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11-29-2012, 09:50 AM   #1
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Here we go again....

We have another causality of the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law. Here's the item from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:


The mother of a teenager shot to death allegedly over loud music told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Wednesday she is grateful for the outpouring of support the family has experienced. But the hardest days may be yet to come.

A memorial service was held Wednesday evening in Jacksonville, Fla., for 17-year-old Jordan Russell Davis, who died Friday night. On Thursday, family members will bring Davis back to Georgia, where a funeral will be held before he is buried, the teen’s mother, Lucia McBath said Wednesday afternoon.

The service for the teen came just hours after the man accused in his killed waived his first court appearance. Michael David Dunn, 45, was jailed without bail on a second-degree homicide charge, according to police.

A middle-aged software developer known for collecting guns claims he acted in self-defense when he fired at least eight shots into a SUV parked in front of a Florida gas station. Dunn had allegedly told the teens to turn down music, prompting a verbal exchange, according to Lt. Rob Schoonover with the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office homicide unit.

“I just fired at these kids,” Dunn allegedly told his girlfriend, who ran out of the convenience store after hearing shots, according to police. Then, Dunn got back into his sedan along with girlfriend and the two drove back to their Jacksonville hotel Friday night, Schoonover said.

Three teenagers were sitting in the Dodge Durango when Dunn opened fire, but only Davis, in the backseat, was shot. He died after being transported to a local hospital, police said.

“They were listening to music. It was loud, they admitted that,” Schoonover said. “But that’s not a reason for someone to open fire and take action.”

There were no surveillance cameras at the gas station, but witnesses were able to get the tag number for Dunn’s Volkswagen, leading investigators to the suspect. Dunn was arrested Saturday at his home in Satellite Beach, about 200 miles away. His girlfriend, whose name was not released, will not face charges.

“His side of the story is he felt threatened and that is the reason he took action,” Schoonover said.

Dunn has no known criminal history.

A visitation for Davis, whose mother lives in Cobb County, will be held Friday from 6 to 9 p.m. at West Cobb Funeral Home and Crematory, 2480 Macland Road. The funeral will be Saturday at noon at Trinity Chapel Church of God, 4665 Macland Road, Powder Springs. Davis will lie in repose at the church one hour prior to the service.

Interment will follow at Kennesaw Memorial Park.

“His side of the story is he felt threatened and that is the reason he took action,” the detective said.

Services begin for teen killed over loud music | www.ajc.com

Here's a link from Atlantic Wire: Is Jordan Russell Davis the New Trayvon? - National - The Atlantic Wire

Apparently Dunn thought he saw a few inches of what he identified as a shotgun barrel through the rear window of the SUV and thus felt threatened.

A search of the Durango found no shotgun.

I am appalled that a mere "feeling" becomes the justification for a shooting spree. And driving away after shooting eight times into a vehicle suggests a total lack of concern for possible consequences. Dunn's lawyer said he acted as would "any responsible gun owner" ! That is supposed to be reassuring? I own a gun, as do many of my friends, I can't imagine any of us doing this sort ot thing.

I hope that Dunn pulls some significant time for this atrocity.

How is this different from the gang-banger who shoots someone who "disrespects" him? Oh, I forgot! It happened in Florida.

11-29-2012, 10:04 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by grhazelton Quote
fired at least eight shots into a SUV
Possibly the second worst part of the story. To think that someone either need to or wanted to - place eight shots. This will be a major point in any type of trial - also balancing out with how much experience (or not) the owner of the gun has. But as the article stated - a gun collector?? But has this person also rarely seen a range??

Which is eactly why I thorougly test out every weapon I own. All I need is an accurate revolver to stand up against any fifteen shot clip.
11-29-2012, 10:28 AM - 2 Likes   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Possibly the second worst part of the story. To think that someone either need to or wanted to - place eight shots. This will be a major point in any type of trial - also balancing out with how much experience (or not) the owner of the gun has. But as the article stated - a gun collector?? But has this person also rarely seen a range??

Which is eactly why I thorougly test out every weapon I own. All I need is an accurate revolver to stand up against any fifteen shot clip.
First off, the term is magazine, not clip, which shows you are not nearly as knowledgeable about firearms as you think.

Second, let me know how well that revolver works out if there are more than 6 attackers - assuming you can be accurate enough with the first 6 shots, which is extremely doubtful. Unlike the movies, shooting moving targets while your adrenalin level is off the charts is extremely difficult, particularly if they happen to be shooting back.

