Supreme Court Upholds Obamacare

Mattco26 · 06-28-2012, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by WillH

Interesting! Naive! Interesting non the less!

History will prove my point.

Just as I expected. All you can do is spout hyperbolic statements and republican talking points. Intelligent conversation based on facts and experience isn't your thing.

wildman · 06-28-2012, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by les3547

32 of the 33 developed countries have some type of universal health care

He's right of course. All of these countries are "socialist"

Socialism = anytime a state goes beyond protecting wealth and property.

top-quark · 06-28-2012, 01:42 PM

To the haters: I'm genuinely interested as to quite what your objection is to the principle of universal health care.

I didn't want to enter this debate as a completely ignorant limey, so I read up a bit. Your situation is worse than I thought. You spend more on health care than any other country, both per capita and as a percentage of GDP, yet tens of millions lack adequate provision and your life expectancy is below Cuba. It strikes me that you're getting a shit deal.

Instead of hating Obama for trying to make things better, I'd be trying to identify the individuals responsible so that they could be tarred and feathered. Direct your anger where it belongs.

15% of American GDP; that is seriously big business. All the invective against Obama stinks of vested interest.

WillH · 06-28-2012, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by top-quark

To the haters: I'm genuinely interested as to quite what your objection is to the principle of universal health care.

I didn't want to enter this debate as a completely ignorant limey, so I read up a bit. Your situation is worse than I thought. You spend more on health care than any other country, both per capita and as a percentage of GDP, yet tens of millions lack adequate provision and your life expectancy is below Cuba. It strikes me that you're getting a shit deal.

Instead of hating Obama for trying to make things better, I'd be trying to identify the individuals responsible so that they could be tarred and feathered. Direct your anger where it belongs.

15% of American GDP; that is seriously big business. All the invective against Obama stinks of vested interest.

Whoa! I lived and working in the UK for awhile! Not the best health care on the planet and the cost is horrendous. Course EVERYONE gets the same crappy health care. And the UK economy is worse than the US! Let's see how long France last. How's Ireland doing - not yours I know - but similar in many ways other than religious control. UK leading the world in GNP?

Please.......

So much for the valid history lesson.

VoiceOfReason · 06-28-2012, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by top-quark

To the haters: I'm genuinely interested as to quite what your objection is to the principle of universal health care.

I didn't want to enter this debate as a completely ignorant limey, so I read up a bit. Your situation is worse than I thought. You spend more on health care than any other country, both per capita and as a percentage of GDP, yet tens of millions lack adequate provision and your life expectancy is below Cuba. It strikes me that you're getting a shit deal.

Instead of hating Obama for trying to make things better, I'd be trying to identify the individuals responsible so that they could be tarred and feathered. Direct your anger where it belongs.

15% of American GDP; that is seriously big business. All the invective against Obama stinks of vested interest.

With what the government already spends on healthcare I would be everyone could have basic care already. My problem with it is the individual mandate portion. If you're going to force it make it a single payer or a two tier system rather than force us to buy something from a private company. That is the precident I DO NOT WANT set. The fact that the federal government can tell you you have to buy product x or service y from a PRIVATE company or be fined for not doing so simply because you're a citizen.

mikemike · 06-28-2012, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by VoiceOfReason

With what the government already spends on healthcare I would be everyone could have basic care already.

The US Federal and State Governments spend a similar amount per capita on health care to cover 30% of our population as other nations spend per capita to cover 100% of their population. The government insurance programs here are part of the problem and what they implemented with the ACA/Obamacare isn't going to do much if anything to fix the US healthcare system's problems.

Mattco26 · 06-28-2012, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by WillH

Whoa! I lived and working in the UK for awhile! Not the best health care on the planet and the cost is horrendous. Course EVERYONE gets the same crappy health care. And the UK economy is worse than the US! Let's see how long France last. How's Ireland doing - not yours I know - but similar in many ways other than religious control. UK leading the world in GNP?

Please.......

So much for the valid history lesson.

Again, you are just ignoring the truth. If we went to a single payer system it would have very little in common with the system in the UK. In the US the providers would not be state-owned. Why do you keep ignoring this?

**dadipentak** · 06-28-2012, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by stevewig

Huge win for Obama and the American people - in my opinion'

Mine, too.

top-quark · 06-28-2012, 02:51 PM

@WillH I never said the UK system was perfect. No system is. But it costs a lot less than the American system and there aren't millions of Britons who'd face bankruptcy if they were unlucky enough to get hit by a car. Same applies to France and Ireland. The double injustice of your system is that it's working people who miss out, not the indigent and workshy (the poorest get free health care, right?).

I'm still interested to hear your principled objection. I'm not sure that I buy the freedom argument. Simply by being part of a civil and decent society you're already unfree in all manner of ways. Not to mention being married, a father, a homeowner, employed...

