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07-12-2012, 07:48 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
FWIW, I truly do believe in Americans in a general way, when I rail against your country, I am railing against the same thing that you do, which is your government and the system that it has set up.
I don't believe that. Statements like "Americans like to kill each other", and "killing each other is their national pastime" (not exact quotes perhaps, but damned close), or .............Americans just plain get a kick out of killing each other, and it doesn't matter if they have guns or sticks, they are going to kill each other because it's what they enjoy doing." and numerous others along those lines; as well as posts in the past saying we deserved what we got on 9/11/01 are not against America, the Government, they are against Americans.
You say you don't hate Americans. I won't call you a liar, but I will state that I don't have even a small spark of belief that it's true.
EDIT: I said I wont call you a liar because I think you actually believe what you say is true, not as a way of calling you one without actually doing so.

This post reflects the sentiment and/or opinion of Parallax and not that of PentaxForums.com, it's staff, or ownership; and quite possibly nobody else at all.


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07-12-2012, 07:56 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I think what really is scary is the culture of defeat. FWIW, I truly do believe in Americans in a general way, when I rail against your country, I am railing against the same thing that you do, which is your government and the system that it has set up. Unfortunately, all I can do is post things to the internet, I'm not in a position to do more. All I can do is come across like an America hater, which I am not.
I really do fear that you are moving towards a society where a few million will live in armed enclaves dotted around the country, with the vast majority living in third world like squalor, and I have a terrible feeling that countries such as mine are going to end up sending aid packages to feed your hungry, in much the same way our countries (and especially your country) has, in the past, sent food aid to the third world.
I truly hope I am wrong, but if your attitude of having been beaten down to the point where there is no fight left in you is pervasive, I don't really see a lot of alternatives.
That is the problem when the government no longer operates within the definitions of the Constitution and is no longer genuinely concerned about the health of the country and the economy. Politicians seem/are way more concerned with nothing more than obtaining enough votes to maintain their office. It's not about the people, the country, or the economy - it's all about "How do I keep my seat?"

This will blow your mind:
The Curley Effect: The Economics of Shaping the Electorate
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/shleifer/files/curley_effect.pdf

Anyone who lives in a country with a system of government that purports to hold free elections, be a democracy, republic, etc should read this. This not only applies to local political policy, but look at how a certain political party has raised taxes, increased regulation, supported increased labor costs through endorsing/promoting/supporting labor unions and increase minimum wage, etc...all of which have driven manufacturing and other businesses (and those jobs, tax revenue, etc) overseas. After having done that, they then demonize those industries/businesses/types of people for leaving. They have lived and prospered by pitting workers/employees against owners/management. I'm not saying that there aren't greedy people that just want to make more money. There are. But there are smart people out there that know they don't have to deal with the compliance, regulations, increased overhead, etc when they can operate elsewhere.

Politics has become about getting votes, not staying out of the way of a healthy economy and providing a strong national defense. The government should do little more than ensure the "soil" is fertile for the economy and that our country is properly defended and our interests are maintained on the global scale (that doesn't mean go fight a bunch of wars, it just means that we should do what's best for the existence of the United States). We should stop getting involved in every conflict around the world where we get sucked into things.

Look at how Israel knowingly attacked a the USS Liberty in 1967 (killing Americans) with the intent of blaming the Egyptians to draw us into war on the side of Israel. It was covered up by our government as an accident.



All of politics has become an us vs them mentality. Every stat published by the government is used a rallying cry for both sides. 80,000 jobs created. Yay! Job creation is a step in the right direction vs way too slow, economy still sucks, etc. Hard to argue with 80,000 jobs created when 85,000 people went on federal disability during the same time period. Political hate/fighting and political dishonesty/in-accountability are two of the biggest factors in why our government is ineffective at accomplishing anything.
07-12-2012, 08:43 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
but look at how a certain political party has raised taxes, increased regulation, supported increased labor costs through endorsing/promoting/supporting labor unions and increase minimum wage, etc...all of which have driven manufacturing and other businesses (and those jobs, tax revenue, etc) overseas. After having done that, they then demonize those industries/businesses/types of people for leaving. They have lived and prospered by pitting workers/employees against owners/management.
That's no way to talk about Ronald Reagan!
07-12-2012, 09:03 AM   #34
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If you use the US highway system, if you use the Internet, if you use a cell phone... basically, you accept and condone the pervasive presence of the gov't in your life.

