[ihasa]

File:Federal Debt 1901-2010.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not sure what source you are referring to, but the deficit is growing at the fastest pace since 1939. His original promise was to cut the deficit by 50% in 4 years, and instead he has increased it by 60%. At the level of the Presidency you don't get to claim ignorance of the facts as a defense.

FY 2009†: $1,413 billion (The year of financial collapse - under Bush's watch).
FY 2010: $1,293 billion
FY 2011: $1,300 billion
FY 2012: $1,089 billion
FY 2013 (Est): $901 billion

Yep I agree ignorance of the facts is not a defense, but ignorance of the future is forgiveable. Obama only had estimates of the financial difficulties to go on. He should probably not have made such a bold promise.

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Last edited by ihasa; 11-08-2012 at 05:52 AM.

[Medium FormatPro]

I might be wrong but I do believe I read that one of the problems with sending the prisoners back is there is often times nowhere for them to go, their own country refuses them and where do you drop them off? The US cannot force other countries to take them nor can they drop them out of the sky. And it would be political suicide to let them loose in the USA itself. Even the lone Canadian was only returned to Canada this year and I am sure the delay was our government's refusal to accept him. That is more a shame on us then on the US.

So where does he set them free? Especially if they are citizens of countries that would harm them even though the US viewed them as innocent. IMHO this is a problem that is beyond politics and my comments are not a defense of Obama's handling of Gitzmo but more what he probably faced and what McCain would have faced as well. Gitzmo was ill conceived as there never was the "what do we do with them afterwards" consideration when it was started. I bet Obama made the original promise as he believed it should be closed and has not because of roadblocks that are to a certain extent beyond his control. The President is not the president of the world and he cannot always control what is beyond his control.

There is an assumption in your accusation that the lack of results are due to lack of effort not that it might be a more difficult feat to accomplish. Where do they go when they are set free? The States has a responsiblity for these people's well being and for them to be released where it is safe to do so and not accepting this responsibilty is simply not right.

It's also much larger than Gitmo.

There are present day more than one thousand people throughout the world being held under extraordinary rendition - a "genius idea" by Clinton, but never used until Bush. Sorry there will never be an official link or published stats on that one anytime soon.

The extraordinary rendition thing allows for a prisoner to be held indefinately and without any rights at all. Ironically the official united states story is that not even one person has been held this way. Although secret prisons have in fact been uncovered in the past - along with a portion of their financing and also a few of the government agencies that run them.

This rendition thing is also in additon to the many tens of thousands of prisoners that have been collected in places such as Iraq. Up until relatively recently they were under the watchful eye of the military - anyone remember the West Virginia reservists that tortured the prisoners in Iraq and were caught doing it ??

Now those prisoners in Iraq are under the watchful eye of united states civilian contractors and also Iraq citizens directly financed by the united states. There are also rendition cases being held at various locations in Iraq still directly operated by our government - first hand.

And america wonders why they have so many enemies -also noting not all of them are on foreign lands

[seacapt]

Was he just saying what he thought he needed to say to get elected?

I think you summed it all up right there

[normhead]

Politicians signal their intentions, and what their preferences would be in a perfect world. Reality bites them as hard as it bite anyone else. However, it's just as valuable to elect someone based on what they would do if they could, if you share those values. If Obama promised to get rid of Gitmo and couldn't, I still have more faith in that than someone who didn't understand the basic philosophical difficulties with a place like Gitmo existing in the first place. Gitmo is a huge legal and civil rights contradiction. As is the rendition thing. Saying what you need to say to get elected, is fine, if you honestly believe what the majority of the population believes to be moral and right. But his first priority is to keep the country safe. I'm sure Gitmo will be open until Obama is convinced it's no longer needed for the US's national security. And the day it's no longer needed, it will be gone, just like he promised. Personally, I wouldn't advise him to handle it any differently.

