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07-18-2012, 05:06 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
According to the reports, he got that one in the butt.
Okay, this is an issue In feel strongly about. The only reason I see for a private citizen to use deadly force is to counter an imminent threat to life or threat of grievous bodily harm. Unless the BG had eaten some serious chilli, shooting someone in the ass could be problematic with regard to that philosophy (and the law).

07-18-2012, 09:19 PM   #17
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Darn shame he didn't have a .45.
07-18-2012, 09:20 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Magkelly

You could make a good cabinet minister in Harper's government. When questioned about the rationale behind building new prisons in Canada when the crime rate has been on decline for over three decades he replied he did not need facts he knew what he knew. Do not want to get into the situation you posted just that you are disputing the actual facts in regards to crime rate, it is on the decline in Canada the US and much of Europe. Juvenile crime, adult crime etc. The only thing that is really getting worse is that violent crime is getting more violent. Those whose job it is to collect the figures do not gain any momentary rewards by coming up with these numbers and in Canada anyway the governments in charge at the times of the stats being collected include NDP, Liberal, Progressive Conservative, Social Credit , the Saskatchewan Party, the Yukon Party, Parti Quebecois and most likely I have missed one or two. The other change has been that prison sentences are getting longer and a larger portion of the population is being imprissioned in some countries but not in other ones with both approaches resulting in near identical results. Studies also show that those who are in the least danger from crime fear it the most and those in the most danger fear it the least.
Not here it's not. I'm sorry but my neighborhood has basically come under siege in the course of a few years. This used to be a sleepy town full of old folks and not much else. Even the bad side of town was the next best thing to Mayberry. I used to live there, btw, grew up right next to what passes for "the ghetto" here. That's a predominantly AA area, and always had a rep, mostly undeserved. My BFF as a kid lived there and we never had any problems. I could be out at 2AM walking around with her and never be bothered. I would not try that now where I used to live exactly. The "ghetto" is now my old neighborhood and it's violent, very violent. I'm talking drive by shootings, drug wars et all, every day almost. When I was a kid there you'd see the occasional 7-11 or liquor store robbery on that side of town, some poor street hooker would unfortunately get raped, or a car would be vandalized, but not much else. Now, the local businesses and normal people are being violently robbed at a rate no one with half a brain can see as normal. That side of town, and this side.

We used to have maybe 5 murders a year, in a bad year. Most of those were drug related. Now there's one or two every WEEK. Same with muggings, robberies, rapes and the like, and they want us to believe the crime rate is going down? A body washed up literally in the backyard of the place where we used to live last week. Not for the first time in the past few years since we lived there. We had a bayou there too. When I came back here in 2000 from NYC I used to sit out at night all the time, watch the wildlife. Almost 3 years I lived there. Never worried about my safety at all. The only thing I saw at night was a dolphin or the odd raccoon, a few mosquitoes on the wall. A body floating up to the seawall? That's not exactly reassuring. I missed that place but I'm real glad my parents moved now. So far no bodies in our bayou here but I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

The terms "car jacking" and "home invasion" they were something you only saw on the national news. It almost never happened here. Now it happens all the time. I'm not in Canada so I can't speak for them, but where I live crime has exploded and the police are denying that with every breath they can muster. The newspaper is far more honest than the local crime stats page. I hear about something locally and 90% of the time it never even makes that page. They barely update it except for the local car thefts. Makes me really wonder where all those crime reports go because they surely are not there on that page for the public to see.

I never felt I needed protection just to go to the local library or to Walmart. Now I don't step out the house unless I am armed and no, it's not just my imagination, sorry. I don't have a gun yet, but I'm thinking about it. My roommate that just moved out took his with him. That it's gone is making me feel a bit too vulnerable. We had a home invasion not 8 blocks from here the other day and I'm just not sure my park's idea of security would actually stop that if it happened here. They have security guards at night, armed ones, and a gate but the wall that separates us from the rest of this crazy town is pretty darned low.

My parents still have one and I do know how to shoot now. My brothers finally taught me. I'm thinking of asking my Dad to get me one. He's offered. I wouldn't go there if I didn't really feel we needed it. I don't like guns except on the target range. I don't hunt at all like my brothers. The only reason I don't have one is because the roommate had one and knew how to use it. We all do but with his around I didn't feel I needed one of my own, particularly since there's a working crossbow and a cheap long bow also in the house, locked up. Those are mine. I used to shoot archery targets for fun before I got into shooting people and things with cameras. I don't even have arrows for the long bow, but I have bolts for the crossbow.

The crossbow that's my weapon of choice actually. I like my stick, my knives, my cross bow and I also have a whip though I haven't quite mastered that. Indiana Jones, I'm not, laugh. Never thought I'd want to ad a gun to that arsenal but I'm thinking I probably will. It's like any weapon though. You hope you'll never have to use it but it's just a tool. I just as easily wound or kill an intruder with my crossbow, but it takes too long to reload compared to a gun. If there is more than one invader I'd be screwed. At least with a gun I'd have several chances to stop someone before they did something to us.

Where I come from it's very much a practical thing.

