Do slave descendants make better athletes?

wwwmorrell · 08-13-2012, 03:48 AM

All athletes, where ever their place in the evolution of man excel in many different sports & endeavors than some of their counterparts.

Just the different way nature designed some of us I guess.

Blue · 08-13-2012, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by ihasa

I'm sick of hearing white people trying to make an equivalence between 'white slavery' and the transatlantic slave trade, which stands alone as the most atrocious thing man has ever done to his fellow man in recorded history.

Slavery was around a long time before that.

It was around during all the ancient civilizations. As far as the trans-Atlantic slave trade goes, the shipping companies got the slaves from other Africans. Slavery is a very bad thing. However, it wasn't just peculiar to the trans-Atlantic. Furthermore, not all black Americans are descendants of slaves. Quite a few of my friends and colleagues are African immigrants.

**boriscleto** · 08-13-2012, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by Blue

Furthermore, not all black Americans are descendants of slaves. Quite a few of my friends and colleagues are African immigrants.

The BBC wasn't really talking about American athletes anyway. They were talking about the slave descended athletes from places like Jamaica, Bermuda, Trinidad etc.

I think the question is 'Why are sprinters descended from West African slaves so much better than sprinters from West Africa?' IMHO the answer isn't breeding or genetics, it's a matter of culture. Jamaica and Trinidad produce great sprinters because the sporting culture of the island is focused on sprinting. The US has fallen off in Men's track because the focus of Men's sport in the US has shifted almost entirely to Football and Basketball. 40 years of Title IX has produced a situation where Women's sports are far more likely to be successful in the Olympics than Men's sports.

bossa · 08-13-2012, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

Less than a quarter century after Jimmy the Greek was fired for saying that?

In the first part of the 20th Century it was argued that Jews shouldn't be allowed to compete against whites because they had better natural rhythm.

What's up next for the BBC? Are the Irish just a bunch of drunken brawlers?

LOL, nothing like getting the ball (brawl) rolling.

I've never heard of Jews having 'natural rhythm' unless this is just an urban myth propagated by George Gershwin.

ihasa · 08-13-2012, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by bossa

I've never heard of Jews having 'natural rhythm' unless this is just an urban myth propagated by George Gershwin.

Maybe that's why that why Bruno Mars sang 'Is it the look in your eyes, or is it these dancing Jews.... (oh baby, I think I wanna marry you)'

**boriscleto** · 08-13-2012, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by bossa

LOL, nothing like getting the ball (brawl) rolling.

I've never heard of Jews having 'natural rhythm' unless this is just an urban myth propagated by George Gershwin.

It comes from the early days of professional basketball in the US. Many of the early pro basketball teams were mostly or all Jewish. Teams like the Cleveland Rosenblums, Philadelphia SPHAs (South Philadelphia Hebrew Association) and the Brooklyn Original Celtics.

pete-tarmigan · 08-13-2012, 08:05 AM

I didn't think the topic was taboo for several years now. I saw an article in a prominent runner's magazine about 5 years ago on the subject. The article discussed the success of people of West African descent in sprinting and East Africans in long-distance running, and their morphologies and those of various other "races" and ethnic groups. The article suggested it was pretty much a given that morphologies like narrow pelvis and long, narrow shin bones allowed faster sprinting.

normhead · 08-13-2012, 08:09 AM

Why anyone would engage in such a ridiculous speculation is beyond me. It's pointless, accept as a way for whites to try and take credit for black accomplishments. (They wouldn't be what they are today if we hadn't taken them and bred them.) That is just so racist it defies logic. Just the concept on it's own is abhorrent. No one is benefiting from slavery except for those rich families that benefited excessively from the labors of others. Funny how no one looks at wealthy families in the Southern US and asks ( would they be as wealthy today if they hadn't worked their slaves to an ealy grave.) Now in terms of the actual practice of slavery and it's social consequences that is a much more relevant question. But it's not a question that is salve for the white conscience so it will probably never be publicly addressed. But if we can make a case for blacks owing their white owners something , as in being bred for speed, then we'll discuss that on TV for millions to watch.

