[VisualDarkness]

Hi,
I just received a mod warning for what I consider a totally harmless word and it reminded me of one thing I always wanted to discuss. Why is "harsher" words such taboo on NA based forums while the threshold usually is way higher on European ones? Don't take this as any critic or objection to the rules of the forums, I'm just interested in the culture and mechanics behind this subject and I've been that for a long long time.

Here's the message I got with a removed word:

Dear VisualDarkness,

This message is intended to serve as a reminder of our forum rules, and pertains to the following post, located at

Originally posted by VisualDarkness:
Sounds great for slow lenses too, as my Sigma 150-500 + 1.5x TC.
The reason for this reminder was: Minor issue

Originally posted by Moderation Team:
Hi,

Just as a minor point, please refrain from using any words that may be considered offensive. There a number of other ways to express your emphasis on how slow your lens focuses.

And my answer to that is:

Hehe, I see what you mean. It's about the 100th time (not here) that I've been warned on North American forums for using offensive words. Hey I'm a swede and in Sweden nobody care about "slightly harsher" words like this but in NA it seems to be a major deal and I've never understood why it's that bad and therefor I forget about it but I'll try to better. Major cultural collisions?
Don't take this as an objection as I understand the rules and try to follow them but at the same time I don't see the real issue and wanted to share a little fun fact about some cultural differences. I would love to get an answer from somebody backing this rule, once again not as an objection it's just that I'm interested in the subject a kind of cultural and language study and maybe finally teach myself the boundaries.

I'm interested in any thoughts from everywhere around the globe. Note that this is not about this forum specifically but a general thing as I've ran into it numerous times and find it interesting.

Peace, love and Love and understanding!

[Na Horuk]

Well, I think the mod explained it well enough."There a number of other ways to express your emphasis on how slow your lens focuses."
While I do agree that there are cultural differences in word usage and tolerance (or even definition) of vulgarity, I don't think this is really the case here. Its more that using harsh words to describe equipment starts little wars and may drive off new users. I think its okay that the mods try to avoid this.
Also, I think it really depends who the forum is intended for. I live in Europe and there are a number of forums where they have high censorship standards and some with almost no rules. The same goes for many NA forums that I know of.

[VisualDarkness]

Well, I think the mod explained it well enough."There a number of other ways to express your emphasis on how slow your lens focuses."
While I do agree that there are cultural differences in word usage and tolerance (or even definition) of vulgarity, I don't think this is really the case here. Its more that using harsh words to describe equipment starts little wars and may drive off new users. I think its okay that the mods try to avoid this.
Also, I think it really depends who the forum is intended for. I live in Europe and there are a number of forums where they have high censorship standards and some with almost no rules. The same goes for many NA forums that I know of.

As I said, this is not about this forum and it's not about protesting. It's about understanding why English speaking forums, specially NA based ones, seems to have a rather low threshold for choice of words while if you use the equal words on Swedish forums nobody will even comment on it. I know a lot of Swedes that runs into English language filters while never even touching the Swedish ones despite using equal or similar wording. I'm not protesting nor object the rules but I want to understand why different countries filter the use of common words in such different way.

[snake]

It's kind of funny how Europeans want things done THEIR WAY when one visits Europe and they do nothing but spend their time blasting America and Americans, but then when it comes time to do things the way of another culture or host, they think a great injustice has taken place because they can't fathom their own rules being applicable to themselves.

Then they act like they don't know how differing cultures work.

And I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I'm calling it like it is, having lived extensively on the NA and Euro continents and various countries within.

[VisualDarkness]

It's kind of funny how Europeans want things done THEIR WAY when one visits Europe and they do nothing but spend their time blasting America and Americans, but then when it comes time to do things the way of another culture or host, they think a great injustice has taken place because they can't fathom their own rules being applicable to themselves.

Then they act like they don't know how differing cultures work.

And I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I'm calling it like it is, having lived extensively on the NA and Euro continents and various countries within.

No no, you misunderstood me entirely. Feel free to ban cussing, swearing and foul language I accept it and I don't want anyone to feel that I'm offending them. I just want to understand the mechanics behind how different countries enforce different levels of tolerance against common words. I Sweden the threshold for choice of word seems to be much higher than the American one, same in the mass media where America got the FCC.

