having to this very conversation? That's part of a *system.* It does express collectively. Or upon your usual scapegoats. Frankly, I think Christians' greatest fear is ever being treated as you sanctify treating others. )

QuoteQuote:
"Then you stick more Bible quotes on to justify not changing your *own* ways, while claiming you're 'the light..." Really? Where did I do that? I claimed I was "the light" I quoted a Biblical passage, and then pointed out much of the rest of the world has a similar belief. I did nothing to push Christianity. Would it have been better in your view if I had expressed the same sentiment, drawing from a secular source?
Can you not detect a collective *you* without assuming it's a personal thing about *you personally?* That was kind of a big part of the analysis you called a 'rant' and 'attack.'

Frankly, is there a secular source for dismissing what *really* happens to people demonized by Christianity, and some notion that it's 'persecution' to point out why and how *I* have probably forgotten more about being beaten *by* Christians (not to mention martial arts) than you'll ever have to unclick a capslock to worry about?


The reason I'm 'not making excuses' for 'good Christians' anymore is, ....Christianity on *several* fronts is trying to flip the narrative to claim *not governmentally *sanctifying* what is done to LGBT people and others in the name of 'Free religious expression' (for conservative Christians only,' ) is somehow 'persecuting the violent bullies and professional haters targeting *kids.* Then the CHristian Right complains about the public school system. It'd be *immodest* to relate my IQ, but it *sure* doesn't help academic performance to have worse PTSD than most combat soldiers. I mean, what Mags said, it's true. People werent' talking like that at the time, but when I briefly had my little home and little life, one of my friends visted, he was like, 'People just don't understand about what we went through, it was like we were in a war or something.' And shortly after, the Republican right *actually declared one.* 'For Family Values,' ...now 'Christian Religious Freedom... To oppress.'

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 07-07-2012 at 12:41 PM.
07-07-2012, 12:40 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
We're talking about a *system* here, not you. Your words, here, as part of that. Not you.

Ok.


Well, see what I said about denial? You don't even know what it *is* you're doing, and you're both denying it and claiming it's persecution and 'ranting' to speak about it from another point of view.

I'm not claiming any sort of persecution. It's a nice, dramatic word, though. I do know what it *is* I'm doing, but I guess my point kinda flew by you.


About you? Speak any assumptions I made about *you.* Your 'me,' whoever you are.

Um, OK?


Frankly, I'm not an 'alpha.' I'm quite beta, actually. That does, unfortunately involve stepping up when some alpha's got his head up his arse. You're not being 'laid-back,' you're denying and accusing. Pretty hysterically. Actually. Claiming you're going to be 'persecuted' if you're ever questioned. (in fact, can you feel the reactions you've been having to this very conversation? That's part of a *system.* It does express collectively.)

If I am, well, then - "pot, meet kettle!" Seriously, this is a bit over the top and actually inaccurate. Seems like you are projecting, and it seems like you love the word "persecute". In the scenario I had described, I wouldn't have felt "persecuted", but I would have wondered what tomorrow would bring.


Can you not detect a collective *you* without assuming it's a personal thing about *you personally?* That was kind of a big part of the analysis you called a 'rant' and 'attack.'
I prefer not speak speak of "you" in a collective sense, especially since I don't consider myself as part of any collective. Also, IMO, that "collective you" mentality is a large contributor to the problems of the world. People who genuinely want the world to be a better place prefer the word "us". And, of course, it's always best to take folks one at a time.

I never used the word "attack". Yet you deliberately attribute the use of the word to me.

Anyhoo, I'm just gonna leave this. I'm sure you'll love getting the last word(s) in!
07-07-2012, 01:26 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I prefer not speak speak of "you" in a collective sense, especially since I don't consider myself as part of any collective. Also, IMO, that "collective you" mentality is a large contributor to the problems of the world. People who genuinely want the world to be a better place prefer the word "us". And, of course, it's always best to take folks one at a time.

I never used the word "attack". Yet you deliberately attribute the use of the word to me.

Anyhoo, I'm just gonna leave this. I'm sure you'll love getting the last word(s) in!
Word in what?

You still haven't caught up with the *last* of what was actually said, so, lol it up, eh? It's not your life subject to it, eh? Just stick a Bible quote on it. Accuse, say 'lol.'

And you blame others for your *image* problem, if you can't even face what's actually done in your actual name to actual other people.

Sad fact is, you probably think you proved something. And all this just keeps going on.

And if you wont' take it from me, here's a Christian minister pointing at the same stuff.:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-emily-c-heath/jesus-the-bullies-on-the-bus...p_ref=religion


Yes, I hear *that,* too. Also the parts of even many of you who *would* try and do better than just don't seem to be able to look at. (Trust me, if you'd lived my life, you might even be able to spot the precise moment of disconnect that way *coming.* ) While you still think it's about *you* winning some 'argument' you have some special claimed right to hold others' lives *hostage* to. Dig?

Do you ever wonder *why* you aren't seen as some 'laid-back-merciful-but-rightful alpha?' It's not that different from any other Christian saying, 'The Bible says By rights I should stone you to death, and put the blame on you for it, so why are you complaining about the corrective rape? Or when that actually happens, with equal brutality if not the rocks? You're persecuting me! So I have the right to claim any opposition to your own legal subhumanity in your own country is 'anti-Christian, cause all this is really 'love,' you just must have something wrong with you if you don't knuckle under to it!'

That's not 'Anti-Christian.' Any more than Christians make that Christianity. And they do. Too much. You accept this and go after *me.* And everyone like me. With the government power of our own country. That's the point.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 07-07-2012 at 05:38 PM.
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