I guess in many cases , when slaves tried to escape, only the ones who were fast enough to outrun the dogs survived, is that what they were talking about? Hmmm they probably didn't mention that or any of the brutality of slavery. I bet it was a conversation full of platitudes. So what about the Nigerian runners who have dominated long distance running, they were never slaves, how did they get to be so fast? How about the English sprinter who is actually faster than everyone on the planets but a half dozen other men, how did he get to be so fast? Would he have been faster if someone in his family had been enslaved. Read European history about what it meant to be a serf. I bet they didn't discuss whether it made a difference if your ancestors were serfs or slaves?

One of the biggest problems with sports, is you have to listen to athletes discuss stuff they know nothing about. Listen, I'm a big Tennis fan, but I wouldn't listen to John McEnroe discuss slavery either. The thing with many athletes is , they are so full of themselves they aren't smart enough to know when they don't know anything about what they are asked, and if they are asked something where they have no expertise they just wade right in anyway. DIsplaying their ignorance is never an issue for them. Not that actors or musicians are any better.

This whole thing is just regrettable.

ihasa · 08-13-2012, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Why anyone would engage in such a ridiculous speculation is beyond me. It's pointless, accept as a way for whites to try and take credit for black accomplishments. (They wouldn't be what they are today if we hadn't taken them and bred them.)

LOL, I had never seen it that way; obviously not personally, but neither in my suspicion that anyone else was trying to claim credit for 'the whites'. It seems an odd thing to want to claim credit for. (I'm sure most white people would rather simply pretend slavery never happened or that it wass actually rather jolly for all concerned and not at all the mindblowing evil which it actually was).

To me it's probably another bit of scientific research that the media has jumped upon, because there's a very controversial idea in there somewhere.

normhead · 08-13-2012, 10:55 AM

Quote:

(I'm sure most white people would rather simply pretend slavery never happened or that it wass actually rather jolly for all concerned and not at all the mindblowing evil which it actually was).

I'm sure most of us would rather forget it happened, as well as indentured workers (called homeboys in this country) and serfs. There are a lot of things that while they have their place in history are pretty much irrelevant in the modern context. And honestly what good does this kind of discussion do? Besides some publicity for tackling a bogus issue. The only way I'm going to be happy with a discussion about the effects of slavery will be if someone figures the economic benefit of slavery to the US and decides to cut me a check for my share. If that's not what you're talking about, it's hot air and exploitation and if you're in my company, I hope you'll talk about something else. It's not something people in my family, white or black, dwell on. At this point none of my living relatives were slaves, I'm 4 generations removed, from when anyone on my family on either side even knew someone who lived under slavery. My grand kids are 6 generations removed, I defy anyone anywhere to identify even one tiny part of my makeup, be it physical or psychological that is a direct result of slavery. The whole concept is just ridiculous.

**Just1MoreDave** · 08-13-2012, 12:21 PM

The math doesn't work out. You'd have maybe 150-200 years of selective breeding, followed by 150+ years of uncontrolled breeding. The years shift a little depending on the slave population you're talking about, but it wouldn't work.

ihasa · 08-13-2012, 02:48 PM

I'm sure that's right Dave. It's much more likely west Africans and their descendants are naturally gifted sprinters, and if the countries of west Africa today had the facilities and culture that the Americans and Jamaicans have, they'd also be dominating sprinting too. I bet if Senegal or Ghana produced one gold medallist, a whole army of successful sprinters would follow. As it is right now though, their best sportsmen follow a well trodden path to European football clubs, which is where the $$$ is.

bossa · 08-13-2012, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by ihasa

Maybe that's why that why Bruno Mars sang 'Is it the look in your eyes, or is it these dancing Jews.... (oh baby, I think I wanna marry you)'

George Gershwin wrote "I've Got Rhythm"... people seemed to have missed my little joke... that's why I brought it up..