The news story I saw on this guy didn't report that anyone had actually been wounded. If he did chase them out the door and actually wound them then that's rather bad and I would not totally support that. He had them on the run. That was enough. But those "kids" they are to blame for the whole situation. You walk into someplace with intent to rob, brandish a bat and a gun at people you might just expect to get shot at yourself. I just bet they try to sue him too. What a crazy world we live in these days, sigh...

Last edited by magkelly; 07-18-2012 at 09:29 PM.
07-18-2012, 11:05 PM   #19
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You can find the video right here - Raw Video: Fla. man shoots would-be robbers | Watch the video - Yahoo! News

07-19-2012, 01:49 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
Darn shame he didn't have a .45.
So he could miss with a larger caliber? At the critical juncture from the standpoint of self-defense, he misses. Look at the video and the stills, below. When he shoots the kid waving a gun in his general direction, Williams is aiming for the upper body (as he probably should) at about 5 feet away. He barely touches the kid in the upper right of the photo, resulting in what the authorities call a "superficial arm wound." Now maybe he is a wild west sheriff who is trying to shoot the gun from a bad guy's hand, but I doubt it. Whether he grazes with 90 or 200 grains isn't all that critical.





Williams is darned lucky this was a scared kid rather than a hardened killer who would start pulling the trigger when he spins around with the gun in his hand, instead of running like a deer. He is also lucky he didn't hit someone else in this crowded room. This hero only puts lead into butt when he is shooting these fleeing fools from the back. God only knows what he was aiming at then, either.

This may have come out well, but I have some concerns about how the media is celebrating this kind of action, because there could easily have been dead patrons, including Williams. Articles speculate that he saved lives, but I doubt these kids were going to shoot anyone or he'd be dead. They never fired a shot through the whole thing.

Last edited by GeneV; 07-19-2012 at 02:18 AM.
07-19-2012, 04:50 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
I doubt these kids were going to shoot anyone or he'd be dead. They never fired a shot through the whole thing.
The problem there Gene, is that in a situation like that, waiting to find out may cost you your life. Letting the other guy throw the first punch to make sure you're right might work out okay, letting him fire the first shot is a different story.
I am a little puzzled here by how strongly you are basing your case on what could have happened, or what might have happened. What did happen is that two punks went into an internet cafe to pillage, plunder, and possibly kill; and got their lunch eaten by an old man.
I think the media's celebration of it is wonderful. There's an old adage with regard to this type of incident that says: "Shoot one, teach a hundred." This might make some other punk think twice before going into a public place and shooting it up. Maybe that particular "might, could, potential" needs to be factored in as well. If this does prevent some future incident(s); granted, there is no way of knowing; but if it does then, in the words that the anti gun crowd just loves to use, if it saves just one innocent life, isn't it worth it.?

Last edited by Parallax; 07-19-2012 at 05:16 AM.
07-19-2012, 06:24 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
The problem there Gene, is that in a situation like that, waiting to find out may cost you your life. Letting the other guy throw the first punch to make sure you're right might work out okay, letting him fire the first shot is a different story.
I am a little puzzled here by how strongly you are basing your case on what could have happened, or what might have happened. What did happen is that two punks went into an internet cafe to pillage, plunder, and possibly kill; and got their lunch eaten by an old man. There's an old adage with regard to this type of incident that says: "Shoot one, teach a hundred."
No, I realize I am currently in the minority on this, but I think I am talking about the reality of what was going on in this incident. You had a couple of dumb, scared, kids, one with a baseball bat, and the other with what appeared to be a handgun doing a stupid, reckless thing followed by an elderly customer doing a reckless thing.

Others are praising the second reckless conduct because, by the sheer dumb luck of this person not really being in as much danger as it appeared, something horrible did not happen. This guy shot in a crowded internet cafe and missed at close range. The most likely response from a gunman who really is a killer would be to start killing people. It happens that this gunman was not a killer. The kid wouldn't kill despite having his gun already pointed at someone who just shot at him. This came out well only because they were never in that much danger of losing more than their wallets. This is like praising a guy who drove (badly) 90 miles per hour down a residential street, chasing a robber, because it happened that he didn't kill anyone.

I am concerned that we are teaching a hundred patrons at the early bird special to start firing away when they perceive they will be heroes. Their aim may be no better than his, and their perception of danger may be worse.

Last edited by GeneV; 07-19-2012 at 06:37 AM.
07-19-2012, 06:45 AM   #23
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One more thing. According to the Orlando Sentinel, the kid with the bat admitted to deputies that he was involved in the attempted robbery. He told deputies that two others had approached him and forced him to participate in the robbery of the café where he said he used to work, according to his arrest affidavit. This would sound like an utterly ridiculous excuse, and probably is --- except for how the kids behaved when they encountered resistance.

Also, those later reports indicate that it was the kid with the bat who was grazed and the gunman was the one hit repeatedly in the buttocks. This would indicate that the shot at the kid with the gun was even further off the mark. There is no way that particular shot is aimed below the waist.