Do I put any morals on which way is the best to go? No.
Is Sweden free of censorship and accepts all kinds of wording? No.

When I was a kid my elementary school decided to start a project to minimize the use of cussing and foul language and at that time I didn't really think about it. Later in high-school I had a language teacher that didn't dislike nor put any ban on traditionally foul words as he said "Foul words are an important part of the language but the problem is that every time you use them you diminish their value and suddenly they loose any power. Too keep them alive only use them when appropriate". That changed black and white view and suddenly I too grew interested in the mechanics behind the words and the meaning we put in them.

With that being said I find it very interesting how hard especially NA forums and media filter them, meaning the words got so much power in them and I want to find the mechanics behind it. It's just some kind of quasi-study thing I got going and I hope that this cleared some things up.

[kenafein]

When I was a kid my elementary school decided to start a project to minimize the use of cussing and foul language and at that time I didn't really think about it. Later in high-school I had a language teacher that didn't dislike nor put any ban on traditionally foul words as he said "Foul words are an important part of the language but the problem is that every time you use them you diminish their value and suddenly they loose any power. Too keep them alive only use them when appropriate". That changed black and white view and suddenly I too grew interested in the mechanics behind the words and the meaning we put in them.

I think you've touched on a point here, but I think the issue has many cultural influences. We certainly have those here that swear, and those that do so to absurd levels. Swearing or making vulgar comments makes them lose their meaning when overused, yes; but when they are used in excess or in anger it shows a level of ignorance of the user. One may think that they are unable to express themselves, and that they must resort to expletives in their anger or frustration. Some people are offended by vulgar words, perhaps, because of our Puritan roots. The United States is a very religious, even extremist, nation. I don't see the problem with a judicious use of a bad word here or there, in appropriate company, but I think the mods are trying to hold us all to a standard of discourse that is higher than you'd hold with your friends, at a pub. This keeps everyone more professional, courteous and on topic. There are many NA forums where rules like these are not observed. I find that they are generally not places where thoughtful and engaging conversation occur, and they tend to hold little value for me.

[jtkratzer]

It's the general p**sification of our society. We're allowed to openly call people (politicians) liars, challenge their integrity, etc, but as soon as you challenge anyone on the forum, who is equally impersonal as an attack on a politician, you get warned.

I was in a conversation not long ago when someone was being quite arrogant and I simply asked "Every been called a (nickname for Richard, male genitalia) before?" and the comment was deleted and I was warned. Also in the same post, "Thank you, Captain Obvious" was also considered offensive.

It's also a significant reason why there's so much road rage - people feel impersonal in their cars and that they will never see these people again and they act the way they do. Same thing on the internet.

When it comes down to it, people aren't held accountable for what they say or do. They would never act the way they if they weren't behind a steering wheel or keyboard.

I don't have a problem with the rules, but I do find the double standard of who we're allowed to be critical of or how we're allowed to challenge the character and integrity of non-forum members unusual.

[VisualDarkness]

I think you've touched on a point here, but I think the issue has many cultural influences. We certainly have those here that swear, and those that do so to absurd levels. Swearing or making vulgar comments lose their meaning when overused, yes; but when they are used in excess or in anger it shows a level of ignorance of the user. One may think that they are unable to express themselves, and that they must resort to expletives in their anger or frustration. Some people are offended by vulgar words, perhaps, because of our Puritan roots. The United States is a very religious, even extremist, nation. I don't see the problem with a judicious use of a bad word here or there, in appropriate company, but I think the mods are trying to hold us all to a standard of discourse that is higher than you'd hold with your friends, at a pub. This keeps everyone more professional, courteous and on topic. There are many NA forums where rules like these are not observed. I find that they are not generally, not always, places where thoughtful and engaging conversation occur, and they tend to hold little value for me.

Thanks for the post, precisely what I was after with this thread. Think you are onto something here with puritan and highly religious roots, compared to Sweden that is one the most secularized and non-religious countries in the world. I find that NA got a bigger difference between general forum language and real life speech than Sweden with as you say "a standard of discourse that is higher than you'd hold with your friends, at a pub". I don't find that as common on Swedish communities as they seem to have more of a "as in real life" approach to it.