@VoiceOfReason I see where you're coming from. One of the very essences of liberty is choosing how you spend your money, right? So would you prefer something more like the British NHS?

kenafein · 06-28-2012, 03:02 PM

The status quo wasn't working. It's fine to have a difference of opinion, but if a system leaves 30 million people uninsured, and costs more to boot, then it's the wrong system plain and simple. This isn't what I wanted either, I wanted a single payer system, with the option of spending more for premium services, like in Canada.

Parallax · 06-28-2012, 03:06 PM

So why didn't she buy the insurance before she developed the tumors?

dankoBanana · 06-28-2012, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by WillH

Whoa! I lived and working in the UK for awhile! Not the best health care on the planet and the cost is horrendous. Course EVERYONE gets the same crappy health care. And the UK economy is worse than the US! Let's see how long France last. How's Ireland doing - not yours I know - but similar in many ways other than religious control. UK leading the world in GNP?

Please.......

So much for the valid history lesson.

your facts seem to be messed up. The "crappy health care system" you mention, provides better results. The costs are a LOT smaller than of the US. And the economy is on par with the US.

http://www.who.int/countries/en/
UK life expectancy: 82 years for women, and 78 years for men
US life expectancy: 81 years for women, and 76 years for men

UK GDP spent on healtcare: 9.3 %
US GDP spent on healtcare: 16.2 %

UK current unemployment rate: 8.1 %
US current unemployment rate: 8.2 %
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

kenafein · 06-28-2012, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

So why didn't she buy the insurance before she developed the tumors?

Because of other issues with this society. People aren't paid a living wage. Thanks for bringing it up, we should fix that next.

Parallax · 06-28-2012, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by kenafein

Because of other issues with this society. People aren't paid a living wage. Thanks for bringing it up, we should fix that next.

But yet she somehow managed to find the money to buy it after she found out she needed it.

kenafein · 06-28-2012, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

But yet she somehow managed to find the money to buy it after she found out she needed it.

Probably at great personal difficulty, but we don't know the whole story. Have you ever priced individual insurance? She may have had to move into a shared 1 bedroom and eat cat food. Sure, she may have been able to afford it, she may be a dreaded 'leech', I doubt it working for a company that provides no benefits, but with the individual mandate people will have to contribute.

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06-28-2012, 01:01 PM	#31
Mattco26 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 118	Originally posted by WillH Interesting! Naive! Interesting non the less! History will prove my point. Just as I expected. All you can do is spout hyperbolic statements and republican talking points. Intelligent conversation based on facts and experience isn't your thing.

06-28-2012, 01:30 PM	#32
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469	Originally posted by les3547 32 of the 33 developed countries have some type of universal health care He's right of course. All of these countries are "socialist" Socialism = anytime a state goes beyond protecting wealth and property.

06-28-2012, 01:42 PM	#33
top-quark Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Aylesbury, Bucks Photos: Albums Posts: 492	To the haters: I'm genuinely interested as to quite what your objection is to the principle of universal health care. I didn't want to enter this debate as a completely ignorant limey, so I read up a bit. Your situation is worse than I thought. You spend more on health care than any other country, both per capita and as a percentage of GDP, yet tens of millions lack adequate provision and your life expectancy is below Cuba. It strikes me that you're getting a shit deal. Instead of hating Obama for trying to make things better, I'd be trying to identify the individuals responsible so that they could be tarred and feathered. Direct your anger where it belongs. 15% of American GDP; that is seriously big business. All the invective against Obama stinks of vested interest.

06-28-2012, 02:17 PM	#34
WillH Veteran Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,118	Originally posted by top-quark To the haters: I'm genuinely interested as to quite what your objection is to the principle of universal health care. I didn't want to enter this debate as a completely ignorant limey, so I read up a bit. Your situation is worse than I thought. You spend more on health care than any other country, both per capita and as a percentage of GDP, yet tens of millions lack adequate provision and your life expectancy is below Cuba. It strikes me that you're getting a shit deal. Instead of hating Obama for trying to make things better, I'd be trying to identify the individuals responsible so that they could be tarred and feathered. Direct your anger where it belongs. 15% of American GDP; that is seriously big business. All the invective against Obama stinks of vested interest. Whoa! I lived and working in the UK for awhile! Not the best health care on the planet and the cost is horrendous. Course EVERYONE gets the same crappy health care. And the UK economy is worse than the US! Let's see how long France last. How's Ireland doing - not yours I know - but similar in many ways other than religious control. UK leading the world in GNP? Please....... So much for the valid history lesson.

