Clap, Clap, Clap....

GeneV · 07-19-2012, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

The gunfight started when someone showed up, gun in hand, with ill intent. As I stated earlier, wait and see attitudes in fistfight might work. Not in a gunfight.

Then the gunfight started with the shot from Mr. Williams, because it does not appear that the kids had a working gun or the will to use it. Mr. Williams may have justifiably perceived otherwise, but that appears to be the reality.

audiobomber · 07-19-2012, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Then the gunfight started with the shot from Mr. Williams, because it does not appear that the kids had a working gun or the will to use it.

Even if they had had a working gun, just give them the money and let the police handle it. No need for anyone to start shooting.

GeneV · 07-19-2012, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by audiobomber

Even if they had had a working gun, just give them the money and let the police handle it. No need for anyone to start shooting.

That was kind of my thinking, especially if they had a working gun. The overall odds of being seriously injured in a robbery are fairly low, and you may have just raised them for yourself and others by starting the shooting.

magkelly · 07-19-2012, 06:43 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by GeneV

That was kind of my thinking, especially if they had a working gun. The overall odds of being seriously injured in a robbery are fairly low, and you may have just raised them for yourself and others by starting the shooting.

There have been 3 hold ups here very recently where the person walking in the door to do the deed fired upon someone or beat someone who was willing to give up their money. One guy lived. They beat him with a pistol but he survived, but the other two incidents resulted in the deaths of both store owners. All 3 men were unarmed at the time. This is why my local family stores are now using bullet proof glass behind the registers and why the people behind the counter are carrying. Robberies like this are becoming increasingly violent. If they come into where you are brandishing weapons with the ability to exert lethal force that is in my book is a legitimate reason for an armed response. In this case the one guy was carrying and no one knew that the gun wasn't viable. As far as anyone knew they were there, he was waving a pistol around, threatening people, maybe looking ready to kill someone. I think a cop standing there likely would have taken the shot. With the kid with the gun out of the way the guy with the bat would be easily subdued. It makes sense.

GeneV · 07-20-2012, 06:19 AM

Earlier this year, Jacksonville police killed another teenager holding up a store with a fake gun. The place had been staked out, and they could have easily placed an officer inside to do what Mr. Williams did. They met him OUTSIDE the store, as he was fleeing the robbery. 17-year-old holding fake gun during robbery shot dead by Jacksonville police | jacksonville.com They fired about 8 shots, and a number of them hit a surrounding fence. Those might have been patrons if the fight happened inside.

No one seems to recommend getting into a fight with the robbers during the holdup. http://www.portlandonline.com/police/index.cfm?a=31555&c=29869 (among many other sites) If the police do come while the citizen is shooting, then they have to sort out who the bad guy is--which they don't always do well. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/nyregion/piecing-together-events-in-agents...-shooting.html

Northern Florida does seem to have a real problem with robbery by kids, some with non-functioning guns. However, the message these lousy kids may be getting now is to come with a real gun, ready to kill anyone who makes a sudden move.

Wheatfield · 07-20-2012, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by magkelly

With the kid with the gun out of the way the guy with the bat would be easily subdued. It makes sense.

From the numbers that have been batted around here (80% miss rate by police, people only able to "graze" their target from 5 feet, etc), would you really feel safer if someone was shooting back in the store you were in, knowing that at best 1 bullet in 5 was going to come somewhere near the target and 4 out of 5 were more or less just being fired at random?
If your answer is yes, please give a lucid reason as to why.

GeneV · 07-20-2012, 06:52 AM

From the later report, it appears that the kid "grazed" wasn't even the one close to the shooter. This thread has been an eye-opener to me when I read just what the odds are for a trained police officer who shoots.

Blue · 07-20-2012, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Again, I'm glad it worked out in this case.

Try watching the video. He did a very good job on his shooting and moving (accuracy could have been better) which is the way its done in conditions like that. He continued to the door until the threat was eliminated. The idiots told the cops that they didn't expect anyone to be armed.

Holdup at Palms Internet Cafe — Gainesville.com Videos

Blue · 07-20-2012, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

From the later report, it appears that the kid "grazed" wasn't even the one close to the shooter. This thread has been an eye-opener to me when I read just what the odds are for a trained police officer who shoots.

Originally posted by Wheatfield

From the numbers that have been batted around here (80% miss rate by police, people only able to "graze" their target from 5 feet, etc), would you really feel safer if someone was shooting back in the store you were in, knowing that at best 1 bullet in 5 was going to come somewhere near the target and 4 out of 5 were more or less just being fired at random?
If your answer is yes, please give a lucid reason as to why.