There is a reason why police carry 15 round automatics and spare magazines.

To the OP, this, like the original case needs to be decided in court, not on the internet.
11-29-2012, 10:43 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
First off, the term is magazine, not clip, which shows you are not nearly as knowledgeable about firearms as you think.
And that sounds condescending to me.


QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Second, let me know how well that revolver works out if there are more than 6 attackers - assuming you can be accurate enough with the first 6 shots, which is extremely doubtful. Unlike the movies, shooting moving targets while your adrenalin level is off the charts is extremely difficult, particularly if they happen to be shooting back. There is a reason why police carry 15 round automatics and spare magazines.
I agree, though living in California I have to be content with extra clips . . . er magazines (they are limited to 10 rds.).


QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
To the OP, this, like the original case needs to be decided in court, not on the internet.
Nonsense! What do you think forums are for but to air one's opinion? One of my opinions is . . . I hope CA never allows concealed carry, much less a moronic stand your ground law.

11-29-2012, 10:58 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
And that sounds condescending to me.

I agree, though living in California I have to be content with extra clips . . . er magazines (they are limited to 10 rds.).

Nonsense! What do you think forums are for but to air one's opinion? One of my opinions is . . . I hope CA never allows concealed carry, much less a moronic stand your ground law.
Take it as condescending if you like, but it's like someone claiming to be a medium format pro, and then referring to his Brownie camera as medium format.

Since you live in California, you should be content to let the police protect you and give up all your weapons. After all, that is what you are allowing your politicians to (forgive the pun), shoot for. Especially Feinstein.

My point on the forum was to prevent this from turning into the fiasco the first case produced - especially before hearing what a court of law has to say. As OJ and Casey have proven, relying on the news to make your judgment can be detrimental.
11-29-2012, 11:18 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Since you live in California, you should be content to let the police protect you and give up all your weapons. After all, that is what you are allowing your politicians to (forgive the pun), shoot for. Especially Feinstein.
Feinstein wants the assault weapons ban reinstated, I want it too (semiauto shotguns are allowed, a formidable weapon). She is against concealed carry, I agree. She is against the proposed "Concealed carry reciprocity legislation" (honoring out of state CC licenses, which is also opposed by major national law enforcement organizations like the International Association of Chiefs of Police and the Major Cities Chiefs Association) . . . I agree with that too.

One rule we don't have that I'd like to see is allowing people to carry a handgun while hiking in isolated areas (if one has to carry it locked in a pouch similar to auto carry, that wouild be fine with me).


QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
My point on the forum was to prevent this from turning into the fiasco the first case produced - especially before hearing what a court of law has to say.
I don't know why you'd want to do that, it's prime forum material.

Last edited by les3547; 11-29-2012 at 08:34 PM.
11-29-2012, 11:35 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
like someone claiming to be a medium format pro, and then referring to his Brownie camera as medium format.
So what is a 120/620 Brownie then? I refer to them as medium format, though there are other things they may be called as well.

Interestingly, some Brownies were called Cartridge Brownies
http://kodak.3106.net/index.php?p=206
QuoteQuote:
Kodak's first 120 rollfilm camera was the No.2 Brownie in 1901. As film numbers as we know them today were not introduced until 1913, it was originally known as No.2 Brownie film. 120 rollfilm is the most successful rollfilm format, having now been in production for over 100 years! Some cameras include the word "cartridge" in the model name. This is because a roll of film was considered to look like a shotgun cartridge and also to help differentiate between similar cameras that used plates or film packs.
Unfortunately, there are no Clip Brownie cameras.

But with guns the term clip seems to be equivalent to cartridge, as far as those rubes on wikipedia are concerned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_(ammunition)

QuoteQuote:
The term clip is commonly used to describe a firearm magazine, especially in newspapers, movies, and on television. Because of this usage, the Merriam-Webster dictionary now defines a clip as "a device to hold cartridges for charging the magazines of some rifles; also :a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm". However, this usage is technically incorrect. In the correct usage, a clip is used to feed a magazine or revolving cylinder, while a magazine or a belt is used to load cartridges into the chamber of a firearm. In essence, the clip stores the rounds of ammunition before being inserted into the magazine, which houses the clip inside for use by the firearm. Most weapons that use clips, such as the M1 Garand as seen above, utilize the clip by loading it directly into the firearm.[1]



