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11-02-2012, 04:51 PM   #46
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Difference btw an election promise or prediction and a lie

Rommney I will create 12 million new jobs that would be a prediction or a promise

Rommny Jeep is moving their plant to China not according to the owners of the plant

Obama bipartisian the former kind closing Gitzmo might or might not be the latter depending on why he has not yet done so

11-02-2012, 11:51 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Difference btw an election promise or prediction and a lie

Rommney I will create 12 million new jobs that would be a prediction or a promise

Rommny Jeep is moving their plant to China not according to the owners of the plant

Obama bipartisian the former kind closing Gitzmo might or might not be the latter depending on why he has not yet done so
Actually, the part about the 12 million jobs has been shown to be something of a lie. That is what is expected under the current programs. Fact Check: Romney’s 12 million jobs. It is like promising your policies will cause the sun to rise in the east.
11-05-2012, 10:19 PM   #48
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So we have 47 replies but nobody has directly addressed JKratzer's original point or either of his links.
I especialy like this from the WSJ article.......
Books will be written about what happened, but early on the president made two terrible legislative decisions. The stimulus bill was a political disaster, and it wasn't the cost, it was the content. We were in crisis, losing jobs. People would have accepted high spending if it looked promising. But the stimulus was the same old same old, pure pork aimed at reliable constituencies. It would course through the economy with little effect. And it would not receive a single Republican vote in the House (three in the Senate), which was bad for Washington, bad for our politics. It was a catastrophic victory. It did say there was a new boss in town. But it also said the new boss was out of his league.

Then health care, a mistake beginning to end. The president's 14-month-long preoccupation with ObamaCare signaled that he did not share the urgency of people's most immediate concerns—jobs, the economy, all the coming fiscal cliffs. The famous 2,000-page bill added to their misery by adding to their fear


The piece about Benghazi sounds spot on to me too.
Some day books will also be written about the truth behind the Benghazi and Fast /Furious coverups

BTW I used to think Jimmy Carter was the worst Pres during my lifetime but at least he wasn't a total con artist.

Last edited by seacapt; 11-05-2012 at 10:27 PM.
11-06-2012, 06:15 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
So we have 47 replies but nobody has directly addressed JKratzer's original point or either of his links.
I especialy like this from the WSJ article.......
[B][I]Books will be written about what happened, but early on the president made two terrible legislative decisions. The stimulus bill was a political disaster, and it wasn't the cost, it was the content. We were in crisis, losing jobs. People would have accepted high spending if it looked promising. But the stimulus was the same old same old, pure pork aimed at reliable constituencies. It would course through the economy with little effect. And it would not receive a single Republican vote in the House (three in the Senate), which was bad for Washington, bad for our politics. It was a catastrophic victory. It did say there was a new boss in town. But it also said the new boss was out of his league.
ACTUALLY the unwritten story, and the one barely touched upon was the stimulus was done the way it was done
(unfortunately it was known to be not totally correct) was because it was the only pathway that could be done "immediately" w/ consensus of Congress... The CORRECT stimulus would have taken months if not years to pass (this is fairly bi-partisan)............................
The economy (i.e. banks) had to be fixed right away..
AND much of it was built on the Bust head start......

It was a patch.. that stopped the bleeding.




QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
Then health care, a mistake beginning to end. The president's 14-month-long preoccupation with ObamaCare signaled that he did not share the urgency of people's most immediate concerns—jobs, the economy, all the coming fiscal cliffs. The famous 2,000-page bill added to their misery by adding to their fear
The healthcare bill had to be passed at this time.. or reform would have never ever ever been considered again ... see the generation track record. Biggest mistake was taking out the public option (well Medicare for all would have been the correct way) but THIS would have never gotten through congress, then and certainly not now..

There was "failure" due to compromise.. but the premise.. something must be done, fix errors later.. was sound in my mind

IF the propaganda machine didn't take over there would have been a LOT LESS fear of ANYTHING.. Face it you refuse to see culpability in "those guys" .......... which is blinding you to the correct reasoning.. I read it in all your threads.. Fear is an easy sell w/ an "unknown"........

THINK about it.. if conservatives had given even a teeny tiny bit of credibility to "Romneycare" (or call it the Gingrich/Heritage Foundation plan if you like) the fear factor would have been greatly reduced.. Reducing it even farther would be the absence of birther garbage, religious garbage .(Obama is a Muslim) and social garbage (left wing socialist which is NOT even CLOSE to being the truth) funny how they say Obamacare is a "giveaway" to big ins... what "socialist" would support THAT idea.. THINK

The fear was spread by the right based on its hate of Obama.. and the fact that NOTHING is perfect gives only a tiny bit of credibility to the arguement.

The right sowed fear and dissent like a "pet rock"...........

