[boriscleto]

I notice the shooter abandoned the AR-15 in the theater. That makes all those rounds of ammunition he had useless. If I had to speculate as to why, I would have to say that he found using the AR-15 with a 100 round drum to be unweildy with all that armor he was wearing. Also, what was he going to do after he ran out of ammo? If he had made a getaway and went for a second attack, was he going to spend 1/2 hour or so reloading it? I'm thinking he was just going to use all those illegal explosives in his car.

[altopiet]

Following this thread resulted in me hitting Google a bit, where I got to this rather long piece of information released by the GOA in the USA http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm. It seems well researched and released not long ago (2004). Are they misleading the American public with false claims? Just curious about the strong anti gun feeling from some members...

[Parallax]

Two sick NRA brain dead weenies
redneck gun reviews - YouTube

One Democrat brain dead weenie:

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

So once again, I have to ask............................ What's your point?

[Tom S.]

Let's look at some facts. Semi automatic weapons have been around for well over 100 years. Pistols with the ability to rapidly change magazines have also been around for over 100 years. High capacity pistol magazines have been around for about 90 years. Long barreled weapons with high capacity magazines (as many as 90 rounds) have been around for at least 80 years.

Yet the instances of people going on shooting sprees and killing multiple persons, such as the Colorado tragedy is relatively new, only going back 20 years or less. To place all the blame on firearms, is naive, given they were here long before these events took place. So what has changed to cause seemingly 'normal' people to commit these heinous crimes?

How about Hollywood for starters. As a child of the 50's, I grew up in a era where the bad guy always lost. More often than not, the good guy didn't even kill the bad guy, and in the cases where he did, there were no blood and guts images. Then Hollywood changed. Now days, TV and the movies go out of their way to try and out do each other showing people, both good and bad, getting blown away, in as graphic of scenes as possible. Next we have video games, whose sole premise is to kill as many people as possible in order to win. Both of these have desensitized people to the point where killing means nothing to them. Talk to people in prison who have been there serving life time sentences, and they will tell you they are far more afraid of the people who have been incarcerated in the past twenty years, because they have no qualms about killing for even the simplest reasons. Yet there is almost no outcry about the violence we expose our kids to, and when there is, Hollywood and gamers hide under the 1st amendment. In a perfect storm to this, many parents use TV and video games as babysitters for their children. In fact, stand outside an film R rated for violence, and watch how many kids go in, many accompanied by their parents. It is no wonder we are raising people who commit these atrocious crimes. But is there any outcry to ban or modify Hollywood's products, video games, or irresponsible parents? No. It's much easier to demonize the guns, something the same media who brings violence into your home, loves to do in order to divert attention to the role they themselves play in these tragic events.

As many here have said, guns are inanimate objects. It's the use of those inanimate objects that we are discussing here. Guns themselves don't tell people to go kill people. Hollywood and video games sure do though. People who are familiar with firearms will tell you that aiming and firing under stress is very difficult. In fact, a study of WWII GI's proved that less than 15% of those assigned to the front lines were effective or even fired their weapon. Yet in one school shooting, a kid who had never fired a gun before was able to shoot and kill many of his fellow students with deadly aim. How was that possible? The boy in question had spent hours at a video arcade that, like the trainers our government uses to train pilots, he learned the skills of leading a target and trigger control.

Eliminating firearms to stop a problem that is being caused by other sources is nonsensical, in that it will not stop the violence, only channel it in other directions.

[Parallax]

Just curious about the strong anti gun feeling from some members...

It's classic transference. Blame inanimate objects for the way they're used.
Guns kill people (and turn people into murders, even if they don't want to be)
Glass bottles and aluminum cans make people alcoholics.
Forks make people fat, as does just as the mere existence of McDonald's et al.
Swimming pools drown people.
Well, you get the idea. It's basic extreme left/liberal philosophy that people aren't/can't be/shouldn't be allowed to be responsible for themselves and their actions. There's always something or someone else to blame.
Now, to comply with Federal Equal Time laws, I should point out that the conservatives have their own version/antithesis to the extreme left. It's called the Tea party. It hasn't been around as long as the nanny state extreme left, but it's coming on strong and giving them a real run for their money in the wacko olympics.

[magkelly]

I'm not crazy about machine guns and the like. I think those should be left to people in the military et all, but I can see certain situations where civilians might want them. I tend to think that a regular rifle is enough for hunting most things, and that's all I've ever seen my brothers or my father use, but then I'm not staring down a bear or a cougar either. I probably wouldn't object to much to them being banned simply because they're probably not as easily made as regular guns and that would cut the supply a bit to drug dealers and the like. But I really don't want to see pistols or normal rifles banned along with them. What this sick kid did was awful but it's pretty clear he's mentally ill.

Apparently he never sought treatment for whatever ails him because his record when he went to buy was squeaky clean. No gun dealer could have guessed that he was a nutcase given there was nothing on record to suggest he was. I don't blame them. I blame everyone around him who should have figured out how mental he was and gotten him some help long before something like this happened. His own mother wasn't all that surprised that it was him apparently so it may well be that they tried to get him some help and he refused at some point.

That's sad because it sounds like this was a brilliant kid who went and dropped out because he was having a psychotic episode or he's schizophrenic and paranoid or something and just hasn't been treated for it. It's a shame, a waste of a good mind, and who knows maybe if someone had been able to medicate him this senseless tragedy would not have happened. But don't blame the gun dealers. They can only work with what info they have and if there is nothing on record there is nothing on record. Legally he's as entitled to buy a gun as anyone else unfortunately. But that doesn't mean everyone that buys a gun is mental and you can't just ban guns for all based on cases like this.

