[boriscleto]

Jews Must Be Converted, Says Family Research Council Vice President | Crooks and Liars

Far-Right Extremists Tried Pinning Blame for Anti-Islam Film on Jews | Crooks and Liars

[boriscleto]

Dwindling In Unbelief: The Innocence of Muslims: An awful film about an even worse man

Have you seen the YouTube video that is driving the Muslim world mad?

Well I have, and it is awful. It might, in fact, be the worst film I've ever seen. If the producers spent $20 making it, they spent way too much.

But I have no quarrel with its content. The movie gives Muhammad (pb&jbup) all the respect he deserves.

[crewl1]

Pride, greed, and ignorance beget all the problems on the planet.

[jogiba]

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[ihasa]

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[causey]

Which religion?
Religion as this or that church?
Religion as fanaticism (fanatic attachment to a set of beliefs)?
Religion as ideology (system of power drawing on the energy of fanaticism)?
Religion as faith in God? But, then, faith in what? What is God? Without having the concept of God, faith in God is idolatry--i.e., the kind of confusion that supports fanaticism. So, religion as idolatry? (A conception/ depiction of God does not necessarily yield the right concept of God. In fact, if properly understood, the concept of God turns out to be incompatible with any conception of God.)

Religion is religare, tying up to... what? Easy to say religion is bad and/or stupid without even trying to investigate what kind of connection "religion" in the most primitive, fundamental, sense is. What if, under this huge worldly torment of misguided passions, covered by the stormy sea of daily noises, there is a stillness so profound, that it can be recognized as what it is only by a sheer receptivity to what there is? A stillness that's peace, and life--to the extent that only in this peace life as such can be found. A stillness which is sheer receptivity to what there is--and what there is is it. What if to be religious, i.e., to have the religious experience, is to be in the state of sheer receptivity to that which is capable of sheer receptivity? Receptivity to oneself: to the innermost part of oneself, which isn't I or you, or him?

Sheer receptivity to what there is (and implicitly to oneself)? That's love, the kind of love of whose experience traditions call Eden. Indeed, Heaven is a place on Earth, except it's not the Earth we can see.

If religion is #1 problem on the planet, it is because people assume they know what they mean when they think "God." And some say, God is love, God is One, God is peace, God is all-powerful, God is Spirit, God is meaning... And some say, nah, God is hate, God is an illusion, God is the object of superstition.
The problem is, people begin with some contingent conception of God. (In other words, they begin with belief, which they take to be faith.) But begin, instead, with the phenomena: for instance, begin with love, life, meaning, Oneness, or power (not human power). Then try to experience the phenomena. If... if, one day, something reveals itself--presumably, because you've become receptive enough to it--as what is closest to you, and closest precisely insofar as it has been farthest from you, such that in feeling it you can say you've find yourself by losing your (old) self, that experience will be so shaking, so primordial, that you won't fail to witness God in the mere phenomena.

The problem is, we are ahead of ourselves and behind ourselves. Restless, we are chasing images that clutter our minds giving us false identities, in virtue of which we rush to utter words and act. We miss the silence, we miss the force-undercurrent of stillness out of which everything grows--we miss ourselves.

Apologies for being quite a bit dramatic.


P.S. During Islam's Golden Age, the West was the savage, 'uncivilized' part of the world. The vicissitudes of history...

[Na Horuk]

I think he meant religion in general, religion as a blind faith, a raw nerve, something that is taboo and off-limits, something that affects every aspect of one's life with no basis in the physical world. Religion is what makes good people do bad things. Bad people will do bad thingy anyway.

[boriscleto]

Mohandas Gandhi (1869-1948)

I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian.
Young India (19 January 1928)

It is impossible for me to reconcile myself to the idea of conversion after the style that goes on in India and elsewhere today. It is an error which is perhaps the greatest impediment to the world’s progress toward peace … Why should a Christian want to convert a Hindu to Christianity? Why should he not be satisfied if the Hindu is a good or godly man?
Harijan (30 January 1937)

Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)
American poet

"Faith" is a fine invention, when gentlemen can see
But microscopes are prudent, in an emergency.

Emil M Cioran (1911-1995)
Rumanian-born French philosopher

God: a disease we imagine we are cured of because no one dies of it nowadays.
-- The Trouble with Being Born, ch. 10 (1973)

Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815-1902)
American feminist and social reformer

The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.

Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914?)
American writer, characterized by his caustic wit and sense of realistic horror

Religions are conclusions for which the facts of nature supply no major premises.
-- Collected Works (1912)

James Joyce (1882-1941)
Irish novelist and poet known for his psychological perceptions and innovative literary techniques

There is no heresy or no philosophy which is so abhorrent to the church as a human being.
-- Letter, 22 Nov. 1902

Ludwig von Feuerbach (1804-1872)
German philosopher

Faith is essentially intolerant ... essentially because necessarily bound up with faith is the illusion that one's cause is also God's cause.

Lucy Colman (1817-1906
American abolitionist and freethinker

Until the majority of the people are emancipated from authority over their minds, we are not safe.
-- referring to the Bible, in Reminiscences, p. 7

Lord Byron (1788-1824)
British poet

Of religion I know nothing -- at least, in its favor.

[jogiba]

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[les3547]

An awful film about an even worse man. . . The movie gives Muhammad (pb&jbup) all the respect he deserves.

What are we to think of this "unbeliever" who is perfectly willing to post a disparaging opinion but doesn't feel it necessary to understand the first thing about Muhammad? I've yet to meet a hater of Muhammad who also has carefully studied his life. I've studied it and I have no idea why anyone would say he is worse than awful.

[boriscleto]

What are we to think of this "unbeliever" who is perfectly willing to post a disparaging opinion but doesn't feel it necessary to understand the first thing about Muhammad? I've yet to meet a hater of Muhammad who also has carefully studied his life. I've studied it and I have no idea why anyone would say he is worse than awful.