As to writing books.. maybe you should read one first..........

http://startingpoint.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/15/new-book-traces-the-history-of...n-the-economy/

QuoteQuote:
A recent report from the credit rating agency "Fitch" says the stimulus helped prevent the recession from becoming a depression, but it's critics on the campaign trail maintain that the package has not worked to improve the economy.
Isn't STOPPING a depression a pretty darn good starting point??? do you hear this much..

"SURE it stopped us from the soup lines but it hasn't helped me to be able to buy a new boat"

http://startingpoint.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/15/new-book-traces-the-history-of...n-the-economy/




Last edited by jeffkrol; 11-06-2012 at 06:23 AM.
11-06-2012, 06:31 AM   #50
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As to the stimulus.. I can count some major errors of thinking in this "academic piece" alone..
Stimulus by Spending Cuts: Lessons from 1946 | Jason E. Taylor and Richard K. Vedder | Cato Institute: Policy Report

The 2 biggest

1)WW2 "stimulus spending was still floating around after the war.. therefore wages and industry were flush.. CATO tried to stop at the very moment of disengagement when that is not only disingenuous but wrong

2) Clinton "surplus" brought on the Bush recession.........

Those 2 errors disqualify CATO.........

QuoteQuote:
While Keynesianism fell out of style during the 1980s and 1990s — recall that Bill Clinton's secretary of treasury Robert Rubin turned Keynesian economics completely on its head when he claimed that surpluses, not deficits, stimulate the economy — during the recessions of 2001 and 2007-09 Keynesianism has come back with a vengeance. Both Presidents Bush and Obama, along with the Greenspan/Bernanke Federal Reserve, have instituted Keynesian-style stimulus policies — enhanced government spending (Obama's $787 billion package), tax cuts to put money in people's hands to increase consumption (the Bush tax "rebate" checks of 2001 and 2008), and loose monetary policy (the Federal Reserve's leaving its target interest rate below 2 percent for an extended period from 2001 to 2004 and cutting to near zero during the Great Recession of 2007-09 and its aftermath).
Read and think carefully.............Cato couldn't be more wrong in their assessment.

Again MY bottom line is not how much the fed spends (withing the bounds of reality) but what it spends it on... During WW2 they didn't "throw money" at the banks and yes that plan (though ideologically toxic to conservatives.. i.e GM) should have been reenacted today (good luck getting $1 thorough our hate filled Congress) but the bank stimulus prevented a lot worse situation.. which technically might have lead to the more correct stimulus.. but might not have either.. were you willing to endure that pain and take that risk that Congree would "wake up" before the pitchfork, torch wielding peasants showed up at their doorstep...........................

Last edited by jeffkrol; 11-06-2012 at 06:38 AM.
11-06-2012, 07:07 AM - 2 Likes   #51
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jtktatzer, really, it's election day, it's too late... you're not going to change anyone's vote...

QuoteQuote:
Obama is responsible for failed leadership and demanding bipartisan effort, bipartisan effort he promised. He failed to releazied the promised he made because on his failure to cooperate with Congress.
I have watched 4 years of the most defeatist, negative bi-partisan Republican idiocy for the last 4 years. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? The vitriole that comes from you and your kind is what has paralyzed the US for the last 4 years. You make it sound like there is something Obama could have done to make silk purses out of these sow ears. What you don't understand is that buying in to the other guys rhetoric and doing exactly what they want, is not compromise, it's capitulation. Even though a huge number of Americans still expect that from blacks, Obama never played into it. To me, this is the Republican's last stand. They have lost the ability to function rationally and for the good of the country. They don't deserve to be elected anywhere. What a bunch of whining cry babies. I don't see how the US can do anything but fall in to anything but dis-array, in the coming years, whether or not Obama or Romney wins.. four years of Republican lollygagging have put the country a century behind. That's the one thing Republicans don't seem to understand. If you don't do what's good for the country, eventually you don't have a country. The US is pretty much down the tube. Any country can only survive if people respect differences. There is no respect in the Republican Party for minorities, poor people, Democrats, take your pick. If the Republicans retain any semblance of power after the next election, the US will go the way of Italy and Greece. We'll be saying, "They were a great military power, but they over extended themselves, ruined their environment to the point where they couldn't sustain themselves and became a country of squabblers."

Personally I think the US cannot be salvaged. Guys like Romney are already looting what's left of the country. Believe it or not "privatisation" just means selling stuff we all own to rich people so they can take more of what little money we have left.

Your analysis stands as an example of what's wrong with the US. The American people elected Obama, the Republican party chose to stick it in their faces and do their best to cripple him. The trouble is, sticking it to Obama and running the country are two different things. The fact that you've become adept at tearing down, doesn't mean you can put anything back together. They are two different skill sets.

The worst thing that could happen to Republicans right now would be a Romney victory. IN fact, the country is in such bad shape, my opinion is "whoever wins loses." The next 4 years will be blamed on them, and the country is in such bad shape, all either one of them will be able to say after 4 years is "the other guy would have done worse?" and who's going to believe that?
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