[Blue]

Politicians signal their intentions, and what their preferences would be in a perfect world. Reality bites them as hard as it bite anyone else. However, it's just as valuable to elect someone based on what they would do if they could, if you share those values. If Obama promised to get rid of Gitmo and couldn't, I still have more faith in that than someone who didn't understand the basic philosophical difficulties with a place like Gitmo existing in the first place. Gitmo is a huge legal and civil rights contradiction. As is the rendition thing. Saying what you need to say to get elected, is fine, if you honestly believe what the majority of the population believes to be moral and right. But his first priority is to keep the country safe. I'm sure Gitmo will be open until Obama is convinced it's no longer needed for the US's national security. And the day it's no longer needed, it will be gone, just like he promised. Personally, I wouldn't advise him to handle it any differently.

I am sure it could be arranged if you are willing to bivouac some of the inmates at your place in the event their homeland won't take them back.

[magkelly]

Of course Obama said exactly what people wanted to hear to get elected. I knew that while he was saying it actually. His carny act was fun to watch but I never took him seriously, ever. He's as slick as any politician, more than most actually, but he's got the advantage of being younger than a lot of them and of having an extremely likable face and don't think he doesn't know that and use it well. But what comes out of his mouth, that's utter BS a lot of the time. He does what he wants and if he can't get what he wants easily he goes around those who oppose him in any way he has to. Or if he can't he snaps and blames anyone handy. 4 years in office anyone who hasn't seen how he operates is pretty blind. He's a total slick operator, Obama. But looking at the opposition this time? That was far worse. I still wish Clinton had been elected the first time though. She'd have made a heck of a president, I think.

[Winder]

I still wish Clinton had been elected the first time though. She'd have made a heck of a president, I think.

Hillary is definitely smarter and had a better understanding of what was at stake. I'm not a fan of Hillary, but I would have taken her over Obama. I think she would have pursued the economic policies that worked so well for Bill Clinton, which would have made her 10x better than Bush or Obama when it comes to the economy, but even Jimmy Carter looks good compared to our last two Presidents.

[Nesster]

The *#*^%$##@$** campaign is over!

Apparently, it isn't too soon to start 2016...

Let the 2016 Campaign Season Begin! -- Daily Intel

Cherubic Senator Marco Rubio is headed to Iowa next weekend to headline Republican Governor Terry Branstad's "birthday fundraiser." The 2012 race ended more than a day ago. Finally, we're moving on to 2016.

[Ratmagiclady]

I am sure it could be arranged if you are willing to bivouac some of the inmates at your place in the event their homeland won't take them back.

Cons try to ascribe and project sinister motives to this whole thing. Tend to forget that the Bush administration was defending torture and trying to put more people in Gitmo... Till Obama made his campaign promise.... Then Bush released all the non-problematic inmates there (another of his 'on the way out the door' moves, like big bank bailout agreements. ...*because* Obama stood up on that one.

Like the 'off-budget' trillions Bush spent, and the bailout 'post-dated check' he wanted to put all the blame on Obama while confusing people who made the messes.

[Blue]

Cons try to ascribe and project sinister motives to this whole thing. Tend to forget that the Bush administration was defending torture and trying to put more people in Gitmo... Till Obama made his campaign promise.... Then Bush released all the non-problematic inmates there (another of his 'on the way out the door' moves, like big bank bailout agreements. ...*because* Obama stood up on that one.

Like the 'off-budget' trillions Bush spent, and the bailout 'post-dated check' he wanted to put all the blame on Obama while confusing people who made the messes.

Its the problem inmates that are the problem in that their return is refused etc. This other stuff isn't the current problem nor was it referenced in the post.

[magkelly]

I'm not a huge proponent of the death penalty but I tend to make exceptions for people like terrorists, people who kill defenseless little kids because they're upset about a spouse divorcing them (or mad at their boss) for serial killers, spree killers, mass murderers, etc. Jailing a terrorist for 20 years then sending them home is a bad idea anyway. What are they going to do when they get out except find a way to get back with their original agenda? You think someone with that radical mindset is going to just quit? Of course not. Of course their original country doesn't want them. Who would?

