China's Ghost Cities

Winder · 11-21-2012, 12:03 PM

Youtu.be

China Will Build the Tallest Building In the World in Just 90 Days (Updated)

I see people point to China's GDP as though China is some sort of government planned success story. The literally hundreds of billions of dollars that are wasted on projects like these show up as a positive for Chinese GDP. This is why GDP per capita is a very suspect number and demonstrates just how easy it is for a government to lie with statistics.

By wasting billions if not trillions of dollars on state projects and infrastructure China can show growth and a per-capita GDP that does not actually reflect the level of poverty in the country.

And even if you are one of the people who think it does not matter what government spends money on as long as they spend money and point to all of the people who got paid to build these empty cities, think of the natural resources that have been wasted in the construction. How many tons of copper and aluminum for the electrical? How much concrete? How much oil and energy was consumed to produce nothing of value? How much energy is wasted just to keep the lights on and the utilities going? How much clean water is lost because a pipe breaks and nobody is there to fix it?

Blue · 11-21-2012, 03:30 PM

Many of the Olympic facilities are essentially abandoned and rotting down.

jeffkrol · 11-21-2012, 03:58 PM

and to think all those suppliers and people who built those "cities" got to eat for a day...............or week or months...
I'm sure the global suppiers of the materials pointyed out the "folly" to the Chinese govmt.... and were led kicking and screaming to the bank

Blue · 11-21-2012, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

and to think all those suppliers and people who built those "cities" got to eat for a day...............

Think about all civil works projects that could be done in the various rural provinces rather than empty malls.

jeffkrol · 11-21-2012, 04:04 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Blue

Think about all civil works projects that could be done in the various rural provinces rather than empty malls.

I agree.. substitute US for China and military spending for malls...you can substitue "civil works" for anything you want except a casino..

Blue · 11-21-2012, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

I agree.. substitute US for China and military spending for malls...you can substitue "civil works" for anything you want except a casino..

Well, I don't agree with certain military actions. However, if it weren't for a military, China would be building malls in Wisconsin if the Soviets, Germans or Japanese hadn't beat them to it. The Russians would still like to. I think they have a cheese shortage.

The Chinese still has a very large military.

jeffkrol · 11-21-2012, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Blue

Well, I don't agree with certain military actions. However, if it weren't for a military, China would be building malls in Wisconsin if the Soviets, Germans or Japanese hadn't beat them to it. The Russians would still like to. I think they have a cheese shortage.

The Chinese still has a very large military.

I only use the military because its "trust fund" is always full...............and its one of the few things conservatives believe that "funding is never a problem".........and are free to spend trillions of our fiat money on and not increase anyones taxes.. broken clock theory.........

Blue · 11-21-2012, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

I only use the military because its "trust fund" is always full...............

It doesn't have a "trust fund." However, China isn't building just malls. They have built "Ghost" cities in various areas of China.

Ordos, China: A Modern Ghost Town - Photo Essays - TIME

and

Adrienne Arsenault: Ghost city shows cracks in China's urban planning - World - CBC News

They have even constructed one in Angola.

Photos Of A Massive Chinese-Built Ghost Town In Angola - Business Insider

**boriscleto** · 11-21-2012, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Blue

Well, I don't agree with certain military actions. However, if it weren't for a military, China would be building malls in Wisconsin if the Soviets, Germans or Japanese hadn't beat them to it. The Russians would still like to. I think they have a cheese shortage.

The Chinese still has a very large military.

None of those countries has ever had a Navy capable of that. The Japanese were close, but they didn't have the population or the resources to sustain their Empire building. The Germans over reached trying to take Europe, twice. The Chinese still spend a fraction of what the US does on the military. They have 8,000 tanks, but what good are those on the other side of the Pacific? Their aviation industry is a joke, and has been since Mao killed all the engineers and had farmers run the factories.

jeffkrol · 11-21-2012, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Blue

It doesn't have a "trust fund." However, China isn't building just malls. They have built "Ghost" cities in various areas of China.

Ordos, China: A Modern Ghost Town - Photo Essays - TIME

and

Adrienne Arsenault: Ghost city shows cracks in China's urban planning - World - CBC News

They have even constructed one in Angola.

Photos Of A Massive Chinese-Built Ghost Town In Angola - Business Insider

The trust fund was in reference to soc. sec.. and the mistaken belief that a trust fund is necessary ect..

In other words every gov. program is not bound by a trust fund, nor apparently needing to be paid for... except as a twisted "selling point"........