**boriscleto** · 08-13-2012, 07:59 PM

Daily Kos: TX man sues grocer for violating civil rights after "negroidal" man bagged his groceries

Maybe he thought the bagger was going to use his slave breeding to run away with his groceries.

magkelly · 08-13-2012, 09:39 PM

Ignorance like that is something we all live with every day where I live. In my family it come in degrees. Some members of my family are better than others, but can all be a bunch of racist idiots sometimes and yes, I do call them on it all the time. Same with the people I live around. They talk a supposedly liberal stance but when it comes down to it they don't want to see a person with a brown face living here or dating their kids. In 5 years of living here I have yet to see anyone who's not white and over 50 in this park. I'm pretty sure I am the only person as young as me living here. I have some neighbors who are gay so that's okay apparently, but racially mixed couples are apparently frowned upon.

I've learned to choose my battles. I can't change people completely. I've tried and tried. I won't tolerate disrespect towards my friends who are AA but when it comes to dating non-white guys I gave that battle up a long time ago. There are just some things you cannot push the men in my family on. I think it's totally stupid of them but they're really stuck in the 50's on that one, though for what it's worth a lot of the older AA people here won't cross racial lines either and they get upset when young people do. Personally I think we live in a pretty f-ed up world when you can't even date someone because of the color of their skin. Caring about who bags my groceries? That someone browner than me packed my groceries? Avoiding that like they have cuties or something? That's just too amazingly stupid to even contemplate.

What are people like this going to do when aliens show up, I wonder? If they can't handle browner skin how in the heck are they going to handle green or blue or variegated silver and ten shades of aqua? Or aliens with 3 genders? All this squabbling about borders and skin tones, it's just so asinine and immature of our whole species. I really hope I live long enough to see someone like that show up here on this planet. I want to watch all these silly people freak out when they finally realize that a little extra melanin isn't anything to get so worked up about.

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08-13-2012, 03:48 AM	#16
wwwmorrell Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Mount Buller, Australia Posts: 397	All athletes, where ever their place in the evolution of man excel in many different sports & endeavors than some of their counterparts. Just the different way nature designed some of us I guess.

08-13-2012, 04:46 AM	#17
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by ihasa I'm sick of hearing white people trying to make an equivalence between 'white slavery' and the transatlantic slave trade, which stands alone as the most atrocious thing man has ever done to his fellow man in recorded history. Slavery was around a long time before that. It was around during all the ancient civilizations. As far as the trans-Atlantic slave trade goes, the shipping companies got the slaves from other Africans. Slavery is a very bad thing. However, it wasn't just peculiar to the trans-Atlantic. Furthermore, not all black Americans are descendants of slaves. Quite a few of my friends and colleagues are African immigrants.

08-13-2012, 05:29 AM	#18
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by Blue Furthermore, not all black Americans are descendants of slaves. Quite a few of my friends and colleagues are African immigrants. The BBC wasn't really talking about American athletes anyway. They were talking about the slave descended athletes from places like Jamaica, Bermuda, Trinidad etc. I think the question is 'Why are sprinters descended from West African slaves so much better than sprinters from West Africa?' IMHO the answer isn't breeding or genetics, it's a matter of culture. Jamaica and Trinidad produce great sprinters because the sporting culture of the island is focused on sprinting. The US has fallen off in Men's track because the focus of Men's sport in the US has shifted almost entirely to Football and Basketball. 40 years of Title IX has produced a situation where Women's sports are far more likely to be successful in the Olympics than Men's sports.

08-13-2012, 06:51 AM	#19
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by boriscleto Less than a quarter century after Jimmy the Greek was fired for saying that? In the first part of the 20th Century it was argued that Jews shouldn't be allowed to compete against whites because they had better natural rhythm. What's up next for the BBC? Are the Irish just a bunch of drunken brawlers? LOL, nothing like getting the ball (brawl) rolling. I've never heard of Jews having 'natural rhythm' unless this is just an urban myth propagated by George Gershwin.