There's only one logical end to someone like this. Put them to death before they hurt someone else. It's either that or you have to build a prison and keep them locked up for life which is I think a rather big waste of taxes and resources. Killing them can make them martyrs to their own kind unfortunately but better that than the alternative, sending them back home so they can just plan another terrorist attack.

I don't however like seeing people tortured and kept indefinitely sans decent cause or representation. That my country would ever be a party to that really disturbs me. That's not what America is supposed to be. We're supposed to be better than that. But to be honest it's always been going on because the "land of the free and the brave" can do some awful things in the name of liberty sometimes. There have been atrocities committed all through our history by our so called democratic government. Those history books kids read at school, that's a sanitized and slanted view of how this county operates that's for sure.

Places like that prison they should not even exist here, but they do, and they will go on existing, either in the public eye or out of it, I believe so long as there is such senseless violence in the world. Some would say it's a necessary evil and maybe it is, in this day, in this age, but I love my country and believe in what it should be and it deeply saddens me to think that it does exist, in my country, which is supposed to be one of the most just and freedom loving in the world.

I grew up in a military family. Patriotism is something I got fed along with my pap. I grew up honestly believing my country was the best one in the world. But the abuses of the past few years, they have totally alienated me from my true pride in my country. To love the ideal, I just don't know if that quite cuts it anymore. I think that patriotic idealism took a blow the first time I really came to understand what was done in Vietnam. The Iraqi-Afghanistan War that's just got me all turned around. I now get why so many people were so upset with the war in Vietnam, why they opposed it in a way I never got when I was reading about it in school.

Obama he talks about a kinder, more compassionate America one that will befriend and lead the world into a better tomorrow. But I just do not see that America at all. Its just too much of a contradiction to me this never ending war on terrorism and the way this country is supposed to be. I don't have a choice for now but once my parents are gone I just may sell up everything I own and take the last few years of my life and travel the rest of the world. Emigration and visa difficulties be darned. I just don't know anymore that I want to live out the rest of my life in my own country. Not if it's going to be like this, or worse for the rest of it.

I used to envy my little nieces the long lives in front of them but not so much anymore. I'm more afraid of their living in this strange new world with all it's violence and it's non-stop connectivity. They'll have to make their own way in it, as I did in my time, but I really don't know that it's going to be a world that I'd want to live in for much longer. I think 65-70 years of it would be more than enough....

[Blue]

Not so fast Jim. There is a clamor in south Florida that old Jeb is going to run in 2016 against Marco Rubio. There is also speculation the Hillary will step down in January in preparation for a run at the White House.

[jeffkrol]

Not so fast Jim. There is a clamor in south Florida that old Jeb is going to run in 2016 against Marco Rubio. There is also speculation the Hillary will step down in January in preparation for a run at the White House.

Hillary will never run.... they'd tie Benghazi on her neck and finally off Obama's...............

[grhazelton]

A little part of me was actually looking forward to finding out what Mitt's policies actually would have been. Guess now we'll never know....

Right! But you'd have had an ocean away from the craziness, and you could sit back, enjoy a pint, relax, and feel comfort and secure in the British National Health while you watched our wacko right-wing House of Representatives work with Mittens to wreck Obamacare, the first meaningful health care delivery reform in generations.

I'm so relieved that Obama won that I won't have to worry about various friends and relatives going bankrupt trying to pay medical bills. Hallelujah!

[JohnInIndy]

Cons try to ascribe and project sinister motives to this whole thing. Tend to forget that the Bush administration was defending torture and trying to put more people in Gitmo... Till Obama made his campaign promise.... Then Bush released all the non-problematic inmates there (another of his 'on the way out the door' moves, like big bank bailout agreements. ...*because* Obama stood up on that one.

Like the 'off-budget' trillions Bush spent, and the bailout 'post-dated check' he wanted to put all the blame on Obama while confusing people who made the messes.

Well everything we have spent since the Obama took office is off budget. How many budgets have been passed since he was elected? How many of his budgets has Harry tabled since He was elected?