[jimH]

Does anyone think that a countries' murder rate might relate somewhat to the societal stress levels? Someone mentioned that Taiwan, the Philippines, and Mexico have non-gun murder rates in excess of our total murder rate. Maybe we are focusing on the wrong component of violence and murders. It may not be the weapon's fault but the stresses in given societies that make the difference. One of the factors that may have driven the Aurora, Colorado shooter's rampage, may have been his inability to reconcile himself to the stresses and pressures of attaining his goals. Consider a PhD candidate who drops out of a highly technical course of study. Why did he do that? He was apparently quite bright and probably could have made a success of it. So why did he snap? Were his personal expectations of himself too high and he finally felt that he couldn't do it? Or was it the fact that even with a Masters degree he couldn't find work and blamed the world for that, who knows. He certainly wanted his name to be known, at least for a little while.

[magkelly]

I think a lot of people are missing one crucial thing here about this guy in Aurora. He did have 3 guns, but he also had chemicals, and other types of explosives, something like a putty. They said he used that and liquid explosives in his house. He did in fact booby trap his whole apartment building so anyone going to investigate him after the fact would get blown up I guess. (I'm really glad he gave up that info to the cops instead of going through with it. He could have killed a lot more people, cops and civilians if he hadn't.) This makes his choice of guns more a matter of expediency when you think about it.

He was clearly educated enough that he could have just as easily mixed something up, some explosive, taken it into the theater and lobbed it into the crowd killing the same amount of people or even more. Instead he only mixed up tear gas it looks like to slow people down while he picked them off with his guns. The guns made it easier, true, but this was a man who knew the chemistry of murder and who clearly could use it at will. Would it really have made one iota of difference if he'd have come in with a whole sack full of caustic bottle bombs instead? Not really.

He's an extremely intelligent, obviously mentally ill man, who was capable of doing maybe far worse than he actually did. This guy? He is the kind of guy who can probably cook up enough chemicals from fertilizer to take out a city block or poison a city's water supply or something like that. That he got distracted by his apparent gun fetish might have actually been a mercy of sorts, because given the level of his intelligence he could have done, far, far worse had he not set his mind on shooting a few people in person.

Guy thinks he's the Joker? Well, in a way I suppose he really is, because he is obviously that crazy and he has that kind of an evil genius mind. I think he was actually potentially capable of creating mayhem and murder on a much more massive scale than he actually did. He settled for a few guns and some tear gas. For killing 30 some people instead of 250. I'm actually rather relieved he did. I really think he could have done far, far worse....

[Pioneer]

People have been killing people for a very long time. Cain and Abel is one of the first stories in the Christian Bible. Guns certainly help a person do that, but there are plenty of other ways to do it as well. Restricting guns is a panacea that may make some people feel better for a little while, but eventually there will be something else that needs restricting...and then something else...and then another thing. This type of thing really has no end because it does not really address the real problem. It is easy to do sure, but it never works. The answer is in convincing people that violence solves nothing. But that means changing the movies we watch. It means changing the types of games we play. Some of the real answers are probably inside of each and every one of us. It could even mean changing some very tightly held religious beliefs. Such as an eye for an eye. But to do that is very, very hard. Maybe even impossible.

It is way easier to suggest banning a few guns. Then we feel like we did something.

[les3547]

Does anyone think that a countries' murder rate might relate somewhat to the societal stress levels? Someone mentioned that Taiwan, the Philippines, and Mexico have non-gun murder rates in excess of our total murder rate. Maybe we are focusing on the wrong component of violence and murders. It may not be the weapon's fault but the stresses in given societies that make the difference.

Well (though my friend Blue seems to have missed it) that was why I posted that information. If it's owning guns that "causes" more murders, then shouldn't Taiwan have a lower murder rate?

In logic there is a fallacy represented by post hoc, questionable cause, confusing cause and effect, etc. which are fallacies of correlation; i.e., where people assume because two factors are present when something happens, one is the cause of the other. As the study I cited shows, no one yet has shown a causative relationship between gun ownership and violence.

It is obvious that guns can help someone do more damage to more people than if there weren't guns, but as Mexico and Taiwan show, it doesn't mean the murder rate will go down. As you suggest, the real issue is why are so many people wanting to kill each other in the US? So when a discussion like this turns into one where the emotionally distraught are looking to blame something, and they choose guns because guns were the murder tool, all that does is distract from the real issue of why people are wanting to do violence.

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Last edited by les3547; 07-21-2012 at 06:08 PM.

[cardinal43]

Nobody ever got murdered until guns were invented.

Really? So, if someone was stabbed to death, then they weren't murdered?

[boriscleto]

Well (though my friend Blue seems to have missed it) that was why I posted that information. If owning guns "cause" more murders, then shouldn't Taiwan have a lower murder rate? .

By that logic Switzerland and Israel should have the highest murder rates in the world.