08-13-2012, 07:38 AM	#20
ihasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: West Midlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,066 Original Poster	Originally posted by bossa I've never heard of Jews having 'natural rhythm' unless this is just an urban myth propagated by George Gershwin. Maybe that's why that why Bruno Mars sang 'Is it the look in your eyes, or is it these dancing Jews.... (oh baby, I think I wanna marry you)'

08-13-2012, 07:51 AM	#21
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by bossa LOL, nothing like getting the ball (brawl) rolling. I've never heard of Jews having 'natural rhythm' unless this is just an urban myth propagated by George Gershwin. It comes from the early days of professional basketball in the US. Many of the early pro basketball teams were mostly or all Jewish. Teams like the Cleveland Rosenblums, Philadelphia SPHAs (South Philadelphia Hebrew Association) and the Brooklyn Original Celtics.

08-13-2012, 08:05 AM	#22
pete-tarmigan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Conception Bay South, New-fun-land Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,272	I didn't think the topic was taboo for several years now. I saw an article in a prominent runner's magazine about 5 years ago on the subject. The article discussed the success of people of West African descent in sprinting and East Africans in long-distance running, and their morphologies and those of various other "races" and ethnic groups. The article suggested it was pretty much a given that morphologies like narrow pelvis and long, narrow shin bones allowed faster sprinting.

08-13-2012, 08:09 AM	#23
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Why anyone would engage in such a ridiculous speculation is beyond me. It's pointless, accept as a way for whites to try and take credit for black accomplishments. (They wouldn't be what they are today if we hadn't taken them and bred them.) That is just so racist it defies logic. Just the concept on it's own is abhorrent. No one is benefiting from slavery except for those rich families that benefited excessively from the labors of others. Funny how no one looks at wealthy families in the Southern US and asks ( would they be as wealthy today if they hadn't worked their slaves to an ealy grave.) Now in terms of the actual practice of slavery and it's social consequences that is a much more relevant question. But it's not a question that is salve for the white conscience so it will probably never be publicly addressed. But if we can make a case for blacks owing their white owners something , as in being bred for speed, then we'll discuss that on TV for millions to watch. I guess in many cases , when slaves tried to escape, only the ones who were fast enough to outrun the dogs survived, is that what they were talking about? Hmmm they probably didn't mention that or any of the brutality of slavery. I bet it was a conversation full of platitudes. So what about the Nigerian runners who have dominated long distance running, they were never slaves, how did they get to be so fast? How about the English sprinter who is actually faster than everyone on the planets but a half dozen other men, how did he get to be so fast? Would he have been faster if someone in his family had been enslaved. Read European history about what it meant to be a serf. I bet they didn't discuss whether it made a difference if your ancestors were serfs or slaves? One of the biggest problems with sports, is you have to listen to athletes discuss stuff they know nothing about. Listen, I'm a big Tennis fan, but I wouldn't listen to John McEnroe discuss slavery either. The thing with many athletes is , they are so full of themselves they aren't smart enough to know when they don't know anything about what they are asked, and if they are asked something where they have no expertise they just wade right in anyway. DIsplaying their ignorance is never an issue for them. Not that actors or musicians are any better. This whole thing is just regrettable.

08-13-2012, 10:33 AM	#24
ihasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: West Midlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,066 Original Poster	Originally posted by normhead Why anyone would engage in such a ridiculous speculation is beyond me. It's pointless, accept as a way for whites to try and take credit for black accomplishments. (They wouldn't be what they are today if we hadn't taken them and bred them.) LOL, I had never seen it that way; obviously not personally, but neither in my suspicion that anyone else was trying to claim credit for 'the whites'. It seems an odd thing to want to claim credit for. (I'm sure most white people would rather simply pretend slavery never happened or that it wass actually rather jolly for all concerned and not at all the mindblowing evil which it actually was). To me it's probably another bit of scientific research that the media has jumped upon, because there's a very controversial idea in there somewhere.

