Looks like what trickled down...

les3547 · 08-02-2012, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Nesster

But of course he has the power to fix them; all he has to do is to roll over and join the Republicans.

Unless it was Republican philosophy that caused the mess in first place.

Parallax · 08-02-2012, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by les3547

It's only his "fault" if he has the power to fix them.

He could have closed Guantanamo, and brought every U.S. troop home from the Middle East with a phone call or the stroke of a pen the day he took the oath of office.

GeneV · 08-02-2012, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by les3547

Bush might not be responsible for all our woes, but he has made a major contribution, and his party is even more responsible. Bush started a war based on lies that put 1 trillion dollars on our credit card, and that isn't even including the huge costs of care for returning injured veterans. But it wasn't just Bush, it was/is also a major chunk of Republican philosophy that was allowed to come to fruition in 1999 when Republicans convinced enough Democrats and Clinton to go along with the Financial Services Modernization Act that would do away with restrictions imposed by the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. IOW, while it wasn't Bush alone, the financial collapse that occurred in 2008 was a direct result of right wing beliefs, e.g., heavy-handed domination of other countries and unregulated capitalism + trickle downness, that were tried out and produced the results we are trying to fix today.

The far right is still doing everything in their power to undermine the President and return us to our arrogant, greedy ways, and no President in a single term could both fix the mess and out-maneuver that kind of momentum and power.

This post really hits the point, Les. It is not the person or the party but the policy. It took much longer than even the two terms of Bush-- most of which included complete control of the congress-- to bring about this problem. It is really the result of 30 years of the same philosophy, which was only slightly attenuated during the Clinton DLC years. It is the right that calls President Obama a "Messiah" and then faults him when he does not have superhuman powers which only the Right attributes to him.

IMO, the points are: 1) Whether what President Obama has done has pulled us completely back in less than 4 years or not, his policies did not put us in the condition we found ourselves in 2009, and 2) the only thing being proposed by the Romney camp or his party is a return to pretty much the same things that were in place when we experienced financial ruin.

les3547 · 08-02-2012, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

He could have closed Guantanamo, and brought every U.S. troop home from the Middle East with a phone call or the stroke of a pen the day he took the oath of office.

As for Guantanamo, it's appears it would create more of a problem to close it than leave it for now. Pulling out of Iraq he's done, and Afghanistan is coming soon. Be realistic man, things take time. However, even if he'd done exactly as you say, it wouldn't fix the financial mess everybody is so upset about.

les3547 · 08-02-2012, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

It is really the result of 30 years of the same philosophy . . . .

My first impulse is to figure out what someone's philosophy is because it not only reveals the basis of their actions, but also their assumptions about reality. When the moderate right and left cooperate, it turns into a pretty good philosophy where each person must stand on his own two feet, and we build a society that supports its citizens toward getting on their feet . . . individuation and unity.

Far right philosophy is only about individual advancement, it sees the unifying aspect as an enemy instead of a complimentary opposite (and in this respect the far left is no better). I worry about our country right now. I can't tell if the far right is about to destroy itself through its extremes, or if it is about to destroy the US.

Parallax · 08-02-2012, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by les3547

Be realistic man, things take time.

I realize that. My response was to illustrate that eh dose indeed have the power.

Originally posted by les3547

However, even if he'd done exactly as you say, it wouldn't fix the financial mess everybody is so upset about.

Interesting. When the talk is about the crappy economy the most often (perhaps rightfully so) blamed contributor is the cost of the war/invasion/occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Nesster · 08-02-2012, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

Interesting. When the talk is about the crappy economy the most often (perhaps rightfully so) blamed contributor is the cost of the war/invasion/occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

That depends... it was the credit boom, which substituted for sustainable growth in the consumer pool & companies that sell to them. The credit boom encouraged tax subsidized over-leverage, at the individual scale and at the largest corporate scale. It made Romney millions.

Where the wars come in: the added deficit spend limits what the government can do about the recession, and has routed available funds away from what benefits the average consumer.

Also, if you think about it, what do you say about a multi billion dollar effort to make things, send them overseas, and then break those things? How much of the material we sent out will come back in good condition? Apple makes 100,000,000 iPads, sells them, and breaks 500,000 of these. The owners of the broken ones simply consider it normal and plonk down new dollars to buy a new one.

les3547 · 08-02-2012, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

When the talk is about the crappy economy the most often (perhaps rightfully so) blamed contributor is the cost of the war/invasion/occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't think it is blamed more than the mortgage/Wall Street mess. In any case, much of the money was spent before Obama came along, and even an immediate withdrawal would have cost many billions more. I think Obama has done a great job as a manager given the circumstances; communicating what he's up to needs improvement.

GeneV · 08-02-2012, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

I realize that. My response was to illustrate that eh dose indeed have the power.
Interesting. When the talk is about the crappy economy the most often (perhaps rightfully so) blamed contributor is the cost of the war/invasion/occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I think that subject also comes up when opponents of stimulus or other measures to jump start the economy talk about exploding deficits. Obama's deficits are on the books. The previous administration's war expenses were not. As noted before, it is not that easy to stop a war on a dime. I wish it were.

Ratmagiclady · 08-03-2012, 11:17 AM

Isn't it funny that these are the exact same people spending billions to claim 'Keeping poor people insecure will make them enterpreneurs! We need more oligopoly and keeping the prices up on housing and access to the market at all!'