Dwindling In Unbelief: Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom

Dwindling In Unbelief: The worth of a woman: the Bible vs. the Quran

Dwindling In Unbelief: Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran? (Lots of violence, but only 4 killed by God.)

Dwindling In Unbelief: God's death toll in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Quran

Dwindling In Unbelief: Death by Stoning: the Bible vs the Quran

Dwindling In Unbelief: Quranet -- Let's pretend the Quran is a good book (Hey, it works for the Bible, doesn't it?)

I've read both No God But God and How to Win a Cosmic War by Reza Aslan. I would not dispute that Mohammed is one of the most despicable historical figures of all time (as opposed the the fictional figures of the Bible). Sure, he stayed faithful to his first wife until she died, and he didn't actually marry a 9 year old (he waited until she was 13), but does that make up for slaughtering anyone who disagreed with his beliefs or was in his way? I will admit that women went from being worth less than dirt to being worth half a man because of his reforms.

[les3547]

I've read both No God But God and How to Win a Cosmic War by Reza Aslan.

Lol, and you think that is studying the life of Muhammed? Sorry for bringing up the subject, I should have known in a thread devoted to HATRED one would find a lot of willful ignorance.

Much of the warrior commentary in the Quran is about purely defensive skirmishes, not wars, that Muslims were involved in to defend themselves from persecution (primarily by the Koreish). There were only five such skirmishes (though another five branched off from them) over a several year period, and afterwards no one was forced to accept Islam, unlike what is commonly believed in the West. Moralistic recommendations found in the Quran were made to a very primitive group; and while some of it we find barbaric today, back then it was a marked improvement over how they had been living; for example, ritualistic cleanliness was likely emphasized to get people to take being clean seriously.

Today, the people who take Quranic text and try to apply it to any other situation than the one Muslims found themselves in centuries ago are lost in anachronistic delusion (a problem all book religions have), but what does that have to do with the kind of man Muhammad was?

The Quran tells us little about Muhammed the man, and a populist book today on Islam tells us even less. Study the Hadith collection at the very least before you accept the opinions of hateful jerks blogging on the internet. I believe Muhammed was a great man, as was Jesus, Moses, and Gautama. The types of religion some (not all) people do in their names . . . that's another issue.

[Na Horuk]

First of all I would say that history is littered with great men. I would not worship any of them.
Secondly, the actual prophet is not that important because various religious groups make myths and turn them into symbols. Its like when people burn the flag of the USA - it is pointless to argue how good the flag is, how well-made it is, what nice shapes and colors are on it. Nobody would die for a flag. But people would die for what it represents. And people would insult it to offend the greater whole. A communication error occurs, though, when different groups use the same symbol (in this case 'Muhammad') but ascribe it different meanings.
And.. I have read some history and not seen much evidence that any of the prophets actually were that special.

I also don't make the mistake to think that those muslims attacking embassies over cartoons and poorly-made films are doing it.. because of the actual cartoons and films. Those are merely symbols that are listed to express all the emotions these people are feeling due to the years of abuse and disrespect by the west. A group catalyzes these emotions over a certain thing (cartoons, films) and uses it for personal political gain. And then right wing parties in the west do the same thing, by pointing at the 'muslim violence' and the 'Quran' for their own political gain. Of course, the problem is that neither side understand the other side correctly, because that would also mean they would have to understand themselves - which can get embarrassing. So instead of coming together and helping each other on a global scale, instead of communicating the true problems, we just shout how wrong the other side is and fight over pointless things, like books and flags.
Religion is a powerful system of myths and symbols which can very easily be used for galvanizing people. Religions also contain rules of behavior and moral codes, but they are horribly antiquated and should not be used anymore because we now have different, better standards.

tl;dr: I'm sorry for writing such a block of text, I am merely trying to explain that there are many dynamics meeting in the space of religions and that I personally think that we would, as a whole, be better off with minimal religions instead of intense religions.

[boriscleto]

Lol, and you think that is studying the life of Muhammed? Sorry for bringing up the subject, I should have known in a thread devoted to HATRED one would find a lot of willful ignorance.

Much of the warrior commentary in the Quran is about purely defensive skirmishes, not wars, that Muslims were involved in to defend themselves from persecution (primarily by the Koreish). There were only five such skirmishes (though another five branched off from them) over a several year period, and afterwards no one was forced to accept Islam, unlike what is commonly believed in the West. Moralistic recommendations found in the Quran were made to a very primitive group; and while some of it we find barbaric today, back then it was a marked improvement over how they had been living; for example, ritualistic cleanliness was likely emphasized to get people to take being clean seriously.

Today, the people who take Quranic text and try to apply it to any other situation than the one Muslims found themselves in centuries ago are lost in anachronistic delusion (a problem all book religions have), but what does that have to do with the kind of man Muhammad was?

The Quran tells us little about Muhammed the man, and a populist book today on Islam tells us even less. Study the Hadith collection at the very least before you accept the opinions of hateful jerks blogging on the internet. I believe Muhammed was a great man, as was Jesus, Moses, and Gautama. The types of religion some (not all) people do in their names . . . that's another issue.

My favorite Hadith is the Lord's Prayer translated to Arabic and atributted to Mohammed. The Hadith, if anything, make Mohammed seem even more despicable. Almost everything wrong with Islam today has its origin in the Hadith. I mention No God But God because it is the only secular history of Mohammed and Islam written by a Muslim that I know of.

No god but God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not singling out Islam or Mohammed here, all Abrahamic religions and their leaders are equally despicable.

[seacapt]

Y'know there is a reason that the two most notorious street gangs in the US are scared of the Nation of Islam crowd.