Last edited by GeneV; 07-19-2012 at 08:19 AM.
07-19-2012, 06:47 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
in the words that the anti gun crowd just loves to use, if it saves just one innocent life, isn't it worth it.?
And if the guys aim had been off even more and it ended just one innocent life, would it still have been worth it?
This can (and probably will) go both ways. Odds are, we will now start to see more shoot-em-ups as people, remembering this situation, will perhaps become a bit bolder about using their firearms.
From the sounds of it, the old guy was both a bad shot and very lucky to hit his intended target. Anyone close to the guy's intended line of fire might not have been lucky enough to have just been grazed.
How many people have carry permits who are even worse shots than this?
07-19-2012, 08:22 AM   #25
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The "gun" the robbers used was broken and not loaded, at least according to the one holding it. http://www.gainesville.com/article/20120714/ARTICLES/120719763?p=2&tc=pg It had to be either that, or the kids just weren't ready to shoot anyone or both. Otherwise, Williams would be dead. I'm also not the only one to comment on message boards about how bad his shooting was. http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showpost.php?p=5847694&postcount=3


On the other hand, Ocala robbers seem to be scared off lately by any kind of weapon. Ocala robbery thwarted with baseball bat | News - Home

Last edited by GeneV; 07-19-2012 at 09:14 AM.
07-19-2012, 09:41 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
No, I realize I am currently in the minority on this, but I think I am talking about the reality of what was going on in this incident. You had a couple of dumb, scared, kids, one with a baseball bat, and the other with what appeared to be a handgun doing a stupid, reckless thing followed by an elderly customer doing a reckless thing.

Others are praising the second reckless conduct because, by the sheer dumb luck of this person not really being in as much danger as it appeared, something horrible did not happen. This guy shot in a crowded internet cafe and missed at close range. The most likely response from a gunman who really is a killer would be to start killing people. It happens that this gunman was not a killer. The kid wouldn't kill despite having his gun already pointed at someone who just shot at him. This came out well only because they were never in that much danger of losing more than their wallets. This is like praising a guy who drove (badly) 90 miles per hour down a residential street, chasing a robber, because it happened that he didn't kill anyone.

I am concerned that we are teaching a hundred patrons at the early bird special to start firing away when they perceive they will be heroes. Their aim may be no better than his, and their perception of danger may be worse.
Let's talk about those misses. What do you think the statistics are for policemen in similar situations? I wish I could remember the exact figures, but you'll get the idea from this: a failed jewelry store hold up in Detroit resulted in the cops firing HUNDREDS of rounds, and as I remember it, one thief was wounded.

Then on the other hand, you have this guy:
07-19-2012, 10:22 AM   #27
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The old guy would have been charged in Canada, and rightly so. I don't want to get caught in a gun battle between macho *******s in a cafe. A bullet from a trigger-happy jackass defending the cafe's money can kill you just as readily as a robber's.
07-19-2012, 10:34 AM   #28
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You just disproved your point, though.

QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote

Ever seen the statistics on how many rounds fired by police miss their intended target? In 1989, according to the then director of the FBI firearms training unit, the miss rate is about 80%.
All the more reason a 71-year old civilian maybe shouldn't be opening fire in a bank. If one of those rounds had hit a mother holding her baby for example, or hit the baby, the 71 year old 'hero' might have ended up rooming with Zimmerman in the federal pen.

"Hero" by blind luck, perhaps.
07-19-2012, 10:45 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Let's talk about those misses. What do you think the statistics are for policemen in similar situations? I wish I could remember the exact figures, but you'll get the idea from this: a failed jewelry store hold up in Detroit resulted in the cops firing HUNDREDS of rounds, and as I remember it, one thief was wounded.
As I said to Jim, the question I have is whether police would have or should have started a shoot-out in this situation given those odds. The odds in a gunfight are not good, no matter who is shooting.

I agree that there are a lot of problems with police marksmanship. Nevertheless, whoever shoots and misses at that range would be dead if this had been a working gun in the hands of a robber who was ready to use it. Even among police, half the NYPD officers killed were at close range, comparable to the situation here. http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf (That is a fascinating study about how ineffective and dangerous close range gunfights are, even for police)

You can always find examples of where a professional fails or an amateur succeeds on a given day. Some people also win their cases by themselves against lawyers, but the odds are the professional will do better over the long haul. If you are not fairly good at defending yourself, it seems your odds would be even less than the odds for the police. The overall risk of serious injury from an armed robbery seems to be about 7%. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/wuvc01.txt

Last edited by GeneV; 07-19-2012 at 11:04 AM.
07-19-2012, 10:53 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Let's talk about those misses. What do you think the statistics are for policemen in similar situations? I wish I could remember the exact figures, but you'll get the idea from this: a failed jewelry store hold up in Detroit resulted in the cops firing HUNDREDS of rounds, and as I remember it, one thief was wounded.
See my post earlier: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/political-religious-discussion/192948-cla...ml#post2029559

QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Ever seen the statistics on how many rounds fired by police miss their intended target? In 1989, according to the then director of the FBI firearms training unit, the miss rate is about 80%.
QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Often, as was the case here, there is less danger if one does not start a gunfight.
The gunfight started when someone showed up, gun in hand, with ill intent. As I stated earlier, wait and see attitudes in fistfight might work. Not in a gunfight.
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