[debmalya]

Does anyone think that a countries' murder rate might relate somewhat to the societal stress levels? Someone mentioned that Taiwan, the Philippines, and Mexico have non-gun murder rates in excess of our total murder rate. Maybe we are focusing on the wrong component of violence and murders. It may not be the weapon's fault but the stresses in given societies that make the difference. One of the factors that may have driven the Aurora, Colorado shooter's rampage, may have been his inability to reconcile himself to the stresses and pressures of attaining his goals. Consider a PhD candidate who drops out of a highly technical course of study. Why did he do that? He was apparently quite bright and probably could have made a success of it. So why did he snap? Were his personal expectations of himself too high and he finally felt that he couldn't do it? Or was it the fact that even with a Masters degree he couldn't find work and blamed the world for that, who knows. He certainly wanted his name to be known, at least for a little while.

There is merrit in your logic that psychological distress cause people to act violently. But unfortunately not everything is within human control. We can possibly ban tobacco use to prevent cancer, but alas we can not restrict or ban radon gas or cosmic radiation. If we some day figure out a way to do it we will then, but for now why not pluck the low hanging fruit? Just because there may be other contirbuting factors to a complex problem doesn't mean we should not take action on the ones which are within our reach.

[Parallax]

Really? So, if someone was stabbed to death, then they weren't murdered?

Sorry, I didn't think I really needed a sarcasm sign on that one. Apparently I was wrong.
In the future I'll preface posts like that with "Warning! Sarcasm ahead."

[jimH]

There is merrit in your logic that psychological distress cause people to act violently. But unfortunately not everything is within human control. We can possibly ban tobacco use to prevent cancer, but alas we can not restrict or ban radon gas or cosmic radiation. If we some day figure out a way to do it we will then, but for now why not pluck the low hanging fruit? Just because there may be other contirbuting factors to a complex problem doesn't mean we should not take action on the ones which are within our reach.

By plucking the low hanging fruit, we may be plucking the wrong fruit altogether. Making assumptions based on our prejudice is never a good idea. There are good reasons for each side of an argument.

[cardinal43]

Sorry, I didn't think I really needed a sarcasm sign on that one. Apparently I was wrong.
In the future I'll preface posts like that with "Warning! Sarcasm ahead."

I debated whether you were sarcastic or not. I can "generally" tell, but as heated as this "discussion" has become, I wasn't sure. At least I didn't claim BS on your comment.

[Parallax]

Thanks for that, Tom.

[les3547]

By that logic Switzerland and Israel should have the highest murder rates in the world.

Exactly, that's what the earlier post said, that fewer guns does not necessarily result in a lower murder rate, and more guns doesn't necessarily mean a higher murder rate.

[jogiba]

One Democrat brain dead weenie:
GUN SHOOTING at Batman premiere in Denver FOOTAGE - YouTube


So once again, I have to ask............................ What's your point?

BS, most Republicans are fat ass weenies like Dickhead Cheney and think guns make them a badass.

Gun Ownership Higher Among Republicans Than Democrats

[Parallax]

BS, most Republicans are fat ass weenies like Dickhead Cheney and think guns make them a badass.

Gun Ownership Higher Among Republicans Than Democrats

Okay. I finally understand your position. When a Republican kills somebody it's because he's a Republican and loves guns, but when a Democrat commits mass murder, say, in a theater in Colorado, it's because Republicans love guns.
I do have one question though. As you so vehemently hate Republicans, therefore hate roughly half the population of the United States; are you half Canadian?


A man who is willing to see with only one eye or listen with just one ear is worse off than one who blind and deaf.

[jogiba]

Okay. I finally understand your position. When a Republican kills somebody it's because he's a Republican and loves guns, but when a Democrat commits mass murder, say, in a theater in Colorado, it's because Republicans love guns.
I do have one question though. As you so vehemently hate Republicans, therefore hate roughly half the population of the United States; are you half Canadian?


A man who is willing to see with only one eye or listen with just one ear is worse off than one who blind and deaf.

"Joel B. Pollack rushed to report a voter registration card that turned to not belong to the Colorado gunman.
There was a reason why Breitbart News had the exclusive on the breaking scoop that James Holmes, the shooter responsible for the movie theater massacre in Aurora, Colorado, might be a Democrat: he isn't, and they were wrong.
Blogger Joel B. Pollack, writing for the right wing blog network, reported early Friday that he had obtained voter registration records that he believed belonged to Holmes and which placed the 25-year Holmes in the Democratic Party. Five hours later, Pollack updated his story to note that his discovery was incorrect; the 24-year old Holmes in question, he wrote, may not even be registered to vote."

Breitbart Blogger Falsely Accuses Colorado Shooter James Holmes of Being a Democrat - The Hollywood Reporter

Do you get all your news from the right wing aholes ?


So Canadian people hate roughly half the population of the United States ?