The Constitution has lost a good deal of relevance, and why not? How could the creators of the US Gov't in any way anticipate our current society?

US politics was born in a cesspool of self-interest and ego. George Washington, for the most part, rose above it, but it's all been downhill since then.

07-12-2012, 09:18 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
If the "99%" "Occupy Movement" worked to influence change in trade policies or lobbied for tariffs on imports to be used to "stimulate" American manufacturing instead of hanging out in parks smokin weed , they might actually accomplish something.
The big problem is, causes become cultures.
07-12-2012, 09:49 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
That's no way to talk about Ronald Reagan!
This is why we'll never get anywhere as a society/country. I seriously doubt ever seeing things improve in my lifetime (I'm not 30 yet) because of attitudes like this all the way from Joe Baggadonuts voter to the President. People simply will not engage in a legitimate discussion, not a debate, a discussion and listen to each other.

I presented ideas, a Harvard study, and my thoughts on the subject and what do I get in return? Sarcasm and a dismissive post.

I'm not mad at you, but this is why I generally like to avoid political discussion with random people I don't know. Some folks will legitimately talk/discuss/listen/challenge my thought process. The internet is full of sarcastic people that claim to care but don't.

Our politicians do the same thing:

QuoteQuote:
One day after a campaigning Obama called on Congress to pass his proposal to extend tax cuts on all but the highest wage earners, Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky offered to allow an immediate vote. "I can't see why Democrats wouldn't want to give him the chance" to sign the bill, he said.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., countered by blocking an immediate vote.
Slap to Obama: GOP House Votes to Kill Health Law - ABC News

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
If you use the US highway system, if you use the Internet, if you use a cell phone... basically, you accept and condone the pervasive presence of the gov't in your life.

The Constitution has lost a good deal of relevance, and why not? How could the creators of the US Gov't in any way anticipate our current society?

US politics was born in a cesspool of self-interest and ego. George Washington, for the most part, rose above it, but it's all been downhill since then.
Which are all used as extortion to strong arm the states into doing what the federal government wants. They heavy hand the states by telling them what to do or they'll withhold federal funding for any project for which the states need money.

With towns/cities filing for bankruptcy protection, the deck is further stacked against the states. States' rights are thing of the past because of the federal government's extortion.

Constitution has lost relevance? Are you serious? I don't know why I waste my time on this crap.
07-12-2012, 10:26 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
This is why we'll never get anywhere as a society/country. I seriously doubt ever seeing things improve in my lifetime (I'm not 30 yet) because of attitudes like this all the way from Joe Baggadonuts voter to the President. People simply will not engage in a legitimate discussion, not a debate, a discussion and listen to each other.

I presented ideas, a Harvard study, and my thoughts on the subject and what do I get in return? Sarcasm and a dismissive post.
The point wasn't sarcastic, I was making the point that your blaming only one party and not the other is not realistic. Both parties do it, all the time. And singling out one party as the root of all evil is simplistic at best.

Also, regarding the article, there's a lot of greek letters and fancy equations, and the argument does seem to have validity in specific cases. However, taxation has not always produced the results cited; you would think that during high marginal tax eras there would have been no innovation or wealth generation in the USA. The truth is quite the opposite.

There are other factors at work with the cities - white flight does not require a manipulative mayor, for example, and improvements in transportation produced the well known process of suburb creation.

07-12-2012, 10:41 AM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
The point wasn't sarcastic, I was making the point that your blaming only one party and not the other is not realistic. Both parties do it, all the time. And singling out one party as the root of all evil is simplistic at best.

Also, regarding the article, there's a lot of greek letters and fancy equations, and the argument does seem to have validity in specific cases. However, taxation has not always produced the results cited; you would think that during high marginal tax eras there would have been no innovation or wealth generation in the USA. The truth is quite the opposite.