Does this mean that foulness of words got a much wider spectrum in North America where more words simply falls over the threshold than in for example Swedish? The wider spectrum would also explain why many swedes find Swedish sounding "dorky" and "dull" compared to Swedish despite how much Swedes get exposed to the English language.

[snake]

No no, you misunderstood me entirely. Feel free to ban cussing, swearing and foul language I accept it and I don't want anyone to feel that I'm offending them. I just want to understand the mechanics behind how different countries enforce different levels of tolerance against common words. I Sweden the threshold for choice of word seems to be much higher than the American one, same in the mass media where America got the FCC.

Do I put any morals on which way is the best to go? No.
Is Sweden free of censorship and accepts all kinds of wording? No.

When I was a kid my elementary school decided to start a project to minimize the use of cussing and foul language and at that time I didn't really think about it. Later in high-school I had a language teacher that didn't dislike nor put any ban on traditionally foul words as he said "Foul words are an important part of the language but the problem is that every time you use them you diminish their value and suddenly they loose any power. Too keep them alive only use them when appropriate". That changed black and white view and suddenly I too grew interested in the mechanics behind the words and the meaning we put in them.

With that being said I find it very interesting how hard especially NA forums and media filter them, meaning the words got so much power in them and I want to find the mechanics behind it. It's just some kind of quasi-study thing I got going and I hope that this cleared some things up.

You do realize that this is a private forum, right? They moderate the way they want to. You're trying to bring up free speech and democracies, not realizing this is a private forum and not a democracy.

Again, refer back to my reply to you, with an essential point you're pretending to not see:

culture.

Do as the hosts do. Just like when foreigners go to your country and you expect them to fall into line, do the unthinkable and reduce yourself to doing as americans do in their virtual space. I know, it's tough, but again, having lived throughout Europe on an integration basis, this appears to be the difficulty you're having- you simply can't fathom reducing yourself to applying your own rules of doing as the "locals" do when it comes to the locals being american and having a different culture. You simply don't want to wrap your head around it.

You even dressed your response in typical Euro arrogance I saw directly while living on the continent, bringing up "elementary school" in a shady, passive-aggressive manner. If you hate americans so much, then maybe you should find a nice Swedish or European forum?

Spending the last five years in Germany drove this point home, as well. They want everyone, including tourists, to know the language and will crap on foreigners and foreign tourists, but when they go to outside countries on vacation, they force the locals to speak German, refusing to use their language or even English, as the international language of tourism. Thus we have rude, inhospitable Germanized vacation ghettos all over Europe, where no one else wants to visit anymore because vacationers from other countries are treated like garbage and insulted to their faces by the Germans.

Get a grip on yourself. The problem isn't that hard to find a solution for. It's only because the context is "American" that you're having a tough time because you want to challenge it.

[bimjo]

You want a simple answer? America is gripped in the throes of a "Political Correctness" movement. In this movement no one can be offended lest they be scarred for life by… a word. I fear that what we are accomplishing is in raising a generation (maybe several generations) that will be unable to cope with teh world at large and will go through life sniffing at "the unfairness of it all."

Makes me sick honestly. I'm glad I won't be around to see it fully implemented.

[kenafein]

Thanks for the post, precisely what I was after with this thread. Think you are onto something here with puritan and highly religious roots, compared to Sweden that is one the most secularized and non-religious countries in the world. I find that NA got a bigger difference between general forum language and real life speech than Sweden with as you say "a standard of discourse that is higher than you'd hold with your friends, at a pub". I don't find that as common on Swedish communities as they seem to have more of a "as in real life" approach to it.

Does this mean that foulness of words got a much wider spectrum in North America where more words simply falls over the threshold than in for example Swedish? The wider spectrum would also explain why many swedes find Swedish sounding "dorky" and "dull" compared to Swedish despite how much Swedes get exposed to the English language.

Very recently it was scandalous for many common words to be allowed on television. Words that are part of the day to day vernacular, for many. The USA is an odd place. We have evidence that sex education and contraceptive use reduce teen pregnancy and that abstinence only education leads to more pregnancies and more abortions. Yet, in many places, we insist on abstinence only education. Violence is embraced, but sexuality and language are repressed, and they become almost fetishized. Care to sponsor me and my family to move to Sweden? I am half swedish by blood.