A huge majority of police officers do the bare minimum to keep their certification and don't know as much about firearms as you think. The tactical officers and gun enthusiasts officers do. Cops make mistakes as well. The old gentlemen hit the punks 3 out of 5 rounds which is better discipline than I see in most police shootings in Florida. Besides, 911 wouldn't have gotten an officer there until it was over. One perp was already swing the bat destroying property and folks were at risk.

This Jacksonville, FL officer dumped a mag and put 6 rounds in this guy and he wasn't even armed.

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-05-09/story/jacksonville-police-id...killed-officer

Edit: I know several folks that run several training programs in this area.

Here are a couple of beginner and advanced courses.

http://www.groupon.com/deals/shoot-moves?c=all&p=2

I strongly recommend this group as well.

http://www.talontraininggroup.com/Calendar-of-Events/Basic-Handgun-CCW2

I believe training is very important for civilians as well as police. Many citizens have military training and I still recommend this courses. I suspect the 71 year old man had training based on how he moved. He was pretty cool given the circumstances where adrenaline is surging.

magkelly · 07-20-2012, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

From the numbers that have been batted around here (80% miss rate by police, people only able to "graze" their target from 5 feet, etc), would you really feel safer if someone was shooting back in the store you were in, knowing that at best 1 bullet in 5 was going to come somewhere near the target and 4 out of 5 were more or less just being fired at random?
If your answer is yes, please give a lucid reason as to why.

Actually, I'd trust that person probably more than I'd trust the kid, particularly if it was a cop. A kid waving a stolen gun around is dangerous as shiz. Likely if someone behind me is carrying and actually has a gun permit they might actually know how to use their pistol. Can't say that of the freaked out kid holding on me, now can I? I don't want either of them to shoot, of course not, but I'd take the guy behind me over the kid who likely doesn't even know how to use the gun he's stolen any day.

Where I live this is happening all too often. People have died recently in my town because punks like these are robbing them. It happens all the time. They just shoot with no regard for whether the person is giving their money up or not. They don't care if you're being obliging. They come in and beat you or even kill you regardless. The old way of being passive and letting them have whatever they want? It's just not been working. I don't know why they do it. Whether it's the influence of drugs or some kind of gang thing that they have to kill people now to make it into the gang, but what I do know is standing there giving it up didn't save the people who died here from being killed. These people are not just statistics. They're real people and they are arming themselves because they feel they MUST.

These punks they pistol whip people, rape old ladies and little girls, even kill, and I'm supposed to care that they are "just kids" and if they get killed? Sorry, but no, I don't think I can do that. Not anymore. There's a reason I feel the way I do now. I've watched people I know get killed in incidents like this. All my life I was anti-gun except for hunting and even then I didn't want to participate. Not anymore. All this violence? I hit my limit a while back and it totally reversed my opinion on that. Sad, but true. I honestly never thought I'd be a gun owner. But I just might be one day soon. Goodness knows I hope I will never have to go there but I'd definitely rather it was them and not me. Not someone I love.

Parallax · 07-20-2012, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by Blue

perp was already swing the bat destroying property and folks were at risk.

I've said it before; we need stricter bat control laws.

GeneV · 07-20-2012, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by Blue

Try watching the video. He did a very good job on his shooting and moving which is the way its done in conditions like that. He continued to the door until the threat was eliminated. The idiots told the cops that they didn't expect anyone to be armed.

Holdup at Palms Internet Cafe — Gainesville.com Videos

Try being civil, reading prior posts and offering some facts that can be discussed. I not only watched the video multiple times but posted stills and discussed the video in detail. Try posting some support for your conclusions about "how it is done." Find and post some support for getting up out of a chair and shooting in a crowded room as "how it is done."

Blue · 07-20-2012, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Then the gunfight started with the shot from Mr. Williams, because it does not appear that the kids had a working gun or the will to use it. Mr. Williams may have justifiably perceived otherwise, but that appears to be the reality.

Using any gun, fake, unloaded or otherwise in commission of a felony is still a felony and subject to the 10-20-life law in the State of Florida.

Originally posted by GeneV

That was kind of my thinking, especially if they had a working gun. The overall odds of being seriously injured in a robbery are fairly low, and you may have just raised them for yourself and others by starting the shooting.

That isn't really true. There have been several cases where unarmed store clerks were shot or stabbed. The same thing for home break ins. That is just in the Tallahassee area. There are some other cases in other parts of Florida. There are quit a few where folks were successful in protecting themselves.