There are other factors at work with the cities - white flight does not require a manipulative mayor, for example, and improvements in transportation produced the well known process of suburb creation.
I don't think you read my post where I specifically pointed at faults in both parties. I'm not supportive of either part as neither one of them truly aligns with the Constitution or what's best for this country.

I'm just sick of the hypocrisy and political dishonesty. The fact the government continues to blast oil companies when the government makes more tax revenue from each and every gallon of fuel at the pump than the oil company profits is a farce.

These ads about outsourcing by the Obama campaign when they bring in GE folks to advise them about the American economy and jobs is a joke.

Back to the study...the suburbs and the concept of them, were very established by the 60s and 70s for the Detroit case.

To deny the findings of that article (I skipped the math because, frankly, it's obvious without the proof of the theorum) is just silly. The same concept applies as I stated with the US economy and the policies being passed by the government, primarily Democrats in this case and their support of unions and minimum wage increases, and their effects on jobs moving overseas as a response. When it becomes more costly and diffcult to comply with regulations and taxes (and now with healthcare), why wouldn't a business owner find a new place to operate? The article wasn't partisan and there wasn't a reference at all to the federal government. However, it's fairly obvious that democrats do target focus groups of people and try to make them all happy on hot topic issues to get their votes. See gay rights, gay marriage, immigration and amnesty, anti-religion folks, anti-corporate America folks, anything that involves the race card, etc. The problem the Democratic party is facing is this - they now have so many different special interest groups as their constituents, they used to be able to run the game of getting votes by taking from one group to give to another. Mostly the group they took from was the political supporters of the opposition. It's now to the point where there are too many bleeding hearts that oppose each other, all being sought for their vote. It's generally accepted the black and latino populations don't regularly find each other in high regard and the amnesty vs unemployment issue is a direct conflict. A lot of the jobs immigrants seek out are also low skill/low paying jobs that lower middle class and below African Americans are after. I'm not trying to generalize race, skill levels, or anything like that, just saying the same guys that want warehouse, distribution, construction, factory jobs are going to be competing against "amnestied" folks. With the availability of information and the speed at which it disseminates, Democrats are going to have a hard time making everyone happy to get their votes.

They also predicate their success on keeping these types of voters to support their push for social welfare programs. If the social welfare programs were successful, either those who are grateful would support them, or they'd get smart and realize there are a bunch of people getting a free ride and probably change their tune when it comes to political support. These social welfare programs are designed to keep people down, keep them overcrowded amongst themselves where their idiology is confirmed by others, and keep them on the programs making them loyal to the death to vote against anyone who threatens their programs with reform or revocation. A lot of it boils down to ignorance and keeping them in the dark. I deal with people on Medicaid/Medicare and see the mentality of a lot of these folks from all over the state. It's really sad to see how some of them are completely brainwashed.

There's only so far you can lean on loyalty, patriotism, and love of country. None of those things pay the bills or feed the family. When it comes to business, it is about the money. Businesses, the vast majority anyway, are not operating to hire people, pay taxes, or make a product. The goal is financial gain. If one location becomes less suitable to achieve that end, why stay?

For those of you who are from Pennsylvania, you can see that most places (the vast majority) in the state when you go north and west of Harrisburg are pretty slim when it comes to jobs/growth/economy until you get to Pittsburgh. My family is from the coal regions. I drive through Centralia and places in that area several times a year.

I'm in Lancaster County where it's been non stop growth, almost too fast and more than desirable (farm land disappearing) since I moved here in 1994. There are tech/science jobs here, not just agriculture and tourism. Scranton, Wilkes Barre, Hazelton, Allentown - all fighting to stop losing people, jobs, and anything/everything to keep people there.

