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08-01-2012, 10:16 AM   #31
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Agnosticism is the only intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge. All else is one form of religion or another.

08-01-2012, 10:24 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by JHD Quote
The atheist is neither inspired nor empowered.
Actually, they are empowered. See below.

QuoteOriginally posted by JHD Quote
Agnosticism is the only intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge. All else is one form of religion or another.
You're right, it is an intellectual doctrine, but I think atheism is as well, and that is what empowers atheists; the belief that they are intellectually superior to those who believe in a deity. That's what makes them think it's okay to do things like tell a child that a believer wouldn't help them if they needed help. Only an atheist would.
08-01-2012, 10:29 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by JHD Quote
Agnosticism is the only intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge. All else is one form of religion or another.
Actually, most Atheists are also agnostic. I am an agnostic Atheist. They are not exclusive terms. One has to do with belief and one, with knowledge. There are also agnostic theists. I for one don't believe in any gods, but I do not know that some don't exist. I do think the evidence is stacked against any of the major theologies that exist today.


http://whenitstrikesme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Agnostic+v+Gnostic+v+Atheist+v+Theist.png

Last edited by kenafein; 08-01-2012 at 10:35 AM.
08-01-2012, 10:40 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by JHD Quote
the atheist is neither inspired nor empowered.
Being inspired and empowered does not require a belief in god of any type. being inspired and empowered by religion may - though i would argue that many people are neither inspired nor empowered by their religion
Art inspires me but it is not a religion for example (it is of course one of many things that may inspire name at points)
If anything the lack of a belief in god has empowered me to make my own choices and develop my own beliefs,
this is just my experience though as i cannot speak for all atheists since we all have our own ways beliefs and inspirations that guide us, and just as with people who believe in god many atheists are neither inspired nor empowered

08-01-2012, 10:44 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
though i would argue that many people are neither inspired nor empowered by their religion
I completely agree with that. In fact, I'm an example of it's veracity.
08-01-2012, 11:24 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
I completely agree with that. In fact, I'm an example of it's veracity.
in which case maybe it's time to explore alternates

of course then you may end where i did and still lack inspiration
08-01-2012, 11:26 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
9snip)]
hey it forms a cross................. Need any more proof???? LOL

08-01-2012, 12:01 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
I'm afraid that only a child's parents are allowed to force their beliefs on them, regardless of what they are. That's the way things are and will always be.

I think you were wrong in your roof tale, because religious believers would not behave in such a way. Having said that, the correct response by the parent would have been to explain, as best they can, why they disagree with what you told the child. Admonishing you for exposing the child to an alternative (and in my view, correct) point of view achieves nothing. Does she think that her child will never be exposed to alternative viewpoints? Unfortunately, children are very open to ideas and will usually believe unquestioningly what their parents tell them. This is why the teaching of religion to children is an abuse, whoever does it. Many people know, consciously or otherwise, that the best way to pull their child into their religion is to impose it when they are vulnerable, because that is what was done to them. It's akin to the common statement that the bullied becomes the bully. In an ideal world, children would live in a religion-free bubble until they are old enough to make up their own minds and live with their choices.

When I have children I will raise them as atheists and will object to any attempt by others to impose religion on them, however, I will encourage free-thinking. What's the difference you may ask? I have the benefit of being able to justify my reasoning, and that all the evidence is on my side.
So one of the difficult things about raising children as an atheist is that they ask all kinds of questions which they aren't necessarily prepared to understand the answer it requires you to respond in a different way that is accessible to them, often in a way that is an impartial answer which they will then persistently pursue you to expand upon. Rather than the problem of dealing with someone who stubbornly refuses to listen to reason the exact opposite problem of someone whose extremely curious yet ill-suited to grasp complicated issues. While religious people have churches, children's picture books, Sunday schools, maddrasas, parochial schools, priests, traditions, and jesus camps to help them explain their belief system in an organized and accessible way that they have spent millenniums developing you or I find ourselves out there with no support or training whatsoever trying to explain the world. When put on the spot you sometimes will end up with a slightly inappropriate story that might not show tolerance towards explaining the difference between atheists and theists even if it is valid. I would defend the validity of it because if you look at phrases like "god will provide," "god will make a way," or whatever else the faithful wrap themselves in to accept their passiveness or when you consider the behavior of the Catholic church through periods like the holocaust. Just about every religion I can think of has a pretty controversial aspects whether it is crusades/jihads, caste systems, support of slavery, or being on the wrong side of many moral issues which are pretty clear cut these days. How do you explain those politely to a 5 year old other than trying to make up a hypothetical situation or story that is less serious?

QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
Never yet met an atheist that did not cite dinosaur bones or evolution as proof the Bible is wrong.
I am not really interested in debating the factual merits of the book that was written by someone writing down the campfire stories of ancient shepherds versus the body of scientific knowledge developed which refutes many of the details of those stories. If you choose to believe it word for word, I will just respectfully disagree with it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
There have been scientific studies that refute that.
I was careful to say that it doesn't do much rather than saying it does nothing. I know that prayer has been shown to help people with illness in a similar way as having a positive outlook helps them or that the placebo affect is real. Praying for someone to feel better, probably not as much (although I have never seen any studies one way or the other). If anyone is interested in doing a study about that, I would also like to see them include a control group of people who don't get "prayed for" by their loved ones but receive a pleasant call or visit which reminds them that someone else is thinking about them and loving them without any religious aspect (which is what I do for friends and family if they are ill).
08-01-2012, 12:02 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
So 0.007 people were able to explain it to you? Genesis also says that the stars are embedded in a firmament and that the moon is a light source. And the two accounts are in disagreement on what happened on each of the 'days'. The Bible promotes a healthy skepticism. I don't have any issue with you being a Christian, but I don't call it something that it's not, or attribute things falsely to it. I appreciate that you take into account the evidence that we've found, as a species, and incorporate it into your belief instead of outright rejecting it.
too bad you take the bible too literally in your arguments... btw...
depending on how you view spacetime and gravity... there is reason to believe space is more than a simple vacuum.. and like it or not, it may be a source of reflected light, but in the earth's night sky it is still the brightest source of light... a real stretch on your part to argue.

I don't argue with the facts nor the evidence.. .just the conclusions that some people jump to. whether they be scientists or theologians.
08-01-2012, 12:12 PM   #40
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When dealing with other people's children I make a real point of not discussing my own rather more simplistic beliefs in terms of all that unless I have permission from the parents first. At some point in a child's life they will be exposed to all sorts of things and ideas. They will chose for themselves what they believe. They may choose to believe as their parents do or they may choose another path entirely but it is not my place to educate other people's children on that score unless they would like me to. That's not a discussion I feel is appropriate unless the parents approve of me being honest and talking about it. I have done so with permission. But I would never go there sans it. My standard reply to a question like that would have been for the kid to go ask Mommy or Daddy first if they're allowed to ask me that question. If they got permission then yes, I'd answer it, and honestly, but not before. At least not until they're much older than that. At that stage in their lives it's still for the parents to determine what their child is exposed to. Or not. It's no different than the parents deciding what the child will read or watch on TV. Later when the child is older, that's the time for frank discussion of beliefs or lack thereof but that young I think you should ask before just going there. Talking about religion can be a little like talking about sex. There's a time and place for that but it's really the parent's job to decide when and how much at what time.
08-01-2012, 12:21 PM   #41
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OP is funny. LOL

I can only imagine the horror/trouble his mom will have to do all those explanations... LOL
08-01-2012, 12:37 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
as been shown to help people with illness in a similar way as having a positive outlook helps them or that the placebo affect is real. Praying for someone to feel better, probably not as much (although I have never seen any studies one way or the other). If anyone is interested in doing a study about that, I would also like to see them include a control group of people who don't get "prayed for" by their loved ones but receive a pleasant call or visit which reminds them that someone else is thinking about them and loving them without any religious aspect
One study published within the last few years did in fact include group that didn't know they were being prayed for and a control group that wasn't prayed for. There was slightly better results for the group that was prayed for.
Science aside, I'm still curious as to what makes you think it's okay for an adult to tell someone else's child that people who believe in God would let her fall off of a roof than try and save her.
08-01-2012, 01:34 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
too bad you take the bible too literally in your arguments... btw...
depending on how you view spacetime and gravity... there is reason to believe space is more than a simple vacuum.. and like it or not, it may be a source of reflected light, but in the earth's night sky it is still the brightest source of light... a real stretch on your part to argue.

I don't argue with the facts nor the evidence.. .just the conclusions that some people jump to. whether they be scientists or theologians.
Not at all. I said it promotes a healthy skepticism. I know that interpretations range from the literal to figurative. I've always been impressed with Apologetics. The mental gymnastics involved in justifying the Bible, in a modern context, are staggering; but it's just vague enough to elude total dismissal, unlike a literal interpretation.
08-01-2012, 02:11 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
OP is funny. LOL

I can only imagine the horror/trouble his mom will have to do all those explanations... LOL
"Don't talk to Ashholes" ? maybe? lol!
08-01-2012, 02:15 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
Atheism is a religion..

It requires blind faith in an as yet unproven theory on the origins of everything... when confronted with facts or evidence or testimony from witnesses, that do not fit the theory, the atheist waves his magic wand and utters the unprovable, undeniable magic words "It happens over billions of years" which nobody can prove or disprove, yet the atheist does not hold up his own beliefs to the same standards that he'd expect from other religions.. ie "Show me God" because to hold the atheists theory up to the same standards of scientific proof..direct observation, one would need a time machine to travel back billions of years and conduct actual studies...

even if God did send proof... non believers would still ignore the proof and nail the messenger to a cross... lol!

here's where you can send your money.btw...( theres other s internationally as well). Supporting Civil Rights for Atheists and the Separation of Church and State | American Atheists
What nonsense Don. You do not need to have blind faith in anything as an atheist, we can embrace uncertainty pretty well. I'm 99% sure there isn't a God, which is good enough for me; if I'm wrong, I can still see no special reason why that God would be YAHWEH. Given the number of world religions, why would I think that (apart from cultural bias). Science and dinosaur bones don't come into it.

I thank ELOHIM that I wasn't born in America. I would despise the vilification that atheists seem to receive from the knuckle dragging church goers. I don't have a problem with people of faith, up to the point where they tell me I cannot discuss my own beliefs or lack of, or try to marginalise me for it.

Last edited by ihasa; 08-01-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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