Edit: This one happened here in the state capital. The guy that killed the clerk had a meeting scheduled today with his probation officer.

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/9381856.html

Another one in nearby Gadsden Co. late last fall:

http://www.wtxl.com/content/localnews/story/Clerk-shot-in-Gadsden-Co-Country...JDx-_Y5Sg.cspx

Wheatfield · 07-20-2012, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by magkelly

Actually, I'd trust that person probably more than I'd trust the kid, particularly if it was a cop.

So you are saying that you would feel safer being a bystander in a store where a shootout was taking place, knowing that 80% of the bullets are going to hit anything other than their target than to be in the same store where a hold up was taking place where the perp may or may, but most likely won't, decide to shoot someone for kicks?
That is an interesting take, I guess.

Blue · 07-20-2012, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Try being civil, reading prior posts and offering some facts that can be discussed. I not only watched the video multiple times but posted stills and discussed the video in detail. Try posting some support for your conclusions about "how it is done." Find and post some support for getting up out of a chair and shooting in a crowded room as "how it is done."

The video shows what happened and if you count the shots, you will see what I posted was supported. What I posted was civil. All I said was "try watching the video." However, I will rephrase it. Please, watch the video and watch how the old gentlemen held his pistol and how he moved to the door and count the number of shots. He stopped pursuing once he was at the door and it closed and he moved to the side of the door for cover once the threat was eliminated. Also, when in a situation, it is a very bad idea to pull a weapon and not use it. He had the opportunity and took it.

Edit: Talon Training here in Tallahassee has some training videos on their site as well. Charlie Strickland is a tactical specialist with the Leon County Sheriff's Office.

Reaction Drill:

http://www.talontraininggroup.com/Video-Training/Reaction-Drill-Win-the-Fight

In there, Charlie states that sometimes doing nothing may be the best option.

07-19-2012, 11:18 AM	#33
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by audiobomber Even if they had had a working gun, just give them the money and let the police handle it. No need for anyone to start shooting. That was kind of my thinking, especially if they had a working gun. The overall odds of being seriously injured in a robbery are fairly low, and you may have just raised them for yourself and others by starting the shooting. Last edited by GeneV; 07-19-2012 at 12:21 PM.

07-20-2012, 06:19 AM	#35
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Earlier this year, Jacksonville police killed another teenager holding up a store with a fake gun. The place had been staked out, and they could have easily placed an officer inside to do what Mr. Williams did. They met him OUTSIDE the store, as he was fleeing the robbery. 17-year-old holding fake gun during robbery shot dead by Jacksonville police \| jacksonville.com They fired about 8 shots, and a number of them hit a surrounding fence. Those might have been patrons if the fight happened inside. No one seems to recommend getting into a fight with the robbers during the holdup. http://www.portlandonline.com/police/index.cfm?a=31555&c=29869 (among many other sites) If the police do come while the citizen is shooting, then they have to sort out who the bad guy is--which they don't always do well. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/nyregion/piecing-together-events-in-agents...-shooting.html Northern Florida does seem to have a real problem with robbery by kids, some with non-functioning guns. However, the message these lousy kids may be getting now is to come with a real gun, ready to kill anyone who makes a sudden move. Last edited by GeneV; 07-20-2012 at 07:04 AM.

07-20-2012, 07:16 AM	#38
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by GeneV Again, I'm glad it worked out in this case. Try watching the video. He did a very good job on his shooting and moving (accuracy could have been better) which is the way its done in conditions like that. He continued to the door until the threat was eliminated. The idiots told the cops that they didn't expect anyone to be armed. Holdup at Palms Internet Cafe — Gainesville.com Videos Last edited by Blue; 07-20-2012 at 10:02 AM.