Last edited by jtkratzer; 07-12-2012 at 10:53 AM.
07-12-2012, 10:56 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
Minimum wage is an artificial inflation of the price of labor.
And a lack of minimum wage would put us right back to the Victorian era of sweat shops and people working 16 hours a day and still not making enough to pay for even the basic necessities of life. The problem isn't minimum wage, the problem is "shareholder value" which puts the interests of people who have nothing to do with how a company operates in direct conflict with the people who work on the manufacturing/sales floor.
The problem isn't corporate profits, the problem is that corporate profits have taken on all the hallmarks of a scorecard, where the requirement is to drive the numbers ever higher at the expense of everything else.
The problem is people believing that no matter how big a slice of the pie they have, believing that they have to have a bigger slice of it, and it doesn't matter who gets hurt in the process.
America offshored it's manufacturing not because American workers couldn't build good stuff, (General Motors being a notable exception), but because shareholder value forced manufacturers to close American factories and lay off tens of thousands of able bodied men and women in order to pad dividend cheques.
Meanwhile, people who are living off the sweat of others keep pushing for ever more return on their "investment", while the people who actually produce this income get pushed to the sidelines because someone in an undeveloped part of the world is thinking 30 cents an hour making iPhones beats the heck out of slogging around in a shitty rice paddy for a nickel a day, and someone in corporate America is thinking that taking a guy out of the rice fields and putting him into near slave labour assembling circuit boards is doing him a favour, and gee, isn't it a happy coincidence that my shareholder value just increased a thousand fold.
Why is it wrong for the people at the bottom, who actually do the work to expect a fair living wage? Why is it right that the people at the top, who do next to nothing at all think they have a right to all the money?


QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
I don't believe that. Statements like "Americans like to kill each other", and "killing each other is their national pastime" (not exact quotes perhaps, but damned close), or .............Americans just plain get a kick out of killing each other, and it doesn't matter if they have guns or sticks, they are going to kill each other because it's what they enjoy doing." and numerous others along those lines; as well as posts in the past saying we deserved what we got on 9/11/01 are not against America, the Government, they are against Americans.
You say you don't hate Americans. I won't call you a liar, but I will state that I don't have even a small spark of belief that it's true.
I know you keep harping on this, but why does pointing out the obvious automatically mean a dislike? Why do a statement such as "Americans like to kill each other", and "killing each other is their national pastime" mean anything more than the obvious?
Why do you read hate into things like this? My opinion may be factually wrong, and I am willing to accept that, although all evidence points to there being some truth to what you have misquoted (close enough though).
Just because I point out to people that my Belgian Shepherd might be a cat killer doesn't mean I hate either my Belgian Shepherd or cats, it just means that I have made an observation about my dog's behaviour.
I have never said that Americans got what they deserved on 9/11, or if I have, it was a misspeaking on my part. I firmly believe that 9/11 was American foreign policy coming home to roost, but the average American isn't especially responsible for American policy, that is the domain of the American government, which, like most American, apparently, I haven't got a lot of use for.
Why is it that an American can dislike his government and not be accused of hating Americans, but a foreigner who dislikes the American government automatically hates Americans.
I'm not going to call you a lying, detestable bastard who puts words into other people's mouths, but I will state that you seem to read your own meaning into what people say, rather than what they actually mean.
This is called giving people the benefit of the doubt. It is, perhaps, something you need lessons in.
07-12-2012, 10:58 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
When it becomes more costly and diffcult to comply with regulations and taxes (and now with healthcare), why wouldn't a business owner find a new place to operate?
Interestingly, my company has located a lot of jobs in Canada. Due to the healthcare up north, the cost per employee is lower than in the USA, and one of the results is that employees actually get paid better. The cost of healthcare is one of the reasons why American salaries have stagnated.

My daughter attended Susquehanna so I'm familiar with some of the areas you mention. Is there some regulatory / taxation or Curley thing going on in the depressed areas vs Lancaster county?
07-12-2012, 11:01 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
Which are all used as extortion to strong arm the states into doing what the federal government wants. They heavy hand the states by telling them what to do or they'll withhold federal funding for any project for which the states need money.

With towns/cities filing for bankruptcy protection, the deck is further stacked against the states. States' rights are thing of the past because of the federal government's extortion.
Yup, and the Lincoln administration was a large part of that.