08-13-2012, 10:55 AM	#25
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Quote: (I'm sure most white people would rather simply pretend slavery never happened or that it wass actually rather jolly for all concerned and not at all the mindblowing evil which it actually was). I'm sure most of us would rather forget it happened, as well as indentured workers (called homeboys in this country) and serfs. There are a lot of things that while they have their place in history are pretty much irrelevant in the modern context. And honestly what good does this kind of discussion do? Besides some publicity for tackling a bogus issue. The only way I'm going to be happy with a discussion about the effects of slavery will be if someone figures the economic benefit of slavery to the US and decides to cut me a check for my share. If that's not what you're talking about, it's hot air and exploitation and if you're in my company, I hope you'll talk about something else. It's not something people in my family, white or black, dwell on. At this point none of my living relatives were slaves, I'm 4 generations removed, from when anyone on my family on either side even knew someone who lived under slavery. My grand kids are 6 generations removed, I defy anyone anywhere to identify even one tiny part of my makeup, be it physical or psychological that is a direct result of slavery. The whole concept is just ridiculous.

08-13-2012, 12:21 PM	#26
Just1MoreDave Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Aurora, CO Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,340	The math doesn't work out. You'd have maybe 150-200 years of selective breeding, followed by 150+ years of uncontrolled breeding. The years shift a little depending on the slave population you're talking about, but it wouldn't work.

08-13-2012, 02:48 PM	#27
ihasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: West Midlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,066 Original Poster	I'm sure that's right Dave. It's much more likely west Africans and their descendants are naturally gifted sprinters, and if the countries of west Africa today had the facilities and culture that the Americans and Jamaicans have, they'd also be dominating sprinting too. I bet if Senegal or Ghana produced one gold medallist, a whole army of successful sprinters would follow. As it is right now though, their best sportsmen follow a well trodden path to European football clubs, which is where the $$$ is.

08-13-2012, 04:35 PM	#28
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by ihasa Maybe that's why that why Bruno Mars sang 'Is it the look in your eyes, or is it these dancing Jews.... (oh baby, I think I wanna marry you)' George Gershwin wrote "I've Got Rhythm"... people seemed to have missed my little joke... that's why I brought it up..

08-13-2012, 07:59 PM	#29
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Daily Kos: TX man sues grocer for violating civil rights after "negroidal" man bagged his groceries Maybe he thought the bagger was going to use his slave breeding to run away with his groceries.

08-13-2012, 09:39 PM	#30
magkelly Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,901	Ignorance like that is something we all live with every day where I live. In my family it come in degrees. Some members of my family are better than others, but can all be a bunch of racist idiots sometimes and yes, I do call them on it all the time. Same with the people I live around. They talk a supposedly liberal stance but when it comes down to it they don't want to see a person with a brown face living here or dating their kids. In 5 years of living here I have yet to see anyone who's not white and over 50 in this park. I'm pretty sure I am the only person as young as me living here. I have some neighbors who are gay so that's okay apparently, but racially mixed couples are apparently frowned upon. I've learned to choose my battles. I can't change people completely. I've tried and tried. I won't tolerate disrespect towards my friends who are AA but when it comes to dating non-white guys I gave that battle up a long time ago. There are just some things you cannot push the men in my family on. I think it's totally stupid of them but they're really stuck in the 50's on that one, though for what it's worth a lot of the older AA people here won't cross racial lines either and they get upset when young people do. Personally I think we live in a pretty f-ed up world when you can't even date someone because of the color of their skin. Caring about who bags my groceries? That someone browner than me packed my groceries? Avoiding that like they have cuties or something? That's just too amazingly stupid to even contemplate. What are people like this going to do when aliens show up, I wonder? If they can't handle browner skin how in the heck are they going to handle green or blue or variegated silver and ten shades of aqua? Or aliens with 3 genders? All this squabbling about borders and skin tones, it's just so asinine and immature of our whole species. I really hope I live long enough to see someone like that show up here on this planet. I want to watch all these silly people freak out when they finally realize that a little extra melanin isn't anything to get so worked up about.