07-20-2012, 07:19 AM	#39
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by GeneV From the later report, it appears that the kid "grazed" wasn't even the one close to the shooter. This thread has been an eye-opener to me when I read just what the odds are for a trained police officer who shoots. Originally posted by Wheatfield From the numbers that have been batted around here (80% miss rate by police, people only able to "graze" their target from 5 feet, etc), would you really feel safer if someone was shooting back in the store you were in, knowing that at best 1 bullet in 5 was going to come somewhere near the target and 4 out of 5 were more or less just being fired at random? If your answer is yes, please give a lucid reason as to why. A huge majority of police officers do the bare minimum to keep their certification and don't know as much about firearms as you think. The tactical officers and gun enthusiasts officers do. Cops make mistakes as well. The old gentlemen hit the punks 3 out of 5 rounds which is better discipline than I see in most police shootings in Florida. Besides, 911 wouldn't have gotten an officer there until it was over. One perp was already swing the bat destroying property and folks were at risk. This Jacksonville, FL officer dumped a mag and put 6 rounds in this guy and he wasn't even armed. http://m.jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-05-09/story/jacksonville-police-id...killed-officer Edit: I know several folks that run several training programs in this area. Here are a couple of beginner and advanced courses. http://www.groupon.com/deals/shoot-moves?c=all&p=2 I strongly recommend this group as well. http://www.talontraininggroup.com/Calendar-of-Events/Basic-Handgun-CCW2 I believe training is very important for civilians as well as police. Many citizens have military training and I still recommend this courses. I suspect the 71 year old man had training based on how he moved. He was pretty cool given the circumstances where adrenaline is surging. Last edited by Blue; 07-20-2012 at 07:31 AM.

07-20-2012, 07:22 AM	#40
magkelly Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,901 Original Poster	Originally posted by Wheatfield From the numbers that have been batted around here (80% miss rate by police, people only able to "graze" their target from 5 feet, etc), would you really feel safer if someone was shooting back in the store you were in, knowing that at best 1 bullet in 5 was going to come somewhere near the target and 4 out of 5 were more or less just being fired at random? If your answer is yes, please give a lucid reason as to why. Actually, I'd trust that person probably more than I'd trust the kid, particularly if it was a cop. A kid waving a stolen gun around is dangerous as shiz. Likely if someone behind me is carrying and actually has a gun permit they might actually know how to use their pistol. Can't say that of the freaked out kid holding on me, now can I? I don't want either of them to shoot, of course not, but I'd take the guy behind me over the kid who likely doesn't even know how to use the gun he's stolen any day. Where I live this is happening all too often. People have died recently in my town because punks like these are robbing them. It happens all the time. They just shoot with no regard for whether the person is giving their money up or not. They don't care if you're being obliging. They come in and beat you or even kill you regardless. The old way of being passive and letting them have whatever they want? It's just not been working. I don't know why they do it. Whether it's the influence of drugs or some kind of gang thing that they have to kill people now to make it into the gang, but what I do know is standing there giving it up didn't save the people who died here from being killed. These people are not just statistics. They're real people and they are arming themselves because they feel they MUST. These punks they pistol whip people, rape old ladies and little girls, even kill, and I'm supposed to care that they are "just kids" and if they get killed? Sorry, but no, I don't think I can do that. Not anymore. There's a reason I feel the way I do now. I've watched people I know get killed in incidents like this. All my life I was anti-gun except for hunting and even then I didn't want to participate. Not anymore. All this violence? I hit my limit a while back and it totally reversed my opinion on that. Sad, but true. I honestly never thought I'd be a gun owner. But I just might be one day soon. Goodness knows I hope I will never have to go there but I'd definitely rather it was them and not me. Not someone I love. Last edited by magkelly; 07-20-2012 at 07:39 AM.

07-19-2012, 11:08 AM	#31
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Parallax The gunfight started when someone showed up, gun in hand, with ill intent. As I stated earlier, wait and see attitudes in fistfight might work. Not in a gunfight. Then the gunfight started with the shot from Mr. Williams, because it does not appear that the kids had a working gun or the will to use it. Mr. Williams may have justifiably perceived otherwise, but that appears to be the reality.

07-19-2012, 11:13 AM	#32
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	Originally posted by GeneV Then the gunfight started with the shot from Mr. Williams, because it does not appear that the kids had a working gun or the will to use it. Even if they had had a working gun, just give them the money and let the police handle it. No need for anyone to start shooting.

07-19-2012, 06:43 PM - 1 Like	#34
magkelly Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,901 Original Poster	Originally posted by GeneV That was kind of my thinking, especially if they had a working gun. The overall odds of being seriously injured in a robbery are fairly low, and you may have just raised them for yourself and others by starting the shooting. There have been 3 hold ups here very recently where the person walking in the door to do the deed fired upon someone or beat someone who was willing to give up their money. One guy lived. They beat him with a pistol but he survived, but the other two incidents resulted in the deaths of both store owners. All 3 men were unarmed at the time. This is why my local family stores are now using bullet proof glass behind the registers and why the people behind the counter are carrying. Robberies like this are becoming increasingly violent. If they come into where you are brandishing weapons with the ability to exert lethal force that is in my book is a legitimate reason for an armed response. In this case the one guy was carrying and no one knew that the gun wasn't viable. As far as anyone knew they were there, he was waving a pistol around, threatening people, maybe looking ready to kill someone. I think a cop standing there likely would have taken the shot. With the kid with the gun out of the way the guy with the bat would be easily subdued. It makes sense.