QuoteQuote:
Constitution has lost relevance? Are you serious?
Yes. Please note that I did not say all relevance. I said a good deal of relevance. The diminishment of relevance happens to all foundation wood-pulp, because nations outgrow the original vision. Why should the US Constitution be any different? It should be used as a building-block - or perhaps the keystone - to a new National Document. Authored on an iPad, of course.

QuoteQuote:
I don't know why I waste my time on this crap.
I'll quote you:

QuoteQuote:
People simply will not engage in a legitimate discussion, not a debate, a discussion and listen to each other.
07-12-2012, 11:03 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
This is called giving people the benefit of the doubt. It is, perhaps, something you need lessons in.
I stand by my original post:

QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
You say you don't hate Americans. I won't call you a liar, but I will state that I don't have even a small spark of belief that it's true.
07-12-2012, 11:17 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I think what really is scary is the culture of defeat. FWIW, I truly do believe in Americans in a general way, when I rail against your country, I am railing against the same thing that you do, which is your government and the system that it has set up. Unfortunately, all I can do is post things to the internet, I'm not in a position to do more. All I can do is come across like an America hater, which I am not.
I really do fear that you are moving towards a society where a few million will live in armed enclaves dotted around the country, with the vast majority living in third world like squalor, and I have a terrible feeling that countries such as mine are going to end up sending aid packages to feed your hungry, in much the same way our countries (and especially your country) has, in the past, sent food aid to the third world.
I truly hope I am wrong, but if your attitude of having been beaten down to the point where there is no fight left in you is pervasive, I don't really see a lot of alternatives.
Neither do I and that's what scares me. I'm not going to stay I don't think actually. I love America the country, but it's government has me feeling like it's all futile and really wanting to move. I've never had the opportunity to live elsewhere. I would actually like to. I know Americans are spoiled but I'd like to think I have better manners than some. I'd like to see some of the rest of the world and I likely will once the parents are gone. I just wish I had more to offer another country, that they'd want me, but I'm really not someone they'd really love to have emigrate and I'm just not the marrying type. If I can only stay for 3 or 6 months I may just do it, go, but keep on traveling for a while. There are lots of countries in this world I want to see. Who knows maybe I'll fall in love with one of them eventually and find a way to stay but I'll never know unless I go and take a look. Being American it's not just about being born to a place. Or what my government says is American. I carry the real America in my heart and always will no matter what flag I may end up living under.
07-12-2012, 11:30 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
I stand by my original post:
With no evidence to back up your opinion other than what you have projected onto me, I still won't think of you as a lying, detestable bastard who puts words into other people's mouths, though your credibility with me is severely damaged.
Not that this probably matters all that much to you, since I am just one of those dumb foreigners who should just shut up unless spoken to.
Have you ever stopped to wonder why, if i hate you lot so much, I keep coming back to discuss things with you after being banned multiple times and for up to a month at a time? Have you ever stopped to wonder why I expend most of my efforts here on the American centric P7PR forum where I am primarily talking to Americans (who I apparently hate) when I could be talking about photography with Canadians and Europeans on other parts of the forums?
Or do you figure i am an equal opportunity hater, and even though I have never said anything bad about the French (which you have done from time to time), I must hate them even more than Americans?
Give your head a shake Jim, you are wrong on this one, whether your pride will allow you to admit it or not.
07-12-2012, 11:31 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Neither do I and that's what scares me. I'm not going to stay I don't think actually. I love America the country, but it's government has me feeling like it's all futile and really wanting to move. I've never had the opportunity to live elsewhere. I would actually like to. I know Americans are spoiled but I'd like to think I have better manners than some. I'd like to see some of the rest of the world and I likely will once the parents are gone. I just wish I had more to offer another country, that they'd want me, but I'm really not someone they'd really love to have emigrate and I'm just not the marrying type. If I can only stay for 3 or 6 months I may just do it, go, but keep on traveling for a while. There are lots of countries in this world I want to see. Who knows maybe I'll fall in love with one of them eventually and find a way to stay but I'll never know unless I go and take a look. Being American it's not just about being born to a place. Or what my government says is American. I carry the real America in my heart and always will no matter what flag I may end up living under.
According to Jim, you must hate America because you hate your government. That's how it works in his world, so it must be true.
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