There's only so much anyone can do, only so much info available. The people who sell guns have to work with what they have. I think the system for keeping records and that could be a lot better. I think it could be more effective and coordinated so that people can't just buy 4 assault rifles and get away with it, at least not without someone asking a lot of questions. But I want it to be fair. I want people who use weapons responsibly left alone and not penalized for the acts of people like this, and yes, I do wish someone had been there in that theater wiith a pistol who knew how to use one.

He was wearing a vest but still, one good shot to the head could have stopped him right in his tracks and saved a lot of lives. It's a pity that none of the military personnel or the off duty officers that were there were armed. If they had been this situation could have been very different.

[Parallax]

I'm not crazy about machine guns and the like. I think those should be left to people in the military et all,

And they are. Full auto weapons have been highly restricted since 1938, and have been nearly impossible to get a permit for since the 1980s. It can still be done, but it requires thousands of dollars in fees, and a many months long application process. That's all just the Federal process, and it is futile if you live in one of the many states that has outlawed their possession completely.

[les3547]

Les , you've used the term "illegal gun sales" many times in several threads today. What exactly is your definition of this term and how do you think more legislation will prevent it?

See, this is the problem . . . that most people aren't aware of just how rampant illegal gun sales are in the US. I was watching panels on news programs discuss gun laws yesterday in the wake of this latest tragedy, and all of it centered around whether assault-type weapons should be legal. While I wish they weren't (though I am for private ownership of registered guns, strict safety standards, and other reasonable limitations), it was distressing to hear how uninformed the mainstream media really is.

Straw sales, corrupt licensed dealers, and street sales are where most criminals get their guns (that's how Mexico gets plenty of them), and after that blame can be laid on lax state laws that refuse to put any limitations on gun ownership.

How Criminals Get Guns

Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.

Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

While many guns are taken off the street when people are arrested and any firearms in their possession are confiscated, a new study shows how easily arrestees believe they could illegally acquire another firearm. Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun. However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.

ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally. But he says, "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."

[bossa]

Just curious about the strong anti gun feeling from some members...

Are you serious?

[les3547]

It's basic extreme left/liberal philosophy that people aren't/can't be/shouldn't be allowed to be responsible for themselves and their actions. There's always something or someone else to blame.
Now, to comply with Federal Equal Time laws, I should point out that the conservatives have their own version/antithesis to the extreme left. It's called the Tea party. It hasn't been around as long as the nanny state extreme left, but it's coming on strong and giving them a real run for their money in the wacko olympics.

I agree with you about the far left, I hope they are never in power. It might seem a relief after the likes of Cheney and gang, but it would get old fast and the US would be broke trying pay for all the stuff they dream up without a plan to pay for it.

On the other hand, far right wingers are even more dangerous because they actually are quite powerful in the US. People like the Clintons and Obama are IMHO a great balance of pragmatic humanitarianism, or looked at from the other direction, compassionate conservatism.

[bossa]

It's classic transference. Blame inanimate objects for the way they're used.
Guns kill people (and turn people into murders, even if they don't want to be)
Glass bottles and aluminum cans make people alcoholics.
Forks make people fat, as does just as the mere existence of McDonald's et al.
Swimming pools drown people.
Well, you get the idea. It's basic extreme left/liberal philosophy that people aren't/can't be/shouldn't be allowed to be responsible for themselves and their actions. There's always something or someone else to blame.
Now, to comply with Federal Equal Time laws, I should point out that the conservatives have their own version/antithesis to the extreme left. It's called the Tea party. It hasn't been around as long as the nanny state extreme left, but it's coming on strong and giving them a real run for their money in the wacko olympics.

Yes, repeat it often enough and you will believe it; "guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...''

It was never a one way contract though as people and guns do kill people

[Parallax]

On the other hand, far right wingers are even more dangerous

Agreed, to the extent that any extremism is dangerous.

[bossa]

I agree with you about the far left, I hope they are never in power. It might seem a relief after the likes of Cheney and gang, but it would get old fast and the US would be broke trying pay for all the stuff they dream up without a plan to pay for it.

On the other hand, far right wingers are even more dangerous because they actually are quite powerful in the US. People like the Clintons and Obama are IMHO a great balance of pragmatic humanitarianism, or looked at from the other direction, compassionate conservatism.

I can't believe this statement. Your country is broke, printing phoney money (which is then handed to the scum on Wall Street to prop up their lies) that the tax payer is expected to work to pay it off, you are involved in wars that are costing trillions of dollars and you have the nerve to accuse "the far left" (not involved in the current farce/s) as dreaming up crazy stuff that you will have to pay for? The more I read this shit the more hopeless I feel it all is. America is a basket case.

[Parallax]

Yes, repeat it often enough and you will believe it; "guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...guns don't kill people...''

It was never a one way contract though as people and guns do kill people

The highlighted part was my point; but when Joe Nutcase shoots up a theater, or Sammy Streetpunk robs a liquor store and shoots the owner, what's the topic of discussion? Oh those evil guns. It's terrible. Nobody ever got murdered until guns were invented. (Or in the case of the forum here: Oh, those evil Americans and their guns! No one in the world would ever be killed again if the Americans didn't have guns.)
Inanimate objects are neither good nor evil. People are.

[jeffkrol]

funny in a sad ironic way.. read it CAREFULLY..

“It does make me wonder, you know, with all those people in the theater, was there nobody that was carrying? That could have stopped this guy more quickly?” Gohmert said. “I mean, in Tyler, Texas, we had, in my hometown, we had a shooter come in over a domestic matter and just start shooting people, and it was a guy with a concealed carry. He got killed, but his shooting at this guy caused him to run and no doubt saved a lot of lives. He was a real hero.”

Bloomberg calls GOP lawmaker?s remarks on shooting ?nonsensical? - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room