06-28-2012, 02:25 PM	#35
VoiceOfReason Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mishawaka IN area Photos: Albums Posts: 6,124	Originally posted by top-quark To the haters: I'm genuinely interested as to quite what your objection is to the principle of universal health care. I didn't want to enter this debate as a completely ignorant limey, so I read up a bit. Your situation is worse than I thought. You spend more on health care than any other country, both per capita and as a percentage of GDP, yet tens of millions lack adequate provision and your life expectancy is below Cuba. It strikes me that you're getting a shit deal. Instead of hating Obama for trying to make things better, I'd be trying to identify the individuals responsible so that they could be tarred and feathered. Direct your anger where it belongs. 15% of American GDP; that is seriously big business. All the invective against Obama stinks of vested interest. With what the government already spends on healthcare I would be everyone could have basic care already. My problem with it is the individual mandate portion. If you're going to force it make it a single payer or a two tier system rather than force us to buy something from a private company. That is the precident I DO NOT WANT set. The fact that the federal government can tell you you have to buy product x or service y from a PRIVATE company or be fined for not doing so simply because you're a citizen.

06-28-2012, 02:30 PM	#36
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	Originally posted by VoiceOfReason With what the government already spends on healthcare I would be everyone could have basic care already. The US Federal and State Governments spend a similar amount per capita on health care to cover 30% of our population as other nations spend per capita to cover 100% of their population. The government insurance programs here are part of the problem and what they implemented with the ACA/Obamacare isn't going to do much if anything to fix the US healthcare system's problems.

06-28-2012, 02:44 PM	#37
Mattco26 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 118	Originally posted by WillH Whoa! I lived and working in the UK for awhile! Not the best health care on the planet and the cost is horrendous. Course EVERYONE gets the same crappy health care. And the UK economy is worse than the US! Let's see how long France last. How's Ireland doing - not yours I know - but similar in many ways other than religious control. UK leading the world in GNP? Please....... So much for the valid history lesson. Again, you are just ignoring the truth. If we went to a single payer system it would have very little in common with the system in the UK. In the US the providers would not be state-owned. Why do you keep ignoring this?

06-28-2012, 02:47 PM	#38
dadipentak Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,590	Originally posted by stevewig Huge win for Obama and the American people - in my opinion' Mine, too.

06-28-2012, 02:51 PM	#39
top-quark Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Aylesbury, Bucks Photos: Albums Posts: 492	@WillH I never said the UK system was perfect. No system is. But it costs a lot less than the American system and there aren't millions of Britons who'd face bankruptcy if they were unlucky enough to get hit by a car. Same applies to France and Ireland. The double injustice of your system is that it's working people who miss out, not the indigent and workshy (the poorest get free health care, right?). I'm still interested to hear your principled objection. I'm not sure that I buy the freedom argument. Simply by being part of a civil and decent society you're already unfree in all manner of ways. Not to mention being married, a father, a homeowner, employed... @VoiceOfReason I see where you're coming from. One of the very essences of liberty is choosing how you spend your money, right? So would you prefer something more like the British NHS?

06-28-2012, 03:02 PM	#40
kenafein Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Southern California Photos: Albums Posts: 4,082	The status quo wasn't working. It's fine to have a difference of opinion, but if a system leaves 30 million people uninsured, and costs more to boot, then it's the wrong system plain and simple. This isn't what I wanted either, I wanted a single payer system, with the option of spending more for premium services, like in Canada.

06-28-2012, 03:06 PM	#41
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	So why didn't she buy the insurance before she developed the tumors?

06-28-2012, 03:07 PM	#42
dankoBanana Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 533	Originally posted by WillH Whoa! I lived and working in the UK for awhile! Not the best health care on the planet and the cost is horrendous. Course EVERYONE gets the same crappy health care. And the UK economy is worse than the US! Let's see how long France last. How's Ireland doing - not yours I know - but similar in many ways other than religious control. UK leading the world in GNP? Please....... So much for the valid history lesson. your facts seem to be messed up. The "crappy health care system" you mention, provides better results. The costs are a LOT smaller than of the US. And the economy is on par with the US. http://www.who.int/countries/en/ UK life expectancy: 82 years for women, and 78 years for men US life expectancy: 81 years for women, and 76 years for men UK GDP spent on healtcare: 9.3 % US GDP spent on healtcare: 16.2 % UK current unemployment rate: 8.1 % US current unemployment rate: 8.2 % http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

06-28-2012, 03:13 PM	#43
kenafein Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Southern California Photos: Albums Posts: 4,082	Originally posted by Parallax So why didn't she buy the insurance before she developed the tumors? Because of other issues with this society. People aren't paid a living wage. Thanks for bringing it up, we should fix that next.

06-28-2012, 03:15 PM	#44
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Originally posted by kenafein Because of other issues with this society. People aren't paid a living wage. Thanks for bringing it up, we should fix that next. But yet she somehow managed to find the money to buy it after she found out she needed it.

06-28-2012, 03:20 PM	#45
kenafein Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Southern California Photos: Albums Posts: 4,082	Originally posted by Parallax But yet she somehow managed to find the money to buy it after she found out she needed it. Probably at great personal difficulty, but we don't know the whole story. Have you ever priced individual insurance? She may have had to move into a shared 1 bedroom and eat cat food. Sure, she may have been able to afford it, she may be a dreaded 'leech', I doubt it working for a company that provides no benefits, but with the individual mandate people will have to contribute.