08-02-2012, 09:27 AM	#63
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by les3547 Bush might not be responsible for all our woes, but he has made a major contribution, and his party is even more responsible. Bush started a war based on lies that put 1 trillion dollars on our credit card, and that isn't even including the huge costs of care for returning injured veterans. But it wasn't just Bush, it was/is also a major chunk of Republican philosophy that was allowed to come to fruition in 1999 when Republicans convinced enough Democrats and Clinton to go along with the Financial Services Modernization Act that would do away with restrictions imposed by the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. IOW, while it wasn't Bush alone, the financial collapse that occurred in 2008 was a direct result of right wing beliefs, e.g., heavy-handed domination of other countries and unregulated capitalism + trickle downness, that were tried out and produced the results we are trying to fix today. The far right is still doing everything in their power to undermine the President and return us to our arrogant, greedy ways, and no President in a single term could both fix the mess and out-maneuver that kind of momentum and power. This post really hits the point, Les. It is not the person or the party but the policy. It took much longer than even the two terms of Bush-- most of which included complete control of the congress-- to bring about this problem. It is really the result of 30 years of the same philosophy, which was only slightly attenuated during the Clinton DLC years. It is the right that calls President Obama a "Messiah" and then faults him when he does not have superhuman powers which only the Right attributes to him. IMO, the points are: 1) Whether what President Obama has done has pulled us completely back in less than 4 years or not, his policies did not put us in the condition we found ourselves in 2009, and 2) the only thing being proposed by the Romney camp or his party is a return to pretty much the same things that were in place when we experienced financial ruin. Last edited by GeneV; 08-02-2012 at 09:49 AM.

08-02-2012, 11:02 AM	#68
les3547 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sebastopol, California Photos: Albums Posts: 2,020	Originally posted by Parallax When the talk is about the crappy economy the most often (perhaps rightfully so) blamed contributor is the cost of the war/invasion/occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think it is blamed more than the mortgage/Wall Street mess. In any case, much of the money was spent before Obama came along, and even an immediate withdrawal would have cost many billions more. I think Obama has done a great job as a manager given the circumstances; communicating what he's up to needs improvement. Last edited by les3547; 08-03-2012 at 01:04 PM.

08-02-2012, 08:44 AM	#61
les3547 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sebastopol, California Photos: Albums Posts: 2,020	Originally posted by Nesster But of course he has the power to fix them; all he has to do is to roll over and join the Republicans. Unless it was Republican philosophy that caused the mess in first place.

08-02-2012, 09:01 AM	#62
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by les3547 It's only his "fault" if he has the power to fix them. He could have closed Guantanamo, and brought every U.S. troop home from the Middle East with a phone call or the stroke of a pen the day he took the oath of office.

08-02-2012, 09:30 AM	#64
les3547 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sebastopol, California Photos: Albums Posts: 2,020	Originally posted by Parallax He could have closed Guantanamo, and brought every U.S. troop home from the Middle East with a phone call or the stroke of a pen the day he took the oath of office. As for Guantanamo, it's appears it would create more of a problem to close it than leave it for now. Pulling out of Iraq he's done, and Afghanistan is coming soon. Be realistic man, things take time. However, even if he'd done exactly as you say, it wouldn't fix the financial mess everybody is so upset about.

08-02-2012, 10:18 AM	#65
les3547 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sebastopol, California Photos: Albums Posts: 2,020	Originally posted by GeneV It is really the result of 30 years of the same philosophy . . . . My first impulse is to figure out what someone's philosophy is because it not only reveals the basis of their actions, but also their assumptions about reality. When the moderate right and left cooperate, it turns into a pretty good philosophy where each person must stand on his own two feet, and we build a society that supports its citizens toward getting on their feet . . . individuation and unity. Far right philosophy is only about individual advancement, it sees the unifying aspect as an enemy instead of a complimentary opposite (and in this respect the far left is no better). I worry about our country right now. I can't tell if the far right is about to destroy itself through its extremes, or if it is about to destroy the US.

08-02-2012, 10:23 AM	#66
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by les3547 Be realistic man, things take time. I realize that. My response was to illustrate that eh dose indeed have the power. Originally posted by les3547 However, even if he'd done exactly as you say, it wouldn't fix the financial mess everybody is so upset about. Interesting. When the talk is about the crappy economy the most often (perhaps rightfully so) blamed contributor is the cost of the war/invasion/occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

08-02-2012, 10:32 AM	#67
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072 Original Poster	Originally posted by Parallax Interesting. When the talk is about the crappy economy the most often (perhaps rightfully so) blamed contributor is the cost of the war/invasion/occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. That depends... it was the credit boom, which substituted for sustainable growth in the consumer pool & companies that sell to them. The credit boom encouraged tax subsidized over-leverage, at the individual scale and at the largest corporate scale. It made Romney millions. Where the wars come in: the added deficit spend limits what the government can do about the recession, and has routed available funds away from what benefits the average consumer. Also, if you think about it, what do you say about a multi billion dollar effort to make things, send them overseas, and then break those things? How much of the material we sent out will come back in good condition? Apple makes 100,000,000 iPads, sells them, and breaks 500,000 of these. The owners of the broken ones simply consider it normal and plonk down new dollars to buy a new one.

08-02-2012, 11:15 AM	#69
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Parallax I realize that. My response was to illustrate that eh dose indeed have the power. Interesting. When the talk is about the crappy economy the most often (perhaps rightfully so) blamed contributor is the cost of the war/invasion/occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. I think that subject also comes up when opponents of stimulus or other measures to jump start the economy talk about exploding deficits. Obama's deficits are on the books. The previous administration's war expenses were not. As noted before, it is not that easy to stop a war on a dime. I wish it were.

08-03-2012, 11:17 AM	#70
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Isn't it funny that these are the exact same people spending billions to claim 'Keeping poor people insecure will make them enterpreneurs! We need more oligopoly and keeping the prices up on housing and access to the market at all!'