Blue · 11-21-2012, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by boriscleto

None of those countries has ever had a Navy capable of that. The Japanese were close, but they didn't have the population or the resources to sustain their Empire building. The Germans over reached trying to take Europe, twice. The Chinese still spend a fraction of what the US does on the military. They have 8,000 tanks, but what good are those on the other side of the Pacific? Their aviation industry is a joke, and has been since Mao killed all the engineers and had farmers run the factories.

Acutally, the Soviets had the capability and the Russians were active in the Gulf of Mexico this summer. China is working on a navy. However, I wasn't referring about what they could or could not do in the past, but what they would like to do.

Edit: Don't forget about the Brittish, French, Italians, and Spanish.

Originally posted by jeffkrol

The trust fund was in reference to soc. sec.. and the mistaken belief that a trust fund is necessary ect..

In other words every gov. program is not bound by a trust fund, nor apparently needing to be paid for... except as a twisted "selling point"........

I realize it was, and I agree that the SS should be kept separate like it is supposed to be. But back on topic, what about those Ghost City links? That is very surreal given the state of conditions in places around the world.

Winder · 11-22-2012, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

and to think all those suppliers and people who built those "cities" got to eat for a day...............or week or months...
I'm sure the global suppiers of the materials pointyed out the "folly" to the Chinese govmt.... and were led kicking and screaming to the bank

There is no doubt there are a lot of people who made a lot of money doing something that never needed to be done, and with you economic model that is probably a good thing. Some people however think government has a responsibility to maximize it resources and ensure that the greatest good can be accomplished with the resources that are available.

The question is not whether or not some people profited from the "folly" of the Chinese government. The question is could the money and resources that were used to build empty cities have been used to improve the lives of hundreds of millions of people? Was building these cities a good use of resources?

Winder · 11-22-2012, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Blue

But back on topic, what about those Ghost City links? That is very surreal given the state of conditions in places around the world.

I think it would be fun to photograph the area. The waste is on a scale that is hard to fathom. One of the cities was built to accommodate a population of 14 million people.... NYC is only 8 million. What would it cost to build NYC?

Nesster · 11-22-2012, 05:55 AM

I think of ancient Egypt, where the pharaos would engage in massive building projects. Akhenaten had a whole new royal city built, all new temples for the new religion, and by the time he died all of that was abandoned.

From the distance of time, what was that all about, economically speaking? IMO this gets at the basic relationship between economics and culture.

jeffkrol · 11-22-2012, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Winder

I think it would be fun to photograph the area. The waste is on a scale that is hard to fathom. One of the cities was built to accommodate a population of 14 million people.... NYC is only 8 million. What would it cost to build NYC?

When the coasts start to flood "we" may need that city (assuming it is built inland)...............

11-21-2012, 04:55 PM	#11
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by boriscleto None of those countries has ever had a Navy capable of that. The Japanese were close, but they didn't have the population or the resources to sustain their Empire building. The Germans over reached trying to take Europe, twice. The Chinese still spend a fraction of what the US does on the military. They have 8,000 tanks, but what good are those on the other side of the Pacific? Their aviation industry is a joke, and has been since Mao killed all the engineers and had farmers run the factories. Acutally, the Soviets had the capability and the Russians were active in the Gulf of Mexico this summer. China is working on a navy. However, I wasn't referring about what they could or could not do in the past, but what they would like to do. Edit: Don't forget about the Brittish, French, Italians, and Spanish. Originally posted by jeffkrol The trust fund was in reference to soc. sec.. and the mistaken belief that a trust fund is necessary ect.. In other words every gov. program is not bound by a trust fund, nor apparently needing to be paid for... except as a twisted "selling point"........ I realize it was, and I agree that the SS should be kept separate like it is supposed to be. But back on topic, what about those Ghost City links? That is very surreal given the state of conditions in places around the world. Last edited by Blue; 11-21-2012 at 05:00 PM.

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11-21-2012, 03:30 PM	#2
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Many of the Olympic facilities are essentially abandoned and rotting down.

11-21-2012, 03:58 PM	#3
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	and to think all those suppliers and people who built those "cities" got to eat for a day...............or week or months... I'm sure the global suppiers of the materials pointyed out the "folly" to the Chinese govmt.... and were led kicking and screaming to the bank

11-21-2012, 04:00 PM	#4
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by jeffkrol and to think all those suppliers and people who built those "cities" got to eat for a day............... Think about all civil works projects that could be done in the various rural provinces rather than empty malls.