Last edited by Nesster; 11-29-2012 at 11:41 AM.
11-29-2012, 11:45 AM   #8
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See how easy we get off track?
11-29-2012, 12:06 PM   #9
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Although factual information is extremely limited in the OP links , this sounds nothing at all like the Martin case or a SYG issue.
11-29-2012, 01:01 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
Although factual information is extremely limited in the OP links , this sounds nothing at all like the Martin case or a SYG issue.
True. I'd wait until I see what his lawyer claims and what the prosecutor does.
11-29-2012, 01:04 PM   #11
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The guy is in jail without bail and it is not likely to neither be a castle doctrine or syg case.
11-29-2012, 01:07 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Possibly the second worst part of the story. To think that someone either need to or wanted to - place eight shots. This will be a major point in any type of trial - also balancing out with how much experience (or not) the owner of the gun has. But as the article stated - a gun collector?? But has this person also rarely seen a range??

Which is eactly why I thorougly test out every weapon I own. All I need is an accurate revolver to stand up against any fifteen shot clip.
Collecting firearms doesn't necessarily mean that said firearm ever gets shot. For example, if I had an original Colt Walker, I would let very few people touch it much less fire it. Same thing with one of John Dillinger's 1911a1's. Furthermore, most typical news articles are written by people that know much about the law nor firearms.

QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
And that sounds condescending to me.




I agree, though living in California I have to be content with extra clips . . . er magazines (they are limited to 10 rds.).




Nonsense! What do you think forums are for but to air one's opinion? One of my opinions is . . . I hope CA never allows concealed carry, much less a moronic stand your ground law.
Actually, Cali does allow CC but it is very hard to get them. Furthermore, Cali has actually had self defense laws based on case law going back to the 1800s. The problem is that even though you shoot an attempted murderer or rapist in your bedroom, they or their family can sue you for damages in civil court. BTW, actually had a CC when I lived in Cali.

Edit: The magazine vs. clip is a statement of fact unless Medium Format is going to pull M1 Garand like old Clint did in Grand Torino which takes 8 rounds of .30-06 clipped and loaded from the top.

QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
Feinstein wants the assault weapons ban reinstated, I want it too (semiauto shotguns are allowed, a formidable weapon). She is against concealed carry, I agree. She is against the proposed "Concealed carry reciprocity legislation" (honoring out of state CC licenses, which is also opposed by major national law enforcement organizations like the International Association of Chiefs of Police and the Major Cities Chiefs Association) . . . I agree with that too.

I am glad, however, that I can own handguns, and that I can legally carry a gun in my car. One rule we don't have that I'd like to see is allowing people to carry a handgun while hiking in isolated areas (if one has to carry it locked in a pouch similar to auto carry, that wouild be fine with me). I think the recent effort to limit ammunition sales was stupid.




I don't know why you'd want to do that, it's prime forum material.
There are many police in the U.S.A. that are pro carry. Some of the agencies including the Fraternal Order of Police etc. get chewed out when they call me soliciting donations due to their political meddling in local elections as well as their gun ban agenda. I do donate to the Florida Hwy patrol and sheriff's organizations.
Cali doesn't recognize many state's ccw in reciprocity. Cali does have a "may issue" permit but they are very hard to get to next to impossible depending on where in Cali you live. Also, a piece locked in a box in a back pack is next to useless if you are attacked.

Last edited by Blue; 11-29-2012 at 01:39 PM.
11-29-2012, 01:19 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
One rule we don't have that I'd like to see is allowing people to carry a handgun while hiking in isolated areas (if one has to carry it locked in a pouch similar to auto carry, that wouild be fine with me).
In my state you can, if it is not concealed. You do sort of feel like you are in the old west when you meet another hiker backpacking and both of you have a revolver on the hip.
11-29-2012, 04:07 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
...As OJ and Casey have proven, relying on the news to make your judgment can be detrimental.
Detrimental as to how? Limiting critical thinking based upon a hypothesis? Anyone that doesn't recognize the filter of the media is not thinking critically. That much I can agree upon.
11-29-2012, 04:13 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
First off, the term is magazine, not clip, which shows you are not nearly as knowledgeable about firearms as you think
And some people call f-stop - aperature. Yet few people also know what f-stop stands for.

And in my almost forty years of firing more guns than I can count… Most people throughout the world call the device which hold the ammunition in a semi-automatic (or even a fully automatic one) a clip. Up until very recently even the USMC has that exact word (clip) in most of it's training manuals - from the basic training guide to also numerous other training guides about specific models of weapons
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