07-20-2012, 06:42 AM	#36
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by magkelly With the kid with the gun out of the way the guy with the bat would be easily subdued. It makes sense. From the numbers that have been batted around here (80% miss rate by police, people only able to "graze" their target from 5 feet, etc), would you really feel safer if someone was shooting back in the store you were in, knowing that at best 1 bullet in 5 was going to come somewhere near the target and 4 out of 5 were more or less just being fired at random? If your answer is yes, please give a lucid reason as to why.

07-20-2012, 06:52 AM	#37
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	From the later report, it appears that the kid "grazed" wasn't even the one close to the shooter. This thread has been an eye-opener to me when I read just what the odds are for a trained police officer who shoots.

07-20-2012, 07:22 AM	#41
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by Blue perp was already swing the bat destroying property and folks were at risk. I've said it before; we need stricter bat control laws.

07-20-2012, 07:33 AM	#42
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Blue Try watching the video. He did a very good job on his shooting and moving which is the way its done in conditions like that. He continued to the door until the threat was eliminated. The idiots told the cops that they didn't expect anyone to be armed. Holdup at Palms Internet Cafe — Gainesville.com Videos Try being civil, reading prior posts and offering some facts that can be discussed. I not only watched the video multiple times but posted stills and discussed the video in detail. Try posting some support for your conclusions about "how it is done." Find and post some support for getting up out of a chair and shooting in a crowded room as "how it is done."

07-20-2012, 07:35 AM	#43
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by GeneV Then the gunfight started with the shot from Mr. Williams, because it does not appear that the kids had a working gun or the will to use it. Mr. Williams may have justifiably perceived otherwise, but that appears to be the reality. Using any gun, fake, unloaded or otherwise in commission of a felony is still a felony and subject to the 10-20-life law in the State of Florida. Originally posted by GeneV That was kind of my thinking, especially if they had a working gun. The overall odds of being seriously injured in a robbery are fairly low, and you may have just raised them for yourself and others by starting the shooting. That isn't really true. There have been several cases where unarmed store clerks were shot or stabbed. The same thing for home break ins. That is just in the Tallahassee area. There are some other cases in other parts of Florida. There are quit a few where folks were successful in protecting themselves. Edit: This one happened here in the state capital. The guy that killed the clerk had a meeting scheduled today with his probation officer. http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/9381856.html Another one in nearby Gadsden Co. late last fall: http://www.wtxl.com/content/localnews/story/Clerk-shot-in-Gadsden-Co-Country...JDx-_Y5Sg.cspx Last edited by Blue; 07-20-2012 at 08:04 AM.

07-20-2012, 07:36 AM	#44
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by magkelly Actually, I'd trust that person probably more than I'd trust the kid, particularly if it was a cop. So you are saying that you would feel safer being a bystander in a store where a shootout was taking place, knowing that 80% of the bullets are going to hit anything other than their target than to be in the same store where a hold up was taking place where the perp may or may, but most likely won't, decide to shoot someone for kicks? That is an interesting take, I guess.

07-20-2012, 07:38 AM	#45
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by GeneV Try being civil, reading prior posts and offering some facts that can be discussed. I not only watched the video multiple times but posted stills and discussed the video in detail. Try posting some support for your conclusions about "how it is done." Find and post some support for getting up out of a chair and shooting in a crowded room as "how it is done." The video shows what happened and if you count the shots, you will see what I posted was supported. What I posted was civil. All I said was "try watching the video." However, I will rephrase it. Please, watch the video and watch how the old gentlemen held his pistol and how he moved to the door and count the number of shots. He stopped pursuing once he was at the door and it closed and he moved to the side of the door for cover once the threat was eliminated. Also, when in a situation, it is a very bad idea to pull a weapon and not use it. He had the opportunity and took it. Edit: Talon Training here in Tallahassee has some training videos on their site as well. Charlie Strickland is a tactical specialist with the Leon County Sheriff's Office. Reaction Drill: http://www.talontraininggroup.com/Video-Training/Reaction-Drill-Win-the-Fight In there, Charlie states that sometimes doing nothing may be the best option. Last edited by Blue; 07-20-2012 at 08:15 AM.