[VisualDarkness]

You do realize that this is a private forum, right? They moderate the way they want to. You're trying to bring up free speech and democracies, not realizing this is a private forum and not a democracy.

Again, refer back to my reply to you, with an essential point you're pretending to not see:

culture.

Do as the hosts do. Just like when foreigners go to your country and you expect them to fall into line, do the unthinkable and reduce yourself to doing as americans do in their virtual space. I know, it's tough, but again, having lived throughout Europe on an integration basis, this appears to be the difficulty you're having- you simply can't fathom reducing yourself to applying your own rules of doing as the "locals" do when it comes to the locals being american and having a different culture. You simply don't want to wrap your head around it.

You even dressed your response in typical arrogance, bringing up "elementary school" in a shady, passive-aggressive manner. If you hate americans so much, then maybe you should find a nice Swedish or European forum?

Spending the last five years in Germany drove this point home, as well. They want everyone, including tourists, to know the language and will crap on foreigners and foreign tourists, but when they go to outside countries on vacation, they force the locals to speak German, refusing to use their language or even English, as the international language of tourism. Thus we have rude, inhospitable German ghettos all over Europe, where no one else wants to visit anymore.

Get a grip on yourself. The problem isn't that hard to find a solution for. It's only because the context is "American" that you're having a tough time because you want to challenge it.

Actually I don't know why you see it as passive aggressive when I don't put any of my morals into it by deciding right or wrong nor do I see things black or white, it's mostly a dense shade of grey. What I wanted to say with the "school part" was that I've experienced different sides of the subject here in Sweden too and later got to see some of the mechanics behind one important part of languages and I was hooked by the subject. I see a general difference in the use of language between NA and Sweden and I just want explore the mechanics behind it that differs and learn myself to be more open-minded about it.

I understand how it difficult it can be for an American to integrate in Europe with all the negative attitudes, that every single thing you do or speak that is considered traditionally American is seen as an attempt to "occupy" the country with American culture. I'm not innocent and I'm not proud of it either. Especially countries that put lots of pride in their language as Germany and France can be tough even for other Europeans that don't speak the native language.

[LaurenOE]

Censorship here is also gender biased.
I have noticed that I have gotten "friendly" reminders about tone and such that the male members get away with. I'm expected to "behave" in my posts, but I've been intimidated when I post threads that some members "don't like" or think pithy in their eyes.

Because I am a Pentaxian, and this is a pretty good forum - I personally like Adam, I take it like a woman.

I'd love to know the female to male ratio of the moderators here.

[VisualDarkness]

You want a simple answer? America is gripped in the throes of a "Political Correctness" movement. In this movement no one can be offended lest they be scarred for life by… a word. I fear that what we are accomplishing is in raising a generation (maybe several generations) that will be unable to cope with teh world at large and will go through life sniffing at "the unfairness of it all."

Makes me sick honestly. I'm glad I won't be around to see it fully implemented.

Very recently it was scandalous for many common words to be allowed on television. Words that are part of the day to day vernacular, for many. The USA is an odd place. We have evidence that sex education and contraceptive use reduce teen pregnancy and that abstinence only education leads to more pregnancies and more abortions. Yet, in many places, we insist on abstinence only education. Violence is embraced, but sexuality and language are repressed, and they become almost fetishized. Care to sponsor me and my family to move to Sweden? I am half swedish by blood.

I'm don't want to put my morals and ethics into the subject and decide what's wrong or right, that just leads to flaming. We're sadly already there in this thread and it was not at all my intention. Political correctness as a tool to change the general opinion in different ways is not an American thing, it exists everywhere in the world and is very common in Sweden too.

[VisualDarkness]

Censorship here is also gender biased.
I have noticed that I have gotten "friendly" reminders about tone and such that the male members get away with. I'm expected to "behave" in my posts, but I've been intimidated when I post threads that some members "don't like" or think pithy in their eyes.

Because I am a Pentaxian, and this is a pretty good forum - I personally like Adam, I take it like a woman.

I'd love to know the female to male ratio of the moderators here.

The gender side of it is really interesting too. But please keep away from criticizing this forum and mods here as that is far from my intentions with this thread. It was aimed to explore the mechanics behind the relationship to languages in different cultures and I don't know when it will be considered hostile or aggressive against the people running this site.