11-21-2012, 04:04 PM - 1 Like	#5
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by Blue Think about all civil works projects that could be done in the various rural provinces rather than empty malls. I agree.. substitute US for China and military spending for malls...you can substitue "civil works" for anything you want except a casino..

11-21-2012, 04:12 PM	#6
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by jeffkrol I agree.. substitute US for China and military spending for malls...you can substitue "civil works" for anything you want except a casino.. Well, I don't agree with certain military actions. However, if it weren't for a military, China would be building malls in Wisconsin if the Soviets, Germans or Japanese hadn't beat them to it. The Russians would still like to. I think they have a cheese shortage. The Chinese still has a very large military.

11-21-2012, 04:33 PM	#7
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by Blue Well, I don't agree with certain military actions. However, if it weren't for a military, China would be building malls in Wisconsin if the Soviets, Germans or Japanese hadn't beat them to it. The Russians would still like to. I think they have a cheese shortage. The Chinese still has a very large military. I only use the military because its "trust fund" is always full...............and its one of the few things conservatives believe that "funding is never a problem".........and are free to spend trillions of our fiat money on and not increase anyones taxes.. broken clock theory.........

11-21-2012, 04:38 PM	#8
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by jeffkrol I only use the military because its "trust fund" is always full............... It doesn't have a "trust fund." However, China isn't building just malls. They have built "Ghost" cities in various areas of China. Ordos, China: A Modern Ghost Town - Photo Essays - TIME and Adrienne Arsenault: Ghost city shows cracks in China's urban planning - World - CBC News They have even constructed one in Angola. Photos Of A Massive Chinese-Built Ghost Town In Angola - Business Insider

11-21-2012, 04:41 PM	#9
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by Blue Well, I don't agree with certain military actions. However, if it weren't for a military, China would be building malls in Wisconsin if the Soviets, Germans or Japanese hadn't beat them to it. The Russians would still like to. I think they have a cheese shortage. The Chinese still has a very large military. None of those countries has ever had a Navy capable of that. The Japanese were close, but they didn't have the population or the resources to sustain their Empire building. The Germans over reached trying to take Europe, twice. The Chinese still spend a fraction of what the US does on the military. They have 8,000 tanks, but what good are those on the other side of the Pacific? Their aviation industry is a joke, and has been since Mao killed all the engineers and had farmers run the factories.

11-21-2012, 04:41 PM	#10
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by Blue It doesn't have a "trust fund." However, China isn't building just malls. They have built "Ghost" cities in various areas of China. Ordos, China: A Modern Ghost Town - Photo Essays - TIME and Adrienne Arsenault: Ghost city shows cracks in China's urban planning - World - CBC News They have even constructed one in Angola. Photos Of A Massive Chinese-Built Ghost Town In Angola - Business Insider The trust fund was in reference to soc. sec.. and the mistaken belief that a trust fund is necessary ect.. In other words every gov. program is not bound by a trust fund, nor apparently needing to be paid for... except as a twisted "selling point"........

11-22-2012, 01:27 AM	#12
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by jeffkrol and to think all those suppliers and people who built those "cities" got to eat for a day...............or week or months... I'm sure the global suppiers of the materials pointyed out the "folly" to the Chinese govmt.... and were led kicking and screaming to the bank There is no doubt there are a lot of people who made a lot of money doing something that never needed to be done, and with you economic model that is probably a good thing. Some people however think government has a responsibility to maximize it resources and ensure that the greatest good can be accomplished with the resources that are available. The question is not whether or not some people profited from the "folly" of the Chinese government. The question is could the money and resources that were used to build empty cities have been used to improve the lives of hundreds of millions of people? Was building these cities a good use of resources?

11-22-2012, 01:52 AM	#13
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by Blue But back on topic, what about those Ghost City links? That is very surreal given the state of conditions in places around the world. I think it would be fun to photograph the area. The waste is on a scale that is hard to fathom. One of the cities was built to accommodate a population of 14 million people.... NYC is only 8 million. What would it cost to build NYC?

11-22-2012, 05:55 AM	#14
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	I think of ancient Egypt, where the pharaos would engage in massive building projects. Akhenaten had a whole new royal city built, all new temples for the new religion, and by the time he died all of that was abandoned. From the distance of time, what was that all about, economically speaking? IMO this gets at the basic relationship between economics and culture.

11-22-2012, 08:11 AM	#15
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by Winder I think it would be fun to photograph the area. The waste is on a scale that is hard to fathom. One of the cities was built to accommodate a population of 14 million people.... NYC is only 8 million. What would it cost to build NYC? When the coasts start to flood "we" may need that city (assuming it is built inland)...............